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[Akira329]

In discussing this issue with my mom, she brought up Genesis 3:16
Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

She said this was a curse on Eve, I immediately said no and these verses came to my mind:
Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Also:
1Ti 2:15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

My Question:
Are these spiritual matches??

I'll have to finish my convo with my mom later till I have a firm grasp on this.

Thank You
Antaiwan

[mharrell08]

My Question:
Are these spiritual matches??

I'll have to finish my convo with my mom later till I have a firm grasp on this.

Thank You
Antaiwan

Hey Antaiwan,

I think we may need a little more information. Maybe by answering the following: spiritual matches to what? What statement of truth do you believe these passages confirm?

That might help solicit more replies from the members if we can understand exactly what you are referring to.


Thanks,

Marques

[Akira329]

My thinking was:
Symbolically speaking, is the woman in Genesis 3:16 a prophecy of the bondwoman in hope of salvation?
In Galatians 4 and 1 Timothy 2:15 are these scriptures referring to the hope of salvation?

If Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all, does she also experience great travail and sorrow in bringing forth her children?

It was really hard explaining this to my mom, one, that this was not a 'curse' or doom as she put it but hope.
two, that these verses had little to do with women experiencing children bearing pains and that men will never understand these sections of scripture.

Basically speaking:
I believe these scriptures prophecy of being born of the spirit and the travail that it takes for the chosen church "Jerusalem above" to accomplish this.

I hope this sheds some light where I was going.
Some direction would be greatly appreciated!

Antaiwan

[mharrell08]

Okay, I think I understand what you are saying. 

Now try to take this with the best intentions: We need to be careful trying to teach someone an understanding from the scriptures when we don't understand it ourselves. And not just understand it thoroughly, but to be able to articulate it to whoever is listening.

My thinking was:
Symbolically speaking, is the woman in Genesis 3:16 a prophecy of the bondwoman in hope of salvation?

The woman in Gen 3:16 is Eve, and the Lord does not speak of her hope in salvation in this verse. The Lord says that 'her desire will be to her husband who will rule over thee'. Eve's husband was Adam and the two were made one flesh [Gen 2:24]. And we know through Adam (the two made one flesh) came the disobedience unto death [Rom 5:12-19].

In Galatians 4 and 1 Timothy 2:15 are these scriptures referring to the hope of salvation?

In Galatians 4, Paul presents two allegories which correspond to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Ray provides a good explanation in the 12 Truths paper, under Truth #8 (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm).

1 Timothy 2:15 does not speak of the hope of salvation for women only or an allegory for women. Ray explains very well in the following email reply:

Dear Jetaime:  Yes, that is a rather difficult verse. I wouldn't stake my salvation on this explanation, but I believe it to be far far better than anything I have been able to find on the Internet trying to explain this difficult verse. Okay, with that said, here's how I see it:

    In the first verse we are told to pray and give thanks for all men; for kings, and for "...ALL THAT ARE IN AUTHORITY..."  Then we pick up this thought again in verse eight where Paul admonishes: "I will therefore that MEN PRAY EVERYWHERE, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." Next notice how verse 9 is then a continuation of this same though of making supplication and prayers for "all that are in authority," by stating "In LIKE MANNER also, that women....."  So in the same manner as MEN are to recognize and give thanks for "all men, for kings, and for ALL IN AUTHORITY," women "IN LIKE MANNER," are to do certain things which pertain to women--"adorn themselves modestly, learn in silence, not to USURP AUTHORITY over the man..."  So all men are to recognize and be subject to kings and all authority and "in like manner" the women are to be in subject to the authorities over them. Paul then shows that Adam was not deceived in the Garde n by the women under his authority, she WAS deceived, and "was in the transgression."

    So Eve did not respect properly the authority of her husband, and was in the transgression, just like women who do not respect the authority over them (their own husbands, fathers, and ministers of the gospel), are in transgression also.  However, or as Paul says, "Not withstand, she [women] shall be saved [notice they are not saved "by" something other than Jesus, but rather..]...shall be saved IN childbearing..."  But what does that mean? They will be saved if they have BABIES?  No, certainly not, for many women who "have babies"-partake of "childbearing," are not subject to authority and are likewise then continually "in the transgression."  No, what this is saying is that women will be saved in the ROLE OF MOTHERHOOD [childbearing] rather than by taking on a role of usurping authority over them. Strong defines this Greek word as "maternity, parentage, and THE PERFORMANCE OF MATERNAL DUTIES."  There it is.  A woman will be saved if she like men accept the authority over them, and perform their god-given role in [not by] MOTHERHOOD.

    Hope this helps a little.

    God be with you,

    Ray

If Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all, does she also experience great travail and sorrow in bringing forth her children?

New Jerusalem is like a mother in certain ways, but not a mother in every conceivable way. Remember, this woman is symbolic of the church of the New Covenant. Paul prophecies of New Jeruselam 'Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband' [Gal 4:27]. There is no travail & great sorrow in begetting the saints of the New Covenant but rather rejoice.

It was really hard explaining this to my mom, one, that this was not a 'curse' or doom as she put it but hope.
two, that these verses had little to do with women experiencing children bearing pains and that men will never understand these sections of scripture.

Basically speaking:
I believe these scriptures prophecy of being born of the spirit and the travail that it takes for the chosen church "Jerusalem above" to accomplish this.

I hope this sheds some light where I was going.
Some direction would be greatly appreciated!

Antaiwan

I think this was touched on in my comments above but let me know if not.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Duane]

I always took this verse LITERALLY and my mind assumed that God made changes to a woman's "delivery system" that made child-bearing more painful than originally designed.

[Akira329]

Thats enough for me Marques!
Thanks bro!

Antaiwan

[ez2u]

I would like to add something here which i believe sheds a  little more light on this  subject deepens the thoughts about being saved through child bearing

Rev 12:1  And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2  And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered.
Rev 12:3  And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne.
Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her, a thousand two hundred sixty days.