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Author Topic: God, the Father  (Read 9452 times)

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judith collier

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2010, 03:15:39 PM »

You would think from your replies that I said something about the Father being under the Son or something. All I questioned was the CREATION of Jesus. Of course He comes from the Father, He is the WORD of the Father.
COL, 3 vs 13-15 says Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
That is not physical, but spiritual, the Father has no image, He is Spirit.
Likewise we are born into the image of God through the workings of Christ, the firstborn in the family of God. I do not think there is more than one God for heaven's sake.
I just don't think Jesus was CREATED by God but rather is God, has always been God born of the Holy Spirit that comes from the Father and into the Word (Jesus) (made alive by the Spirit)
and we have the same Spirit given to us when we are born into the family by Christ.
Jesus referred to Himself as I AM so he was always there in the Father, He was the Word made flesh. Made flesh, the Word was made flesh. Judy
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 03:36:40 PM »

Quote
He was the Word made flesh. Made flesh, the Word was made flesh.

Of course The Word was made flesh. Whosoever denies this, is anti-christ.

2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers have gone out into the world. They refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. Any such person is a deceiver and an antichrist.

We are as the first Adam with the last Adamís quickening Spirit within us.

We are not the Word made flesh.

Bottom line ~ We are as the flesh of the first Adam that is overcome by the Spirit of the last Adam in us.
We are a new creation both from, by and of God ~ a Work of God in progress. :)

Arc
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2010, 04:43:30 PM »

We throw these words 'created by' and 'came out of' like we know what we're talking about.  Why 'literalize' what is Spiritual, and figurative language to boot?  Ray teaches that God is LIKE Father to Jesus Christ, not LITERALLY Father.  If literal, then where is the mother?  The truth is, the relationship is not LESS than Father/Son because it is not literal, but MORE THAN Father/Son.  Those are the best words to 'describe' what the relationship is like, just as 'wind' is the best word to describe Spirit.

We can believe and trust ALL the scripture that tells us who the Son is.  We do not have to pick and choose.  But if we think we can fully understand them in flesh and AS LITERAL, then we're in for a very bumpy ride.  

If you have problems with the truth that Jesus was/is created, perhaps you have too limited a view of "Creation".  But I don't condemn because not one of us has perfect understanding, just idols of the heart.  That's the way I see it.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:05:51 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Samson

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2010, 05:09:10 PM »

Kat, help me here. If Jesus is the WORD of God made flesh, then he was always with God. He is God. I don't believe He was created by the Father but being the Father's WORD He always existed within the Father, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Father always existed, if not then tell me who or what created Him. Whatever is said of the Father can also be said of the Son. One in Being with the Father. Always!
Have to go now but anticipate your answer, Thanks ahead of time as you always do such a good job. Judy

Judy,

        Also, to add to my previous Post, just as a side note; there was a Thread at General Discussions dating 08/13/08 entitled: John. 1-5, started by Roy Monis(He's no longer a member), you might want to check that out. Apparently, Roy felt there was difference between Created or Begotten in reference to Christ. Roy felt Christ always existed like The Father and seemed to forget that the word "Eternal" is not in the Bible, at least it's not supposed to be and applied a verse that had it to Christ. Well, there were some good replies from that old thread.

                                       Kind Regards, Samson.
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judith collier

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2010, 05:34:02 PM »

O.K, yes, Arc, I do not think we are the Word made flesh.
John, I see where you are coming from. If the Father exists as complete, then I can see where He sent forth His Word. Perhaps it is semantics here. The Father would be the Cause of the Son. But if I say Created then why does God Create something out of Himself who is already Complete?
I will try to find that piece. judy
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judith collier

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2010, 05:53:07 PM »

I tried to find Aug. 13 in general discussions and came across only one that wasn't what you mentioned.  Help.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2010, 06:22:59 PM »


Quote
why does God Create something out of Himself who is already Complete

Joh 4:23  Yet the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Indeed, the Father is looking for people like that to worship him.


Who better to worship God than His Children who are as and with Him in Spirit and in Truth.  :)

God is our perfect, trustworthy family, home, destination and hope.

Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2010, 09:36:10 PM »

The scriptures clearly teach that the Father had no beginning.  The scriptures also teach that Jesus did have a beginning.  Where did Jesus come from?  Jesus came from the Father.  He was created by the Father, came out of the Father, formed by the Father.  There was a time when Jesus did not exist.  Then there was a time when He did exist.  His Father God made, formed, created Him.  This is pretty elementary stuff and easy to understand.  If I have said something not true, then please show by scripture what is not true.


Hey John,

I just want to step in and say that from reading Dave's post, he was not in disagreement with you. If you notice in Dave's comments, he calls it a 'truth' that Jesus was/is created.

I initially posted some thoughts as well regarding Jesus coming forth from the Father. But I am learning to not 'build on another man's foundation' as Paul notes in Rom 15:20. What I mean by that is if the truth is already preached, it is best to let that stand. I've noticed, lately more than ever, that in our zeal to express the truth, we can trip over one another and cause confusion even though our intentions are good.

In sticking with the original subject based on Judy's comment, it seems you both are in agreement that Jesus came forth from the Father. Whether another member disagrees with that or not, it does us no good to continue to harp back and forth. If a member is not pushing an agenda, let them be in disagreement. As you noted, it is only by the spirit that understanding is given...we can only plant the seed.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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judith collier

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2010, 02:11:20 AM »

 I read and re-read everything, examined scripture that was mentioned and----i think I got what you all were saying. Jesus is subject to and came (created, brought forth, etc.) from the Father, begotten of the Father, Jesus IS God, NOT ALSO, as two Gods, because that would be dualism. Just like trinity gets people thinking three Gods.
Now, I DON"T claim what I am about to say is true, just speculating here. When I said I believed Jesus was always, let's use the word PRESENT with the Father I have re-thought that (scripture) but just like an earthly mother or father the thought one day of conceiving a child is always in the back of one's mind, existing but not manifested. MAYBE that would explain Jesus referring to Himself as "I Am."
I'll bet someone will think that is pretty egotistical of me to come up with that but that's me. No apologies.
Never have I heard before this that Jesus was SUBJECT to the Father. But then again I was taught doctrine, scripture too but mostly doctrine.
Thank you so much for putting up with me. Judy
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judith collier

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2010, 04:33:16 AM »

On another note I read 4 (four pages) of this same subject and I just want to say I asked all the same questions that Roy Mosin or Morin asked. The patience extended to Roy was not of the same degree shown to me by a few here and I just wanted to state that. I did not like that, "idols of the heart" I have no idols.
Roy questioned CREATED also! I aquiessed because I don't want to argue. I still think CREATED is a poor choice of a word. But, not to throw the chicken out with the bath water so be it. judy
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2010, 06:07:07 AM »

I reckon I should withdraw that "not one of us has perfect understanding, just idols of the heart" statement and only stick with the heart I know--that's mine.

When I was a child, I 'saw' God the way Ray talks about in the passage Kat quoted earlier in the thread...as a wise old man up in the sky someplace.  Turns out I was wrong.  When I got a little older, I 'saw' Him as a tremendously HUGE and POWERFUL and ALL-WISE old man who could magicly be everywhere all at once.  Turns out I was wrong then too.

If those two 'images' of God--and every subsequent one since then as I've grown and learned--were not "IDOLS of the HEART" then I confess I have absolutely no idea what an Idol of the heart is.

I've testified in the forum a number of times that the changes being wrought in my life since I've believed the Gospel have in large measure come from 'seeing' God more and more clearly, more and more Glorified.  If Idols of MY heart had not been crushed, then I wouldn't have had room for the blessing of 'seeing' the Lord to the (admittedly limited, dark, incomplete, falling-short-of-the-Glory) extent I have.  

I hope that those limited, dark, incomplete, falling short idols will continue to fall.  I have to believe they will, because Scripture did say "...we shall be like Him, for we shall SEE Him as He is."  Don't we get a 'down-payment' on that promise now?

I don't know what else to say--which is surely part of the problem.  

 

« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 06:27:22 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2010, 09:52:15 AM »



An idol of the heart could well be the Mind of Christ that would surely be well pleasing to God would it not?   There is good leaven.
 
Luk 13:21  It is like leaven, (SINCERITY AND TRUTH)which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
 
There is bad leaven.

Mat 16:11  How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven (MALICE, WICKEDNESS AND HYPOCRICY)of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Our present mortality  is unequaled to  our love for Him, the true idol of our hearts, destiny of our souls and love of our lives. We are unmatched to each other. Our match is to His Spirit that is our Unity with Him in the bond of Peace to Him.  That bond of Peace is in unity to His Spirit which is our blessing and privilege in being His new creation.

God knows where each of us are in the scheme of His Plans and Purposes. If anyone of us speaks a wrong thing about God, then there is ample room here for edification, guidance and fruitful writings of which the BT site is well equipped. :D 

Seeing and tasting that the Word of God is good with  joy and gratitude of the benefit given to us by God to communicate knowledge of Him should find no fault between  us for more and exceedingly greater is our  benefit blessing and joy of exchanging words and thoughts of our God and His Spirit as we share testimonies, blessings and insights all of God and all in gratitude for the knowledge we share of Him that is given to us by Him.

 We are  new creations  8) :)

Our like-mindedness is not with one another or any other mortal brethren ~ it is with Christ Who is incomparably unmatched!
 
Our unity to Christ is not something we create, it is present, already created by our Lord, that He brings to us as He is Present to and with us in our hearts and individual homes of our souls that are in His making and His council.  How wonderful is that to contemplate, treasure and focus upon. We meet each other in that Unity with His Spirit and that is our bond, our blessing and our opportunity in fellowship of Him.  8)

Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2010, 10:31:36 AM »

An idol of the heart could well be the Mind of Christ that would surely be well pleasing to God would it not?


Arc,

I think we all understand your intentions with the above statement, as they are good. But I it can lead to confusion to refer to the Mind of Christ as an idol of the heart.

The Lord always refers to 'idols of the heart' with great disdain. Though the Lord tells us to worship Him with all our heart, He never says to refer to Him or His Word as an idol of the heart.

Remember it is out of the heart which proceeds all wickedness [Matt 15:19]. Every idol of the heart mentioned in scripture is a form of wickedness, never of righteousness.


Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2010, 12:09:13 PM »


Let there be no confusion 1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.  :)
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judith collier

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2010, 05:25:41 PM »

I was thinking golden cows here so I see what everybody was saying. Sorry!
This was a another hard one for me like when dying you are dead and not ressurrected immediately.
But, I cannot and will not deny scripture an when I studied it more I could see some of my wrong learning.
The trinity always confused me but in defense of those who originated it I can see the dilemma.
The Holy Spirit plays such a big part of our lives and with such power that I can see where they were coming from. Yet, again, how did they arrive at this.
I heard of T. J. Jake (I am sure you have heard of him) explaining the trinity once and getting a bunch of flak from theologians that this explanation was not true. He did the thermos bottle definition (which I thought was pretty good) you know 3 parts but 1. They said each part of the trinity was God, well there is a little preposition there, OF, which was neglected as far as I was concerned. The Spirit OF---- I would always get confused as to WHO I should be praying to.
Since I have had a more deeper conversion a few yrs. back I see where the WORD of God made flesh with Jesus (God) was the forerunner to the Father who is Love. I just pray to the Father now in the name of Jesus.
Am I correct here?
Judy
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G. Driggs

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2010, 07:57:28 PM »

The only thing Im sure of is that Jesus is worthy of worship, but Im having second thoughts about praying to Him after reading everything in this thread and a few other things from Ray's papers. It seems like I'm back to square one again. Gosh just when I thought I had this figured out. ??? I know that we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but what exactly does that mean? What does "in the name of Jesus" mean? Is this a phrase Im to repeat over and over again during prayer to the Father? Or does it mean so much more? From what Ray has said in his papers I know that the name of Jesus means a lot, and it stands for (among other things) Who He is, what He has done, and what He is gonna do. He is God, Jehovah-Savior, Elohim (God Family), He created everything by the will of the Father, and He will save the whole world, He is everything His Father is, yet He says His Father is greater, which I believe and understand. I have heard and read many times that everything is done through Jesus, and no one can come to the Father except by Jesus and that Jesus said He did not consider it to be robbing the Father to be called His equal because the Father has freely given His Son these things. I guess I do not understand this as well as I thought. I think about all those who prayed to and worshiped Jesus in the OT, was this just a type/shadow of worshiping the Father? I mean do we now have to make a switch from worshiping and praying to Jesus, to praying and worshiping the Father? Not that this would be a problem for me, I guess I just want to do the right thing. I guess what I really want to know is, what the heck are you all talking about? What is the main point of everything being said here? What did I miss? 

Forgive me, but these are sincere questions, and it is not my intent to start an debate or argument over who is right or wrong. I know I have been wrong many times, and I probably will be again. Maybe this is something only God can reveal to me? If so, no problem, I will wait. :)

Good questions Judy, I pray for patience for those who might answer us.

Peace, G.Driggs
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Kat

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2010, 09:32:00 PM »


Luke 11:1 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."
v. 2  So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
       Our Father in heaven,
       Hallowed be Your name.
       Your kingdom come.
       Your will be done
       On earth as it is in heaven.
v. 3  Give us day by day our daily bread.
v. 4  And forgive us our sins,
       For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
       And do not lead us into temptation,
       But deliver us from the evil one."

Here are a few things that I think is pertinent to this topic.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4433.msg34087.html#msg34087 ---

 Dear Wendy:
    The Name of the God of the Old Testament is "Yahweh/Jehovah."  Also "I AM WHO I AM."
    In the New Testament Jesus never called His Father by any Name, Just "Father." No man has ever seen or heard the voice of God the Father of Jesus Christ, hence the "God" of the Old Testament is the Word or Spokesman for God, Jesus the Christ (John 1:1-3). But, as Jesus and His Father "ARE ONE" (John 10:30), we cannot exclude One from the Other no matter Which is speaking or performing.


http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Let me be perfectly clear, logical, and Scriptural on this matter:

One plus one plus one DOES NOT equal one!

One God plus one God plus one God DOES NOT equal one God!

One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God DOES NOT equal one whole God!

The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is!

A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!

Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!

Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.

In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.

I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)

I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.

If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!

The above verse really doesnít need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.

How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."

Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"

Is this too hard for anyone? Is not Godís definition far easier and better than the theologiansí "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let Godís Word tell us. We donít need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesnít the Scripture say so? He didnít come out of the trinity and He didnít come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!

Jesus Christ said,

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!

And again:

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."
v
There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Fatherís office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.


http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm ------------------------------

Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE!  What does that mean?  Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE?  A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural.  God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY.  The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN.  John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?).  We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT!  That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.

The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures.  NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.

I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead."  Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD.  If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.

We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit.  Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON!  If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOMEONE ELSE!  Nor is it an ADDITION to me.  Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!!  God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit.  We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.

Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:

"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).

Now notice this:

"But I am telling you the truth.  It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).

Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?

What or Who is this "comforter?"  Is it the third personality of a triune God?  Let's read it: 

"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).

"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).

Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???

Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:

"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world.  Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER." 

After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again in THE FLESH.  And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:

"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).

Back to John:

"Remain IN ME.  I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5). 

We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:

"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).

And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US.  How is this done?  By the third person of the trinity?  No.  Christ said HE would be in us.  And Christ said the Father would be also.  But specifically HOW?  And why must Jesus go away first?

Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH.  Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.

Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'?  God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it?  I John 2:1:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.  And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!

There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!

When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!

"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD:  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).

"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IN US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13). 

It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH.  To deny that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!

OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD.  And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.


Sincerely,
 
Ray

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GinaMilan

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2010, 02:00:58 AM »

Dear G. Driggs:

You ask good questions.  I want to lighten your load a little.  Here are a few scriptural examples of praying to Jesus (there are many):

Acts 7

59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
60  Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.  (And that reminds me of how Ray says that he falls to sleep thanking God for all of his blessings -- he starts with his pillow, then his bed, then his wife and kids, so on and so forth.)

1 Tim. 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.

Rev 22:20 Even so, come Lord Jesus.

You can thank the Father ("I thank you Father that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to the babes") and petition the Father because you have been given the spirit of Jesus Who Himself is the Son of God, and as a son of God the Father by adoption, you can, by (in) that same spirit as a son, also pray to the Father saying, "Abba, Father!"  (Our Father, which art in heaven, give us this day our daily Bread (Jesus)...)

You can thank Jesus and petition Jesus.  There are many examples, you can think of lots, I'm positive.

I can think of one in particular where the woman was crying after Jesus for help with her daughter -- that was an example of a petitioning prayer to Jesus.

When Jesus healed the lepers and only one came back to thank Him, that was a prayer of thankfulness.

I think it's important to thank Jesus -- He has done so much for us, why wouldn't we want to thank Him; God the Father would not frown on that.

I found this when I did a search for "should we pray to Jesus or the Father":



  " 1. Christ is the "one in charge" of everything that affects my spiritual life (1 Corinthians 15:27), but I can't talk to him?
   2. Christ is the Head of the body of which I am a member, but I can't talk to Him?
   3. Christ is the Vine in which I am a branch (John 15:1-8), from Whom I derive all of my spiritual sustenance, but I can't talk to Him?
   4. Christ is the King of the kingdom of which I am a citizen, but I can't talk to the King?
   5. Christ is the Captain of my salvation (Hebrews 2:10), but I can't talk to my Captain?
   6. Christ is my Brother (Hebrews 2:11), but I can't talk to my Brother?
   7. Christ is my High Priest (Hebrews 3:1) He offered Himself for my sins, He is touched with all of the feelings of my infirmities (Hebrews 4:15), and is over the house of God of which I am a part (Hebrews 10:21), but I can't talk to my High Priest? (1 Timothy 2:5).
   8. Christ is my Physician (Luke 5:31), but I can't talk to my Physician?
   9. Christ is the Bishop of my soul(1 Peter 2:25), but I can't talk to my Bishop?
  10. Christ is the Bridegroom of the church (His bride)(2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:22-33, but the bride can't talk to the bridegroom?
  11. Christ is my "Counselor" (Isaiah 9:6), but I can't talk to my Counselor?
  12. Christ is my Friend (John 15:14-15), but I can't talk to my Friend?
  13. Christ is the "Great Shepherd of the sheep" (Hebrews 13:20), of which I am one, but I can't talk to my Shepherd?
  14. Christ is the "Minister of the sanctuary" (Hebrews 8:2), of which I am a part, but I cannot talk to my Minister(servant)? Why, it is amazing to even contemplate! It is much more logical as well as abundantly Scriptural to "TELL IT TO JESUS."




Aren't those marvelous, G. Driggs?  (I'm not going to post the link, since I don't think there's a copyright on these questions and answers. ;))

Last but not least:  When Saul was struck down on the road to Damascus, Jesus said - Why are you persecuting Me?  And when Saul responded, to Whom did he respond?  Jesus or the Father?

Yes, I think we can pray to both.  Try not to let it worry you.  I hardly think the Father would forbid you to speak to your own Brother.

Love to you, G. Driggs.
Gina

p.s.  Judy, I'm praying for you to have an answer to your prayers.  Love to you, too.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 02:03:15 AM by GinaMilan »
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margo

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2010, 12:36:03 PM »

I just want to thank you all so much, ALL OF YOU, for these truths and loving the WORD OF GOD.  I am just a sponge here.
This is amazing.

Love to you all,
Margo
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judith collier

  • Guest
Re: God, the Father
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2010, 03:10:30 PM »

Thanks Gina and Kat, just wanted to make sure. I actually wanted that to be the answer. I forget sometimes that Jesus is the Mediator and understands us totally as human, Him having been so but without sin.
Where is that vs. 'He who loves Me, my Father in Heaven will love him and I will manifest myself to him" That's where the confusion came from because of a little word----I-----.
When I had a vision once many yrs. ago and saw for a few seconds the Majesty of God I thought it was the Father but now I see that mistake.
That vs. spoke volumes to me afterwards and at the time there wasn't any confusion but yrs. later there was because thinking back I wasn't sure exactly WHO that Majesty was. Did I go back to that vs., NO, Stupid, YES. Maybe more ignorant because of lack of scripture training use wherby i could have corrected it and a priest telling me that only saints had this happen and wanting to send me to the Bishop. Then I was really afraid because all I could think of was martydom. I never went.
By the way, I think Jesus gave me that because of my horrible situation which I wasn't prepared to handle nor did i have anyone else who could have stood up to my questioning. I wanted the truth and nothing else would have done it for me. This fact of His great mercy has never ceased to amaze me. I mean me. Why would he have given this to me who is no more than anyone else. So many people suffering and he came to me. My little normal life had nothing to give Him, nobody believed me anyway, so, i was alone again but hanging on to Him by a thread because of this ignorance. That vs, would have answered that question WHY also, because I did always love Him. Judy
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