The Face of Evil

[Livelystone]

Greetings

I thought it best to start a new thread concerning the face of the monster that was "experienced" in the "23 minutes in hell" rather than risk hijacking that thread.

I have seen this same face but before I go into that I would like point out the similarities between this monstrous face and the ones you see in a lot oriental artwork & pottery like it is portrayed on the face of their construction projects or on vases  etc..... I think you all know the type of faces I am speaking of, so horrible that the normal mind has to wonder where in the world did the "artist" ever come up with something so hideous as you see within these "faces of evil"

Years before 2001 I had been for decades walked contrary to "being saved" that had taken place in the early sixties while being raised in a strict fundamental "Christian upbringing". I was "contrary" to the point of becoming heavily involved in a significant criminal enterprise that transported large amounts of marijuana from points "A" to points "B". During some of those same years I spent some personal time involved in the martial arts where I learned how to mediate and go quite deep into the subconscious mind.

So here I was every day rubbing shoulders (or going up against) some of the most evil and ruthless criminals as well as corrupted "officials" found anywhere in the world yet at the same time keeping a certain respect of "Father and Son" that I had been taught as a youth. However at the same time I did not worship any "god" in any way anything other than my own "desires of the flesh" or my own "idols" so to speak.

Back to "meditating"

There is a certain method of "open eye" meditation that involves the use of mirrors and sometimes with candles that will allow one to see deep within themselves IF THEY ARE ALREADY PRACTICED IN ADVANCED MEDITATION!

This type of meditation comes with many cautions to the perspective individual to be very sure of yourself before trying this......... a high percentage of first timers never return to the world that they knew before trying it.

Of course I chose to ignore the warnings because simply put I was not afraid any man and every day of my life I tempted fate thinking I was invincible not knowing that even in my sinful ways I was being looked after and well covered from harm by a Father who I refused to acknowledge.

The first time I tried this everything was going along just fine as I entered into a world not attached to the world that everyone else knows when suddenly and in the mirror there was a face that scared the living daylights out of me...... and this took place at a time when my reputation was that there was nothing that could scare me. I came out of the position that I used while meditating and literally leaped off of the ground so fast that it was if a cattle prod had been stuck up inside of me and then energized.

Even though it scared me like nothing else ever could I had to try it again and a couple of days later I did so that resulted in the exact same evil face appearing in the mirror that by this time I knew was LIVING WITHIN ME......... bummer!

For many years I kept that to myself...... after all as a criminal I considered myself as one who had level of standards much higher than everyone around me did and if anyone was evil it was always the other person and not me. Knowing more now than I did back then I know that this face or evil thing exist in us all and is spoken of in the Bible. However normally it is only seen when it is expressed in artwork by cultures who often enter into the subconscious world where spiritual things take on appearances that can be visualized in a way that a normal conscious mind can never see.

Other than the oriental faces that I described at the beginning of this post the "monster picture" presented in the "23 minutes in hell" thread is the only time that I have seen this face outside of my two journeys that I just shared with you.

Hopefully some of you might find this interesting as well as provoke some edifying posts

Blessings

Doug

[Kat]

Hi Doug,

Yes that was interesting indeed. Welcome to the forum 
I guess I can see how if you must put a physical face on the beast within you would come up with something like that. The carnal flesh beast that lives within us all, if we could see it would appear to be the most despicable image. We struggle to not let the beast that we normally do not see the image of, but see the actions of come forth. It is only with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we can ever come to a point where sin/beast will not have dominion/rule over us.

Rom 6:12  Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
v. 13  And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
v. 14  For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dennis Vogel]

Other than the oriental faces that I described at the beginning of this post

I'm sure you meant ornamental and not oriental.

[GinaMilan]

Hi Doug,

It's interesting you should talk about a mirror; I pretty much said what you're saying here:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11891.msg102963.html#msg102963

Ray wrote:  "Bill Wiese says the grotesque monster pictured above is exactly like one he saw in his recent visit to hell."
In other words, hell is Mr. Wiese's bathroom mirror, psychologically speaking of course.

What a coinkydink.

Gina

[Livelystone]

Hi Doug,

Yes that was interesting indeed. Welcome to the forum  
I guess I can see how if you must put a physical face on the beast within you would come up with something like that. The carnal flesh beast that lives within us all, if we could see it would appear to be the most despicable image. We struggle to not let the beast that we normally do not see the image of, but see the actions of come forth. It is only with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we can ever come to a point where sin/beast will not have dominion/rule over us.

Rom 6:12  Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
v. 13  And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
v. 14  For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Amen Kat.......... and thank you for the welcome.

I agree with you and in this instance especially so with the quote of "sin shall not have dominion over you(us)"

I see that "face of the monster" as the "law of sin" within me spoken of by Paul in the following scripture that lives within our flesh warring against the Holy Spirit given unto us ........ the battle between two nouns within us that both produce verbs in their own image that are then seen and heard by those around us by our actions and words.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I'm sure you meant ornamental and not oriental.

Hmmm.......  My Bad, thanks for the correction

I suppose that some of the faces found on totem poles or other artifacts representing  different beliefs of many different ethnic backgrounds could also be used as an example........ certainly I do not mean to point a discriminating finger at any race.

Hi Doug,

It's interesting you should talk about a mirror; I pretty much said what you're saying here:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11891.msg102963.html#msg102963

Ray wrote:  "Bill Wiese says the grotesque monster pictured above is exactly like one he saw in his recent visit to hell."
In other words, hell is Mr. Wiese's bathroom mirror, psychologically speaking of course.

What a coinkydink.

Gina

Hello to you too Gina

For sure a mirror can only reflect an image of something that already exists.

Is "original sin" an accepted doctrine here as something we inherited from our natural fathers?..... I hope so.

For how this evil face first got in me I think back to when Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That particular fruit was in its design just like the pomegranate seen on the high priests robes......... In other words the fruit that they ate from tree of eveil and good knowledge was very seedy fruit so consequently Adam and Eve consumed seeds of evil and good that besides following after the law of the seed that each seed brings forth in its own image, both of these seeds were then passed down to us who in our natural state may produce both good and evil........ just like Adam and Eve produced both Cain and Abel.

What I saw in the mirror was face of evil that unfortunately was a very well nurtured seed in me. Not that I did not have any fruit from the "good seed", but in me it was just was like it was between Cain and Abel with Cain being the stronger of the two. Thus for many years ruled my life that was contrary to a life that would be pleasing to God.....

However at His appointed time and through much tribulation over many years I found out that He could at His desire get me to "change my will" to "His will be done".

Fortunately and by the grace and mercy of the one who died for me........ I now have a much better seed in me that I yield to.

Blessings

Doug

[Kat]

Hi Doug,

Here is an email that Ray explains about the idea of 'original sin.'

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm -------------------
[Ray Replies]

Dear Barb:

As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you,

Ray

[Livelystone]

Hi Doug,

Here is an email that Ray explains about the idea of 'original sin.'

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm -------------------
[Ray Replies]

Dear Barb:

As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you,

Ray

Hello Kat

Well I certainly agree that many of the major doctrines of the church have missed the mark but IMO just because the church has a doctrine does not mean that by its origin from the church that it is automatically false......... and that is coming from one known to be highly critical of the doctrines of the church.

And I do agree that there are two types of death...... one physically that is well known to all as well as a spiritual death that keeps us separated from God while we still remain alive unto he world.

But do you think that if a person could be born into a bubble that would keep them separate from everyone one and everything that they would never know sin or would not be in need of a savior ?...... Personally I think not.

Man was made in the image of God just because both man and God are a spirit that has a soul but man coming into BOTH the image and likeness of God that is the same as what is said of Jesus Christ who is the "expressed image of God", is the promise of God to all of mankind....... or as someone here said "salvation is the fate of mankind"...... I do like that expression!

But if we are waiting for the restitution of all things what are we waiting for if we are only to be given what all of mankind has already been born into and needing a savior?........ or are you suggesting that we are not all born into sin as David spoke of himself .......

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Did Jesse and David's mother commit sin when they conceived David? ...... I hardly think that

BTW do you know of any scriptures that state or prove in accordance with God's laws on how to gain spiritual wisdom that man is not born into sin?...... I do not and I am quite familiar with the Bible...... still maybe there is verse that I have missed?

Death is by sin just as much as eternal life is the result of righteousness ...... we see this in the following verse

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/b]

Jesus had no sin and was therefore resurrected unto life

Why are we all born into death?....... the answer is in the and verse that you have quoted in your post that says because of sin we are born into death

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death is the wages of sin and that applies to all mankind including newborn babies who have not sinned after similitude of Adam's disobedience but were born into death because of sin passed down unto them through the seed of each person's father.


Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come

Children die because of sin that is a noun that they are born with just as David was born with it that is the same reason that all of mankind has an appointment with physical death.

Just as sin was passed unto all of mankind so was the grace of God who spared Adam from immediate physical death also passed on to all of mankind.......... so while we are under grace now is the day of salvation through Jesus Christ who was always without sin.

Sin is a rather complex subject simply because in some instances it appears as a noun and not just a verb recording some unlawful act committed by an individual that we normally associate the word with. Paul spoke of it in 2nd Cor 12 as the "thorn in his flesh the messenger of Satan" or in Romans as the "law of sin within his members" that caused him to do what he did not want to do even after being given the faith found only through the Holy Spirit given unto us.

The "law of sin" that represents a noun is by definition "a principality" or in other words defined it a life giving force albeit one that because it is a life that is contrary to God, it is destined unto death..... Thus death is passed unto all of mankind.

The fact that sin exists by law means that it is always present and will rule over us unless there is more powerful law put into play....... aka the law of faith that allows righteousness to be imputed to us just as it was to Abraham.

Because it is always present within man Paul said that when he went to do good evil showed up to him just like it did in the garden to Adam and Eve who were said by God to be part of what He called "good".

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Going only by the verses that you have quoted in the shared e-mail I can see where one could be swayed that sin was not passed unto all of mankind. However we are commanded not just to live by some of the words of God but by every word spoken by God...... Consequently we are commanded to review all of the Bible from Ge.1 to Rev 22 before any doctrine can be established as true or not true.

Thus when we bring in the other verses that are being presented to you in this post that have to with sin in man, we find it to be just as Paul said...... by one man sin entered into the world.

Blessings

Doug

[Deborah-Leigh]

are you suggesting that we are not all born into sin

Hi Doug

Your question directed to Kat, above, I believe Kat is well equipped to answer. I noted, the "born into sin" concept in your question that I would like to address.
Looking at Ray Smiths insights we can compare anything, be it teachings, ideas, assumptions or feelings and against Ray's teachings, the Truth can be seen quite clearly.

Ray identifies in the post Kat presented,  that quote : ...all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. L Ray Smith

Being "born into sin" is much to much a vast grey area that can lead astray as Christendom provides ample avenues into heresy and blasphemy.  We are not "born into sin" we are born mortal to be more correct. Christiandom does not believe that the soul is mortal so to side step that little aggrivation they make up a new phrase and tell us we are "born into sin".  I find it stupid to think that a new born baby is a sinner, born with sin already concieved out of lust and destined for Christian Hell when in fact a naive, innocent child, which Jesus says we are to become( not as in naive, but as in pure, true and without guile) if we wish to enter His Kingdom, is born mortal not sinful, carnal not spiritual and subject to vanity like we all are as we conform to the council of God that says first the natural then the spiritual.

I am happy to see that you seem to know that Jesus did not sin and I trust you also believe, as we do here in BT, that Jesus never became sin. Lust never conceived in Jesus Christ who was the spotless lamb of God. Jesus is our sin-sacrifice .

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Lust never conceived in Jesus Christ who was sinless yet at all points was tempted like us.

Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Welcome to the Forum!

Arc

[Kat]

Hi Doug,

My post to you was a email from Ray. There are numerous articles, emails, Bible study and conference transcripts at the BT site and here at the forum. I thinking you are not familiar with the rules? Here is a section for the to review.

If you are considering joining this forum before reading and studying  www.bible-truths.com, please reconsider.
It would be beneficial to all involved if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the teaching of L.Ray Smith first.

This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

This is just to help you understand what the purpose of this forum is. We do not debate our own ideas, as there would be much confusion and little agreement if we did so (like all the other Christian forums). Take time to read through some of the articles at Bibletruth.com, either you agree with what is taught and this is the place for you or not.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Craig]

Right O Kat,

Let me also chime in, nobody here is required to believe anything here, we just ask you respect the rules and refrain from posting things that run contrary.  I for one don't care if somebody here believes God is a little green man who lives on a marshmallow called the Moon.  If you wish to fellowship with us just keep the forum purpose in mind.   I believe and study a whole lot Ray does not cover, but I don't bring these things to the forum (if I did you would wonder what I was smoking )

Craig

[Dave in Tenn]

Having taken a few strolls through other christian websites, I'm more and more glad for the focus of this one. 

[Livelystone]

are you suggesting that we are not all born into sin

Hi Doug

Your question directed to Kat, above, I believe Kat is well equipped to answer. I noted, the "born into sin" concept in your question that I would like to address.
Looking at Ray Smiths insights we can compare anything, be it teachings, ideas, assumptions or feelings and against Ray's teachings, the Truth can be seen quite clearly.

Ray identifies in the post Kat presented,  that quote : ...all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. L Ray Smith

Being "born into sin" is much to much a vast grey area that can lead astray as Christendom provides ample avenues into heresy and blasphemy.  We are not "born into sin" we are born mortal to be more correct. Christiandom does not believe that the soul is mortal so to side step that little aggrivation they make up a new phrase and tell us we are "born into sin".  I find it stupid to think that a new born baby is a sinner, born with sin already concieved out of lust and destined for Christian Hell when in fact a naive, innocent child, which Jesus says we are to become( not as in naive, but as in pure, true and without guile) if we wish to enter His Kingdom, is born mortal not sinful, carnal not spiritual and subject to vanity like we all are as we conform to the council of God that says first the natural then the spiritual.

I am happy to see that you seem to know that Jesus did not sin and I trust you also believe, as we do here in BT, that Jesus never became sin. Lust never conceived in Jesus Christ who was the spotless lamb of God. Jesus is our sin-sacrifice .

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Lust never conceived in Jesus Christ who was sinless yet at all points was tempted like us.

Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Welcome to the Forum!

Arc

Hello to you Arc and thank you for the welcome

Was Adam created mortal or did he become mortal through sin? Did Adam have lust before he had Eve who came from his flesh and became what Adam first lusted after? After all he must of seen the separation that would have happened between God and Eve from her disobeying God yet he chose not to loose having her by his side by following her into separation through disobedience to God.

God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die that day...... and he did.

I suggest that he spiritually died that caused his boot from the garden and the tree of life. Then he went on to produce evil fruit in Cain as well as good fruit in Abel that was a direct result of eating the seeds of evil and good knowledge ......... He also failed to live out the day physically (a day is as a thousand years) as he did not live out the the thousand years of a biblical day.

What could of possibly been the sin that David was concieved in when he could not have yet sinned himself as he was still in his mothers womb?

The sin I am speaking of Arc is a noun that makes the spirit and soul of man (the adam and eve in us) unclean versus the Holy Spirit of God and the Soul of God (the mind of Christ) that are clean and able to ascend unto heaven where they come from. That IMO is unlike the spirit and soul in us that we were born with that are from the earth and are mortal and destined for death......... good thing as Paul says that without death there is no resurrection.

So yes I do agree with you......... the soul we are born with is most defiantly mortal........ LOL good thing, other wise we would be stuck with it.

To me that is what I see as the meaning behind when Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead" because we (Christians baptized in the Holy Spirit) have been given the Holy Spirit to live by and are to let the spirit of man in us who was 'born unto death" go ahead and die and take the soul of man with it to the grave making room for the mind of Christ who has no sin, to be our thoughts and emotions that controls the actions of our bodies.

I need to scoot but regardless of whether or not we agree on this point....... I stopped letting "points" become to big of a thing for fellowship to endure some time ago........ and this is your house so to speak.

Blessings

Doug

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello to you Arc and thank you for the welcome

It's a pleasure Doug.

Just briefly, here are a few thoughts inspired from your comments and questions. Further references can be found in much greater depth and detail in Rays teachings.

Was Adam created mortal

He was.

or did he become mortal through sin?

That would mean that immortality became mortality. Are we not supposed to go from mortal to immortal, carnal to spiritual? It is the order of God to go from natural to spiritual and not as Christendom falsely teaches that Adam was made in the Image of God that sinned. That is a contradiction. God does not sin. The image of God does as God does and that is, that God does not sin.

Did Adam have lust

The spiritual condition of Adam was that he was created with a weak heart, a carnal mind in bondage to vanity that for me is, prone to lust. Like a recipe for disaster relatively speaking or a formula for success according to the Plan of God.

Did Adam have lust before he had Eve who came from his flesh and became what Adam first lusted after?

I do not know if Eve was the first thing that Adam lusted after. The Scriptures do not tell me that. What  I do know is that Adam desired a mate long, long before God presented Eve to him. Was that desire, lust? What is lust? Jesus desired that the cup pass from Him. Was that lust to save His own flesh? I know, believe and seen expounded through Rays teachings, that God did not let Jesus sin. It was God who caused Jesus not to sin. It was God who made Jesus be pleasing in His Sight who was caused to yield to the Will of His Father and confess, THY WILL BE DONE! Adam was not Jesus Christ. Adam was carnal flesh and to use a expression Ray expounds, he was a "sinning machine." I believe that. By contrast to the first adam, Jesus Christ is the Last Adam and Jesus Christ was NOT a sinning machine. I believe that too! Sin could not be concieved in Jesus Christ though He was tempted in every way. Sin had no dominion over Jesus Christ.

After all he must of seen the separation that would have happened between God and Eve from her disobeying God yet he chose not to loose having her by his side by following her into separation through disobedience to God.

I think it is one thing to see a consequence and quite another to live it. Jesus knew He came to die. Going through it required the encouragement of the Father and the influence making Jesus victorious. He could do nothing without The Father.
That is covered in what Ray expounds through the teachings here. Yes. So, as you state, Adam lusted before and after and because of Eve, the condition of Adams weak heart and carnal ways were made manifest for our admonition.

God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die that day...... and he did.

I suggest that he spiritually died that caused his boot from the garden and the tree of life. Then he went on to produce evil fruit in Cain as well as good fruit in Abel that was a direct result of eating the seeds of evil and good knowledge ......... He also failed to live out the day physically (a day is as a thousand years) as he did not live out the the thousand years of a biblical day.

What could of possibly been the sin that David was concieved in when he could not have yet sinned himself as he was still in his mothers womb?

This is my point.  I think it more accurate to say we are born mortal. David was born mortal. We are all born mortal.

The sin I am speaking of Arc is a noun

Is it a noun or a condition. I think it is a condition of being born mortal, carnal, weak, and as you say, in the state of imperfection and corruption that has to be put off, as in putting off the old man. You say, adam and eve "in us" which can be misunderstood.  Adam and eve are not "in us" BUT we do have to overcome all conditions, all lives in all the OT in order to overcome our own carnality.

As Ray says:
If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are. Ref TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD. Truth no 8

that makes the spirit and soul of man (the adam and eve in us) unclean versus the Holy Spirit of God and the Soul of God (the mind of Christ) that are clean and able to ascend unto heaven where they come from. That IMO is unlike the spirit and soul in us that we were born with that are from the earth and are mortal and destined for death......... good thing as Paul says that without death there is no resurrection.

So yes I do agree with you......... the soul we are born with is most defiantly mortal........ LOL good thing, other wise we would be stuck with it.

We don't want to be stuck with it! It has to change!

To me that is what I see as the meaning behind when Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead" because we (Christians baptized in the Holy Spirit) have been given the Holy Spirit to live by and are to let the spirit of man in us who was 'born unto death" go ahead and die and take the soul of man with it to the grave making room for the mind of Christ who has no sin, to be our thoughts and emotions that controls the actions of our bodies.

For the mind of Christ who has not sin, to be our thoughts...is a contradiction in terms. There can be no I...but Christ in us...We are to reckon ourselves dead until such time as we ascend to the resurrection to life or judgment. In this life we are in judgment on the House of God now, or not, depending where God has us.

I need to scoot but regardless of whether or not we agree on this point....... I stopped letting "points" become to big of a thing for fellowship to endure some time ago........ and this is your house so to speak.

That is a huge compliment that I have to allocate to all the membership here especially those who are our mentors, brothers and sisters in Christ who help, inspire, direct, assist and bless us all here. So this house is yours too Doug under which we are all housed by our God.

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

• Blessings
  
  Doug

Like wise to you
Arc

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi John
In regard for your referral to what we are to apply when quoting the Scriptures, here are the following that I believe refer to the House, Aurthority, Rule and Sovereignty of our Lord and God.

We do well to hope to be found faithful.

Deu 10:17  For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Psa 136:3  O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
1Ti 6:15  Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 17:14  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Arc

[Deborah-Leigh]

...........As with everything else, it all comes from Him..........

Excellent! So much peace and rest when and as we comprehend the Sovereignty and Power of God and the absence of our free will. How totally significant and powerful He is!

Arc