> General Discussions
Cause of the Physical and Spiritual
judith collier:
Thanks All. Well, after reading Job which I haven't done in awhile I think I will just shut my mouth.
As to those who appear to know the answers to Why disasters happen (and boy do they come out of the closet after such an event) I never know who to believe so I wil just put that question on the shelf too.
Like Kat said maybe death is not as horrible as we think it is. I remember when my mother-in-law was dying, the hospice nurse told us what to expect. She said after awhile God takes over. He must. After a time her breathing got further apart and then it just stopped. Not too bad.
And a friendly old bartender I worked with said to me after the death of a close relative, "God giveth and God taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord." True humility.
I forget sometimes the magnitude of God. I wish I could experience His majesty again like I once did for a few seconds, boy will that keep you in line. No questions asked there let me tell you.
Judy
Deborah-Leigh:
I did not realize then, what I realize now since you opened this discussion Judy.
WE are SO Blessed AND privilaged, to be among those elected by God to know and to BELIEVE, trust and hope in Jesus Christ.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Not everyone believes.
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
I can’t understand suffering. I don’t think we are meant to try to understand it. Handle it, be trained by it, endure, bear, undergo and overcome it …yes but understand it…
..I am so grateful that I can hope in life in Christ and those tears will be turned to tears of joy.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
I could relate to the above Scripture only after God brought me to my knees in an abject poverty of suffering. Just thinking that there is life in the intense fear, hurt and suffering that presented itself in my life, gave me hope in a time of acute darkness where the awareness that there is life after death, gave me something to look forward to. Holding on to the thought that there is a better life where love will not be crushed, maimed, discarded or destroyed gave hope to look ahead at that life beyond this one in which there will be no more tears. We endure this life for the hope of the life to come.
We are to also “overcome the world” just as Jesus did. Not by ourselves, but by Jesus “Christ IN us, the hope of GLORY.” L Ray Smith LOF 8 – TO HIM THAT OVERCOMES.
........ concerning the word “overcometh” in the KJV. Notice that it is not in the past, as in “has overcome” or “overcame.” It is in the Greekaorist tense. It shows a CONTINUING ACTION. L Ray Smith LOF 8 – FROM GLORY TO GLORY
But always remember that there is a promise attached to this suffering:
“It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: If we suffer, we shall also REIGN WITH HIM..” (11 Tim. 2 : 11-12) L Ray Smith LOF 8
--- Quote ---Maybe someone could direct me to a writing of Ray's if there is one on this subject.
--- End quote ---
Check out:
LOF 10 - A FEW OF THE EVILS THAT GOD USES IN SAVING THE WORLD
LOF 2 – WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL
--- Quote ---If for say hurricanes wiped out thousands of people and they have, then God is the original cause, right?
--- End quote ---
Right.
--- Quote ---Then God WANTED this to happen or He would never had created it in the first place??
--- End quote ---
It is natural to make that deduction but it is not as I believe our God is. Why?
“By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens: His HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SPERPENT” (Job 26: 13) God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His “hand” – at ARMS LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT. L Ray Smith LOF 2 – WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL?
--- Quote ---……why God would create this in the first place??
--- End quote ---
God is making children into the Image and likeness of His Son Jesus Christ. The process hurts. By contrast, the most grievous hurt and pain is considered a light affliction compared to the far more exceeding glory that God is working for us.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
--- Quote ---Is this just something we will never understand or do we give any importance to the reasons people come up with
--- End quote ---
Having the answers is not all we need. We need superabundantly, far over and above all that we dare ask or think, beyond our highest prayers desires, thoughts, hopes or dreams…Eph 3 :20
WHAT WE NEED IS
Eph 3 : 19 {That you, I, WE, may REALLY COME } to know [practically, through experience for yourselves/ourselves] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience] ~ 1 Cor 13 : 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and UNDERSTAND all mysteries, and all KNOWLDEGE, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I AM NOTHING ~that you/I, WE may be filled [through all your/my/our being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself…(Amplified Version)
That is what we need. :)
Blessings to you
Arc
GinaMilan:
Hi again
You have started a flood of thoughts in me. I hope they'll lift you up and all who read this post.
--- Quote ---As to those who appear to know the answers to Why disasters happen (and boy do they come out of the closet after such an event) I never know who to believe so I wil just put that question on the shelf too.
--- End quote ---
I notice the order of the events -- I think this is fascinating:
Ecclesiastes 3
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
. . .
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
I notice in those verses that it is a "season" and a "time" not an "eternity"; but in times of war it sure feels like it, doesn't it! Whew~
But I also notice the order of these things and that it all ends in peace. (And there was a great calm.)
Matthew 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
I know that Job repented because he realized he didn't know why these things were taking place, but that didn't mean God wouldn't reveal these things to him / us. Like Ray, Job's repentance was only the precursor to God opening up Job's eyes to fully understand.
Luke 12:2 -- There is nothing so covered that will not be revealed, or hid that will not be known[/i].
--- Quote ---Like Kat said maybe death is not as horrible as we think it is. I remember when my mother-in-law was dying, the hospice nurse told us what to expect. She said after awhile God takes over. He must. After a time her breathing got further apart and then it just stopped. Not too bad.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry, Judy. I've never seen anyone close to me actually die. That must have been very, very difficult.
--- Quote ---....I forget sometimes the magnitude of God. I wish I could experience His majesty again like I once did for a few seconds, boy will that keep you in line.
--- End quote ---
I do remember when my nephew Jesse was dying (he was 16 and had cystic fibrosis), it was extremely humbling for me. I knew that will be me one day. And I thought of Ray and how he said to someone, "Free will yourself out of that." I was like frozen with fear and in awe. And I was devastated when he actually died. As for me, the whole experience made me so angry (not completely like Job's wife angry, but dangerously close.) I was just smoldering. I thought, man, God! You are weird! Why this disease? Why Jesse? WHY! (Ya know? I was freaked out.)
Isaiah 42:3: A bruised reed He will not break, and a dimly burning wick He will not quench; He will bring forth justice in truth.
Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering (dimly burning) wick He will not quench, till He brings justice and a just cause to victory.
(After Jesse died, my sister told me this story about Jesse when he was two: After a strong earthquake in Big Bear, my sister was rocking him to sleep, but she was really shaky after the quake (7.4 on the Richter and she was on top of the epicenter), and every creek and little rattle would make her jumpy. She was telling me how Jesse detected how nervous she was, and Jesse (two years old, barely able to form a sentence) looks up at Patty and clear as DAY said to her: "Jesus is here and He will pick you up.")
--- Quote ---No questions asked there let me tell you.
--- End quote ---
And now, my flooded thoughts are now of when Jesus said, ask and keep on asking, seek and keep on seeking, knock and keep on knocking. I ran a search on Biblegateway for the word "knock" and this what came up. It's interesting in that my search starts out with scripture in Solomon where "Beloved" (Christ) is knocking and the search ends with Him knocking. I just think that is fascinating. I never noticed that before. (Have I lost you yet? Wake up, Wake up! ;D haha)
Song of Solomon 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved [Christ] that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.
And yet, we are told by Christ to knock.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luke 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
But I believe it is the Lord knocking (or working in us to will to ask, seek, and knock):
Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
--- Quote ---And a friendly old bartender I worked with said to me after the death of a close relative, "God giveth and God taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord." True humility.
--- End quote ---
That's true!
Ecc. 3:10 God gives to humanity an experience of evil to humble him by it. (CLV)
But again, I notice the order of this verse:
Deu. 32:39 I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: - and that's the order of it. ( Death is swallowed UP in victory.)
1 Corinthians 13:12 (Amp) For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [ by God].
John 17:3 And this is life eonian [that life we're seeking], that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Love to you and yours, Judy! (I have a sister named Judy!)
Gina
Phil3:10:
Judy,
You have some wonderful responses to your questions concerning GOD being behind all things both physical and spiritual. HE is because HE alone knows all. When I see the devastation and pain caused by an earthquake, hurricane or any other natural disaster, I ask the same questions. I am sure most of mankind does and has from the beginning. GOD is the creator of ever thing from the smallest virus to the vastness of the universe. What ever HE wants to occur in HIS creation is up to HIM. In my limited knowledge, I cannot question HIS reasons.
I do think Arcturus hit the nail on the head with the word overcometh. We who know GOD, have been called by HIM, and seek to love and serve HIM have the calm assurance that HE has promised us something so good that our human minds will never be able to understand. I do believe that suffering, just as JESUS had to suffer, will prepare us for the promises that our LORD makes. I believe all is of GOD and all HE causes, whether natural or spiritual, has a reason.
We have no promise that overcoming will be easy and all history vividly points this out. Perhaps, those that suffer, that die an early death, from natural causes are much better off than we who survive. I often think, if their is no pain in death and the next step is judgement, why is death so bad. Evil, pain, suffering and death will always be an experience mankind must endure. What we should glory in is HIS promises if we endure.
HE is so big and we are so small. My only hope is HIS love for all.
In HIM who is in total control,
Phil3:10
lauriellen:
gina, that was beautiful....thanks for sharing that...loved all the responses! =)
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