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Author Topic: Paul & Barnabas  (Read 12297 times)

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mharrell08

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Paul & Barnabas
« on: June 03, 2010, 06:47:15 PM »

Interesting read from the book of Acts and wanted to know you all's thoughts:

Acts 11:25-30  Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul. And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea. This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.


As we read from the passage above, Saul [Paul], Barnabas, and the disciples of Antioch send relief to the brethren in Judea.

Acts 12:25  Barnabas and Saul, returned unto Jerusalem, fulfilling the ministering, taking with them John who was surnamed Mark.

This is the next record in Acts of Barnabas and Saul. Some translations have 'return TO Jerusalem' while others have 'return FROM/OUT OF Jerusalem'. But that is irrelevant to this subject...the point I am highlighting is the fact that John (surnamed 'Mark') is joining their ministry.

Later on we read the following:

Acts 13:13  Now when Paul and his party set sail from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia; and John, departing from them, returned to Jerusalem.

For starters, this clears up the translation issue from Acts 12:25 (they came 'from/out of' Jerusalem...that is how John/Mark 'returned'). But the main issue is that John/Mark leaves the ministry to go back home (Acts 12:12 confirms this is his 'hometown' at the very least).

We are not told why John/Mark went home but we do see the effects of his dissension in Paul & Barnabas' relationship.

Acts 15:36-39  Then after some days Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us now go back and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they are doing.” Now Barnabas was determined to take with them John called Mark.

But Paul insisted that they should not take with them the one who had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work. Then the contention became so sharp that they parted from one another...



On one hand I could see Paul's point, as when continuing to read in Acts 13, it seemed as the going got tough, John/Mark got going.

But on the other hand, I could guess that Barnabas was attempting to give John/Mark another chance, maybe? We are not told a clear-cut reason, in this book of Acts, why Barnabas insisted on John/Mark re-joining the ministry, though we have one from Paul.

As I said earlier, I found this interesting. What do you all think?


Marques
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myms

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2010, 11:14:26 AM »

Following on from John's thoughts: Its interesting that Act 4:36 says 'It was at this time that Barnabas, the name, meaning son of comfort.........'. Its possible that Paul had the apostolic heart (authority springs to mind) whilst Barnabus had the pastoral heart (shepherd springs to mind). Just my thoughts! They should have made the perfect team - except when they disagreed LOL!
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Beloved

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2010, 11:18:41 AM »

It also may be something else Paul and Barnabus came to Jerusalem with money and because of the question regarding gentiles and the law.

Act 15:22  Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole assembly, having chosen men from them, to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, Judas (the one being called Barsabbas) and Silas, leading men among the brothers,

(Act 15:24)  "Since we heard that some having gone out from us disturbed you* with words, unsettling your* souls, saying [for you*] to continue being circumcised and to be keeping the Law, to whom we did not give [such] orders,

(Act 15:25)  it seemed good to us, having come to be of one mind, to send to you* having been chosen men, with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

(Act 15:26)  men having given up their souls [or, lives] for the sake of the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Act 15:27) "Therefore, we have sent Judas and Silas, and they are telling [you*] the same [things] by [the spoken] word.[/u]

(Act 15:28)  "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no more burden on you*, except [for] these necessary things:

(Act 15:29)  to be abstaining from [meat] sacrificed to idols and from blood and from [anything] strangled and from sexual sin. From which keeping yourselves, you* will do well. Farewell!"

(Act 15:30)  So indeed, having been sent off, they went to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.

(Act 15:32)  Both Judas and Silas, they also being prophets, by many a word entreat and establish the brethren."

(Act 15:33)  Now, after spending some time, they were dismissed with peace from the brethren to those who commission them."

(Act 15:34)  -  This is very interesting a missing verse ?????

(Act 15:35)  Yet Paul and Barnabas tarried in Antioch, teaching and bringing the evangel of the word of the Lord, with many others also."

Please note that John Mark's name was not amoung those snt by Jerusalem...Perhaps Paul wanted to follow what had been set up by Jerusalem.

Barnabus was a Levite from Cyprus and may have been more willing to take the struggling mark John under his wing than Paul was.

Perhaps Paul also sensed the need that things were going to get more confronational and John was not ready yet, perhaps he was being protective in another way.

..the end result of disagreement however was division of Paul and Barnabus...

No need to wonder on our part because All things happen becase the Father directs our ways.

Strange about there being a  missing verse...in 15:34  Perhaps that is there so all can speculate...oh that was the reason this happened rather than take sides

Beloved
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daywalker

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2010, 01:46:10 PM »

Hi Marques,

Yes, I remember reading that section of Acts many years ago.  I also assumed that the John Mark spoken of is the Mark that wrote the Gospel named after him.  I also read somewhere that some bible scholars believe that this same John Mark became a close associate of the Apostle Peter later on.

I have a couple of takes on this matter.  First, diversity is O.K. with God's followers in many things.  We must have unity with God the Father and Jesus through the Spirit on the major truths of God.  Those nonnegotiable matters of the Truth where the Father sets the rules and no deviations are allowed.

On the other hand, we can still be one in the faith, but have differences of opinions in a wide variety of things.  Some like the color red, others like the color blue.  You say tomato and I say tomatoe.  Both Paul and Barnabas were followers of Jesus, but they obviously had different opinions on how certain things should be done.  I'm sure they patched things up and had a beer together later on.  Diversity in life is good.  It holds down on the boredom.

My second observation or opinion is, I bet Paul was a real hard guy to work for.  A hard charger.  A classic "Type A" personality.  Someone who would crash through a brick wall to get a job done.  In other words, a real pain in the rear end to work for.  In reading about his life, I can understand why God selected him for the job he was given, when you read what he went through for the work God wanted him to do.  I know everything is from God, but God formed a tough little tool for the work that He wanted Paul to perform.

John


Just to add a little to the highlighted section in John's post, I found this passage informative...


Act 12:1  About that time Herod the king laid violent hands on some who belonged to the church.
Act 12:2  He killed James the brother of John with the sword,
Act 12:3  and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. This was during the days of Unleavened Bread.
Act 12:4  And when he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him over to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out to the people.
Act 12:5  So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church.
Act 12:6  Now when Herod was about to bring him out, on that very night, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and sentries before the door were guarding the prison.

[Peter's Escapes via Angel]

Act 12:7  And behold, an angel of the Lord stood next to him, and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him, saying, "Get up quickly." And the chains fell off his hands.
Act 12:8  And the angel said to him, "Dress yourself and put on your sandals." And he did so. And he said to him, "Wrap your cloak around you and follow me."
Act 12:9  And he went out and followed him. He did not know that what was being done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision.
Act 12:10  When they had passed the first and the second guard, they came to the iron gate leading into the city. It opened for them of its own accord, and they went out and went along one street, and immediately the angel left him.

[Peter goes to John Mark's house to hide from Herod]

Act 12:11  When Peter came to himself, he said, "Now I am sure that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from the hand of Herod and from all that the Jewish people were expecting."
Act 12:12  When he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose other name was Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.
Act 12:13  And when he knocked at the door of the gateway, a servant girl named Rhoda came to answer.
Act 12:14  Recognizing Peter's voice, in her joy she did not open the gate but ran in and reported that Peter was standing at the gate.
Act 12:15  They said to her, "You are out of your mind." But she kept insisting that it was so, and they kept saying, "It is his angel!"
Act 12:16  But Peter continued knocking, and when they opened, they saw him and were amazed.
Act 12:17  But motioning to them with his hand to be silent, he described to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, "Tell these things to James and to the brothers." Then he departed and went to another place.
Act 12:18  Now when day came, there was no little disturbance among the soldiers over what had become of Peter.
Act 12:19  And after Herod searched for him and did not find him, he examined the sentries and ordered that they should be put to death. Then he went down from Judea to Caesarea and spent time there.



So, after Peter's escape from being prisoner to King Herod, he hid at John Mark's house. Don't know that that necessarily 'confirms' that he later became an 'official' associate of Peter, but it does show that must've had a close relationship--seeing that Peter trusted him and his family for protection.


Food for thought.

Daywalker  8)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2010, 11:10:39 AM »

Hi Marques

These are some of my thoughts.

I see the Scriptures regarding both Paul and Barnabas as an admonition to us for our edification, encouragement and insight. We know that God is Sovereign and worked out the circumstances between Barnabas and Paul, just as He does now with our intimate and personal associations, fellowships, attachments and circumstances.

The Scripture you present Marques is : But Paul insisted that they should not take with them the one who had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work. Then the contention became so sharp that they parted from one another... Acts 15:36-39

God had a great Purpose in separating Paul and Barnabas.
 
God’s Plan was to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles through rejection by the Jews. This is expounded by Paul to the Romans in Chapter 11.  God shutting up all in unbelief… Rom 11:32  For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all.

What are the qualifications to be saved?  You have to be lost.  We’re all lost.  It’s apollumi - destroyed, perished, lost, you see.  If you fit that category, and we all do, guess what?  Christ came to save you!  L Ray Smith. Ref Does All mean All / Biblestudy Sept_ 2007

 …Paul and Barnabas preached THE Gospel. Not some other Gospel but the one and only Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:19  for I through law, did die, (Rom 7:6  and now we have ceased from the law, that being dead in which we were held, so that we may serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter) that to God I may live;( Rom 8:2  for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;)

It is the work of God who is supplying His Spirit, and leading and working mighty acts of works Of Faith.

God  divided Paul and Barnabas.

God  Planned, and God  caused their separation  and sent the cause to establish their separation to the Purpose of His Plan for His Work. The Work of God is always perfect.

 Act 13:2  As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called THEM. ( God called THEM, BOTH Saul AND Barnabas. Why? For THE WORK….Who’s Work? GODS WORK!)

The Work God does is deep.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34  For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
Rom 11:35  Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?
Rom 11:36  For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen
.

God caused a serious disagreement between Paul and Barnabas.

Act 15:39  So there arose a serious disagreement between them, which resulted in their parting from one another, Barnabas taking Mark and setting sail for Cyprus. - 1912 Weymouth New Testament.

This disagreement that resulted in the parting of the ways between Barnabas and Saul, was the express declared Will of God as FORETOLD

 Act 13:2  As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called THEM.
"………….. ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11). 8)

Rom 8:28  And we know that GOD works all things together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I think what myms observes that Barnabas, the name meaning son of comfort and what John ( of Kentucky  :D) observes of Paul, makes sense.  :)

Paul being  "type A personality",as said in Isaiah, comparing spiritual with spiritual.

Isa 49:2  And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isa 49:3  And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I WILL BE GLORIFIED.


Some Brothers bring comfort. Others bring Fire! :) Brimstone and fire...Barnabas and Paul....all in a Pond of the LOF :)


Arc
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 12:01:03 PM by Arcturus »
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judith collier

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2010, 05:59:08 PM »

Amen Arc, reminds me of Matthew 10 vs.42 Even giving a drink of water to a little one in the name of a disciple will get a reward. I know it is not in me to teach, I have tried it and it's not pretty. It always came back to bite me so i figured it out fairly quick. I need teachers but I do know the mercy of the Lord, of this I am confident.
It is a working Spirit body, isn't it. I used to wish I could do more but have learned contentment being what I am, a joint in the little finger. Love, judy
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2010, 06:25:12 PM »

Hey Judy

I know I am not a teacher either so you aren’t alone!  :D

I see the wisdom, protection and comfort we can draw in BT that puts boundaries past which we are prohibited to teach. This is wonderfully supportive and demonstrative of our “peculiar people” fellowship here in the Forum. I don’t aspire to be a Teacher either….

Jer 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

1Co 13:2  If I possess the gift of prophecy and am versed in all mysteries and all knowledge, and have such absolute faith that I can remove mountains, but am destitute of Love, I am nothing.


Having the Fruit of the Spirit Heart and Mind of Christ is of more worth than having all knowldege! :)

Blessings to you
Deb
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Akira329

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2010, 04:20:39 PM »

Act 15:36  And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
Act 15:37  And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
Act 15:38  But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
Act 15:39  And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
Act 15:40  And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
Act 15:41  And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Interesting.........

When did this take place??
Gal 2:11  But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12  For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13  And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14  But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?


I also find this to be funny myself:
Act 21:3  Now when we had discovered Cyprus, we left it on the left hand, and sailed into Syria, and landed at Tyre: for there the ship was to unlade her burden.
Thats were Barnabas went with John Mark!
They passed right by it and proceeded to Syria!

John Mark was evidently an minister to them both during their travels.
But he broke off mid way and decided to go home. why? who knows?
But I can't help think that it hurt a little when he didn't continue.

Why did Barnabas even suggest that he come?
They went on without him, why not keep going?

Maybe Paul new John Mark wasn't ready for this type of work?

Antaiwan

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2010, 06:41:08 PM »



We have to go to the Scriptures to find the answers to your questions Akira329.

Col 4:10  Aristarchus my fellow prisoner sends greeting to you, and so does Barnabas's cousin Mark. You have received instructions as to him; if he comes to you, give him a welcome.


Col 4:10  Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. You have received instructions about him. If he comes to you, welcome him.

John Mark may have vacillated earlier on but later he grew to become a faithful co-worker with Paul and much loved of Peter.
Then in Paul’s final letter to Timothy we read:
 
2Ti 4:11  Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful in my ministry.

As Daywalker notes : Peter trusted John Mark and this is also affirmed as follows:

1Pe 5:13  Your sister church in Babylon, chosen along with you, sends you greetings, as does my son Mark.

Arc
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GinaMilan

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2010, 08:14:53 PM »

Hi, Marques

I know what my thoughts and opinions are, but that's not worth an anthill.  What saith the scriptures?  I've searched but I can't find the answer.  I am very, VERY curious what you think.  After all, you were the one who brought it up.  Would you mind telling us what your thoughts are regarding the dispute?

p.s.  I don't believe the John, surnamed Mark, is the same "Mark" spoken of later, because later in Colossians and Timothy(?) the one that is called "Mark," is not referred to as John "surnamed Mark," but just "Mark," as if the Mark spoken of later is Mark's first name, not his last or "surname."  The first name is typically how people were referred to, at least, it is in the NT, as far as I can tell.  I mean, Paul is not a surname, but his first name.  And Barnabus is not a last name, likewise Timothy and Peter.  So, yeah, I don't know for sure that John surnamed Mark is the same Mark found later in Colossians and Timothy.   But that's just what I think.  I'm still studying this out.  

p.p.s.  Scratch my "p.s."     Never mind!  I believe now it is the same "Mark."  (I'm no help at all.) ;D
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 08:36:59 PM by GinaMilan »
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mharrell08

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2010, 08:46:47 PM »

Hi, Marques

I know what my thoughts and opinions are, but that's not worth an anthill.  What saith the scriptures?  I've searched but I can't find the answer.  I am very, VERY curious what you think.  After all, you were the one who brought it up.  Would you mind telling us what your thoughts are regarding the dispute?


Hello Gina,

As you can see, I removed my reply because I didn't want to steer the thread into a discussion about which Mark was which. I have not read any scriptures that confirm that John Mark spoken of in the book of Acts is the same that is referred to in the apostle epistles. Names such as Mark, Mary, John, James, etc are so common in the NT, it can cause confusion if the people being referenced are not distinguished by another attribute.

My thoughts are pretty much what I wrote in the initial post. I understood why Paul did not want John Mark to continue in the ministry, it was because he left in the midst of tribulation. Obviously, it was not the most ideal circumstances otherwise he would have stayed. John Mark decided that he would rather be somewhere else than ministering with Paul and Barnabas. I agree with Paul.

But Barnabas does not hold that decision against him the next time they are to ship out. I think that shows a perfect 'forgive and forget' attitude, which is always easier said than done. In that regards, I agree with Barnabas.

I find it peculiar because I agree with both of these men's decisions, even though they have direct opposite intentions. Normally, it is very easy to see who is wise and who is foolish when reading the scriptures, but this was the rare time for me to see wisdom in both instances. So I found that very, very interesting.


That's all  :),

Marques
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GinaMilan

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2010, 08:59:21 PM »

Well, you could be right in that Barnabus (which by the way is his surname and not his first name) was taking on a perfect forgive and forget attitude.  But then that would mean that God made a mistake and that Paul was wrong and not forgiving.  Was it not necessary for John and Barnabus and Paul to part ways for a while till Mark could grow up a little?  If Paul had obeyed Barnabus, what would the NT look like?  Probably much different.
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Akira329

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2010, 09:35:19 PM »

I agree it is really hard to tell the difference between all the johns and mary's ect.........
The only verse that gives indication of why, is this one:
Act 15:38  But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

At first I didn't see the wisdom of Barnabas in the matter.
I totally sided with Paul.
I never considered to forgive John Mark for leaving a brother stranded.
I guess sometimes it reveals a something about ourselves. Would I have forgave John Mark?

The book of acts is such a great book when it comes to seeing the growth of the apostles.

Antaiwan
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
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mharrell08

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2010, 09:40:20 PM »

Well, you could be right in that Barnabus (which by the way is his surname and not his first name) was taking on a perfect forgive and forget attitude.  But then that would mean that God made a mistake and that Paul was wrong and not forgiving.

No it wouldn't, it could be simply a lesson for both of them to learn. While I stated I agreed with both about 'why' they did not want John Mark to continue, I did not say I agreed that they should have let this become such an issue as to separate them within the ministry.

Understand, all is of God. God intended from them to separate. But this could have been a lesson tool in humility for both these disciples, not whether one was right or wrong about John Mark.

 
Was it not necessary for John and Barnabus and Paul to part ways for a while till Mark could grow up a little?  If Paul had obeyed Barnabus, what would the NT look like?  Probably much different.

As Paul told the church in Corinth, it is God who gives the increase...it's not about who follows who or who obeys who [1 Cor Ch. 3]

Who knows if John Mark continued in the faith and grew? Again, whether Paul was right or Barnabas was right is not paramount...they still should not have become so stubborn as to split up. The ministry is to and for the saints, not the other way around.


Just my thoughts,

Marques
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GinaMilan

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2010, 10:51:32 PM »

Quote
Again, whether Paul was right or Barnabas was right is not paramount...they still should not have become so stubborn as to split up.


I'm sorry, Marques.  See, I was under the impression that God directs our steps.   ;)

I'm sorry, I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but it is very confusing to read that first you believe that Barnabas was perfect in his actions because of his forgiveness (automatically leading the reader to conclude that you do not believe that Paul was perfect in his decision); then to hear you say that they both were stubborn.  (I'm sorry, I don't see where Paul was being stubborn.  Did Paul ever apologize for his actions regarding John Mark?)   And that this stubborn attitude (now on both their parts) was the thing that caused the (unnecessary?) split.  It was clearly only for a season, and necessary for the betterment of the saints; that is, if you believe Paul's reasoning.  These things happened, and Mark obviously was not harmed by it and neither was Barnabas.  If they did not split, if there was never any contention or division, then we'd have a perfect church body and everything Jesus and the apostles prophesied would never have come to pass.  And, thank God it's not here to stay.  (Sure seems like it though, doesn't it.)

Thank you for your responses, though.  I appreciate you taking the time, and I hope we can get past this.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 10:56:32 PM by GinaMilan »
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mharrell08

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Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2010, 11:22:50 PM »

I'm sorry, Marques.  See, I was under the impression that God directs our steps.   ;)

He does and I did not say the contrary.


I'm sorry, I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but it is very confusing to read that first you believe that Barnabas was perfect in his actions because of his forgiveness (automatically leading the reader to conclude that you do not believe that Paul was perfect in his decision);

I never said Barnabas was perfect in all his actions, only that he forgiveness of John Mark is a 'perfect example of forgive and forget'. Obviously, Barnabas did not practice this same outlook with Paul, otherwise they would not have split their ministry. So Barnabas is not perfect in all his actions.

then to hear you say that they both were stubborn.  (I'm sorry, I don't see where Paul was being stubborn.  Did Paul ever apologize for his actions regarding John Mark?)   And that this stubborn attitude (now on both their parts) was the thing that caused the (unnecessary?) split.

I would think it is stubborn to split up, after ministering for years together, because of how to deal with a fellow apostle. Neither budged from their own perspective and would rather split than concede in the matter. That was based on their opinion of one person, instead of the betterment of the saints as a whole. That is a spirit of stubbornness.

 It was clearly only for a season, and necessary for the betterment of the saints; that is, if you believe Paul's reasoning.  These things happened, and Mark obviously was not harmed by it and neither was Barnabas.  If they did not split, if there was never any contention or division, then we'd have a perfect church body and everything Jesus and the apostles prophesied would never have come to pass.  And, thank God it's not here to stay.  (Sure seems like it though, doesn't it.)

Paul and Barnabas has nothing to do with the apostasy that was prophesied to come into the church. They didn't split because of doctrine, they split because of how to deal with a fellow brethren.

Thank you for your responses, though.  I appreciate you taking the time, and I hope we can get past this.

We can move on from this topic, that is not a problem.

Also, we as a group should be mature enough in the knowledge that 'all is of God...God directs our steps'. Just because we say 'this person should not have done something', that does not automatically mean we are saying that God is not directing their steps.

Paul speaks of this same attitude because people assume this:

Rom 6:1-2  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Sometimes the means in which God directs someone's steps is to have another brother or sister admonish them in the faith. Most of the time, that's exactly how He deals with us.

Rom 10:13-15  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



Thanks,

Marques
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GinaMilan

  • Guest
Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2010, 11:44:20 PM »

Quote
I never said Barnabas was perfect in all his actions, only that he forgiveness of John Mark is a 'perfect example of forgive and forget'.

I never said you said Barnabas was perfect in all of his actions.  I said, "Barnabas was perfect in his actions because of his forgiveness" (I meant regarding Mark's desertion)"

You said
Quote
Paul and Barnabas has nothing to do with the apostasy that was prophesied to come into the church.

Okay, but I find that hard to believe.  After all, it was "no small dispute."  But okay.

Yeah, I think it's best to move on.  

A wise man sees the danger and takes refuge but a fool keeps going and smarts for it.

Thanks Marques.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 11:51:06 PM by GinaMilan »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2010, 05:46:35 AM »

I noticed this insightful comment in what you said Marques...

 
Quote
see wisdom in both instances

This little jewel lying in the context of your communication Marques, reminds me:

Php 4:11  I am not saying this because I am in any need, for I have learned to be content in whatever situation I am in.
Php 4:12  I know how to be humble, and I know how to prosper. In each and every situation I have learned the secret of being full and of going hungry, of having too much and of having too little.
Php 4:13  I can do all things through him who strengthens me.


After all, it was God who declared that His Will was that Paul and Barnabas were to be separate for the work God called them to.
Paul writes that he withstood Peter. There is no mistake which Peter this was. This was the Peter to whom Jesus Christ had given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 16:19  And I will give unto thee (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven:

Gal 2:11  But when Peter was come to Antioch, I (Paul) withstood him (Peter) to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Does the carnal mind sees division, fragmentation, contradiction and strife ~ the single, whole and regenerated mind sees God in all as did, does Christ.

We can remember that Peter denied Christ in times of tribulation. Jesus said he would. First the natural then the Spiritual.
Mark did not continue with Barnabas in the work and this too was caused by God. We can speculate on the how’s why’s and wherefores ….and it is the same thing. First the natural then the Spiritual.


Mat 21:28  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
Mat 21:29  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.


Mark later received warm affection from Peter who wrote of him as a Father to a son and Paul wrote to Aristarchus  infrorming him that Mark was to be welcomed. Are we not to do the same with Peter, Barnabas, Mark and Paul himself who may also be criticized for having circumcised Timothy in keeping with Jewish law, tradition and customs. God forbid we draw such divisive and fragmented judgments on the Work of God Himself who tells us HE authored the separation between both Paul and Barnabas.

It is not mans wisdom but God’s Wisdom and Truth that vaults to the highest Glory of our God. :)
Arc
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2010, 09:52:34 AM »

Hello Members,

Not to be melodramatic, but I want to apologize to you all. I did not mean for this subject to become a divisive issue. I never even planned to respond past my 1st post because all I really wanted was to hear you guys/gals thoughts. I found this passage interesting and simply wanted to hear from you all.

To clear up a few matters:

1. I did not start this thread so we could debate about who was right and wrong between Paul & Barnabas. To each his/her own with their opinion on the matter.

2. I did not start this thread so we could debate about whether John Mark rejoined the ministry or not. As I stated, I do not see any scriptures which conclusively prove the 'Mark' mentioned in other epistles is the same John Mark from Acts. That does not prove he did not nor does it prove he did not. To each his/her own with their opinion on the matter.

3. I did express that I thought both Paul and Barnabas should not have split up...again, only my opinion & thoughts. If you don't understand my statement, under the context that 'All is of God' & 'God directs our path/steps', then I can clarify in a PM as I don't want to continue to use a thread to express my own personal thoughts. It is not a contradiction, that's all I'll say for now.

Hopefully we can move on into maturity when expressing our thoughts on the scriptures. I would like for all of us to communicate with one another on our thoughts on the scriptures...not debate, just telling what one thinks based on what they have read in the scriptures and/or Ray's teachings.


Thanks,

Marques
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GinaMilan

  • Guest
Re: Paul & Barnabas
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2010, 12:50:33 PM »

No problem, Marques.  Apology accepted.

Here's something in Galatians that Akira pulled out that sheds a light on why Paul wasn't afraid to stand his ground with Barnabas and Barnabas' close relative, John Mark.  The man who isn't afraid of speaking and doing the truth at all costs is a grown man.  Paul was definitely not a reed swaying in the wind (tossed to and fro by every changing wind of doctrine -- see example below).

Gal 2:11  But when Peter was come to Antioch, I [Paul] withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Gal 2:12  For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Gal 2:14  But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all,

(Side note:  It's hard to know whether Paul first took the matter up with Peter one on one "behind closed doors" before bringing this matter before all.  All I know is, Peter said follow me as I follow Christ.)

As Akira said, it's also hard to know whether this thing with Barnabas being carried away by Peter's hypocrisy happened before the John Mark incident or after it.  It makes Paul's decision to stand his ground with Barnabas regarding John Mark (who got "carried away" at least in the book of Acts -- and being Barnabas relative, likely got carried away here too) make a LOT of sense, regardless.  

I fully believe Paul when he said that he was not out to please men.  And I don't see any reason to believe that Paul was "stubborn" in his decision.  I truly believe that had Paul not stood his ground, he too would have gotten carried away (and no, our NT wouldn't look different - I jest) and would be relegated to the likes of the Gospel of Thomas, or something like that.

Thank you.
Gina
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 12:58:23 PM by GinaMilan »
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