Jehovahs witnesses

[dre91]

I  met a  guy last sunday who is a devout jehovah's witness. he was overwhelmed by some of the knowledge that i shared with him about false religion, eternal torment, and man not having an mortal soul. he thought i studied with a witness. he invited me 2 one of their convention yesterday. it was long, interesting, and it made me feel more like i was in college classroom. they hope is in the resurrection and the new world where they will have paradise. they believe only their anointed 144000 will go 2 heaven while the rest will be on the earth. they believe the wicked will be annihilated after judgement day. they mistranslate the word destroy into annihilation. i know its the greek word apolium which is the same word for lost. jesus is able 2 save those who are lost. i know that God redeems souls out of sheol. they guy that took me 2 the convention treats like of a treasure. i can see pass all of that. they want 2 have more biblestudies. I know i shouldn't see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

[Cypress]

Interesting! On Saturday, I was accosted by a JW at my house as I was heading out to the beach. I received some literature from the lady. She was talking to me about family structure and how it's being degraded. She only spoke Spanish, and I can't have too complex of a conversation in Spanish, so she went on her way.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi dre91 and Cypress

...they believe the wicked will be annihilated after judgement day.

Question: How can God claim that the last enemy that is death will be destroyed? Does God lie? If there remain just one dead person, or if there is only one more dead person to come alive who remains dead, then death is NOT destroyed, annihilated and obliterated. God says, :

1Co 15:26  The last enemy that SHALL BE  DESTROYED IS DEATH.

Just one question. Just one Scripture and just one more blind false belief, put to flight or blindly defended in accounting you as being beyond hope and identified as not being worthy for inclusion in the 144000 club.

Be prepared for being accounted beyond hope
Be prepared for hot displeasure of not agreeing with their blindness.
Be prepared to displease them who have pleasure among themselves within their practise of errors and defense of idols who...

Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32  Who, knowing the judgment of God, that they who commit such things are worthy of death; not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Be prepared to displease them.  

You can afford to be gentle, humble and peacable, as you indeed should be.  Don't expect any answer though to just one question : Should 1 Cor 15:26 not be in the Bible?!

Arc

[Samson]

I  met a  guy last sunday who is a devout jehovah's witness. he was overwhelmed by some of the knowledge that i shared with him about false religion, eternal torment, and man not having an mortal soul. he thought i studied with a witness. he invited me 2 one of their convention yesterday. it was long, interesting, and it made me feel more like i was in college classroom. they hope is in the resurrection and the new world where they will have paradise. they believe only their anointed 144000 will go 2 heaven while the rest will be on the earth. they believe the wicked will be annihilated after judgement day. they mistranslate the word destroy into annihilation. i know its the greek word apolium which is the same word for lost. jesus is able 2 save those who are lost. i know that God redeems souls out of sheol. they guy that took me 2 the convention treats like of a treasure. i can see pass all of that. they want 2 have more biblestudies. I know i shouldn't see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Hi Dre91,

          Deborah(Arcturus) gave you a pretty good response regarding Death being the last Enemy and being abolished and there can't be any in that category if there's no more death(1Cor. chapter 15). Ray explains that: If death and the death state is done away with, defeated and is abolished and the last enemy, there can't be anyone dead from the past, present or future when that Scripture reaching fulfillment. Also , we attain victory over Hades(mistranslated grave).

         As some on this Forum are aware, I was a Jehovah's Witness for twenty years, there are other former JW'S that are Forum Members, too. Their(JW'S) main error is the belief in Free Moral Agency(Free Will) and from my experience, they strongly believe in it, perhaps to a greater degree than most denominations. There's an interesting Email to Ray by a practicing JW named Derrick. After reading His Email to Ray and Ray's subsequent response, I get the impression that this was the Derrick Oliver who initially studied the Bible with me back in 1982. The thing that led me to that Theory is His writting style and the way He wrote His remark and the order in which He wrote it. Anyway, I copied and pasted the Email He wrote and Ray's response to Him, as I believe it sums it all up, the extent of their error. Read below: Derrick in black and Ray in blue.

Ray,

I stumbled upon your website and read some of your explanations of biblical doctrine. I must admit, I was encouraged at your in-depth research and interest in scriptural truth.

The bible say's at Proverb's 2:1-5 "My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment; if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasure you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God."

I have come to realize, most people do not put forth that kind of effort in learning bible truth's. Instead, the rely on the interpretation of their ministers and rely on their own thoughts of what the scriptures mean.

Again Proverb's 3:5 say's, "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and He himself will make your path straight." As I read some of your comments, I thought to myself, "could he be? "He sure sounds like one of Jehovah's servants."

Then I read a reply to one of Jehovah's servants. You said, "I don"t have anything against Jehovah's Witness. I applaud their not teaching eternal torment, however many of their other teachings are just not true."

That is why I am writing to you. Your explanation, basically means that, you feel that God is to blame for all the suffering mankind experiences.

You say:

God's supremacy has not been challenged by Satan. Satan can do no more than what God allows him to do.

Have you ever noticed in the first chapter of Job how Satan had to ASK PERMISSION before touching anyone? Satan does not put the integrity of all men to the test.What the bible say's. First the bible book of Job did not say that Satan asked God's permission to touch Job. If you NOTICE in the 1st chapter of Job, Satan did not ask for permission to touch Job. He asked GOD to touch Job, big difference in what you say.

Actually that whole account describes a challenge towards God and Job. Job's integrity to God was challenged and Satan charged God, that He was mistaken in the way He created humans, and that none would want to do the right thing when put under pressure. In fact he claimed that under test they would even curse God! (Job 1:8-12; 2:3-5) Yes, Job's integrity to Jehovah was challenged. Then Jehovah with confidence in that integrity and knowing His own ability to recover and reward Job, PERMITTED Satan to test Job's integrity to the limit.

So yes, the book of Job proves that Satan does challenge man's integrity towards God. He was an outstanding example to all true Christians of integrity to God under trial. Satan does put the integrity of man to the test.

Remember our example Jesus? What was Satan doing to Jesus during his temptations? Was not Satan trying to get Jesus to be disloyal to God? Was that not a challenge of Jesus integrity to God? The answer is clear, yes it was.

You say Satan did not cause the rebellion in Eden. Eve lusted after the forbidden fruit and sinned. And it was GOD who planted the tree and it was GOD who put it right in the middle of the garden and it was GOD who made it so beautiful and desirable to make one wise, etc., etc. It was not Satan who done those things.

What the bible say's:

The way you put it, you feel that because God put mankind in a beautiful garden like home, with an abundance of food, that He is to blame for the rebellion in Eden! That could not be any farther from the truth. The bible says that Jehovah's original purpose for mankind and the earth was for man to live forever on a paradise earth. He gave them a wonderful home, the Garden of Eden, which means, Park of Pleasure. He gave them a wonderful fulfilling assignment, they were to fill the earth and subdue it ( Gen. 1:28 ). God wanted them to extend the paradise throughout the whole earth. They were to take care of the Garden and spread it out. What a wonderful assignment! Who doesn't like to garden? not many. Adam had other duties too. He had to name the animals ( Gen. 2:19 ).Yes, the creator gave mankind a perfect start, it could not have been better. What a caring God he proved to be!

So was it God who caused the rebellion in Eden like you claim or was it Satan, the one who you believe did not cause it? LOOK at the bible's account. In Genesis Chapter 2 and 3 it records the creation. It says that God made the Garden of Eden, like you claim. It does say that god made every tree desirable to ones sight, like you claim. Does that mean that, just because God provided beautiful trees good for food, that he caused the rebellion? as you claim!

Notice Ch. 3 describes Eve being confronted by a serpent. That serpent spoke to her, enticing her to eat from the tree ( Gen. 3:1,4,5). WHO WAS THIS SERPENT? The bible say's that Satan the Devil used that serpent, much in the same way a ventriloquist uses a dummy, to entice Eve to rebel against God. In the book of Revelations, Satan is refereed to as the "Original Serpent" ( Rev.12:9; 20:2 )

And notice it was only AFTER Satan had questioned about the tree, that it became something longed for the eyes and was something desirable to look at ( gen.3:6 ). That is why the bible say's CONSEQUENTLY, which means, as  a result of: ( after Satan had questioned her about the tree ) the women saw that the tree was good for food and so on. So it was because of Satan the Devils questioning Eve concerning the tree, that caused her to violate God's law, concerning that tree.

Think about it ! Adam and Eve had been living in the garden for some time now. Do you think that she had never seen the tree before? Not likely. It was only after Satan said that she would be like God if she ate from it, that she began to look at the tree differently.

It is very clear that it was Satan who promoted rebellion against God in the Garden of Eden, NOT GOD! And by you blaming God for the rebellion, you're saying that he is the cause of wickedness committed in human history, He is the source of all wars, the crime ,the immorality , the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease, which was the direct result from the rebellion in Eden. But the bible clearly states that "You are not a God taking delight in wickedness." (Ps. 5:4) Any one loving violence His soul certainly hates."( Ps 11:5) " God... cannot lie"( Titus 1:2 ) " From oppression  and from violence he will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes."( Ps 72:14) " God is love"(1 John 4:"he is a lover of righteousness and justice." (Ps.33:5)

GOD DOES NOT CAUSE SUFFERING!

In closing, I hope you prayerfully consider this letter. I also pray that in your studies, Jehovah helps you to see, He has an organization on earth, which is Jehovah's Witnesses, doing his will which is that all sorts of men come into an accurate knowledge of the truth and be saved by means of the Good news of God's Kingdom. ( 1Tim.2:;4 ) (Isaiah 43:10) (Matthew 24:14)

Sincerely,

Derrick

Ps If you want to talk more I'd be happy to.

[Ray replies]

Thank you for your email and comments.

I will briefly go through your comments:

You said, "...you [that's me] feel that God is to BLAME for all the suffering mankind experiences." Well, I would say "blame" is a very poor choice of words to describe what I believe regarding this matter. Blame denotes being WRONG or doing BAD or SINNING. God NEVER sins! A sin is a MISTAKE, a MISSING OF THE MARK, a FALLING SHORT of the ideal, whatsoever is not OF FAITH, and LAWLESSNESS.

God is not to BLAME for any of these. God is, however, responsible for EVIL and SINNERS, and everything else in this universe, seeing that it was He Who created it.

It does no good to hide one's head in the sand and pretend that God has nothing to do with EVIL. I heard Billy Graham teach the whole world from the national cathedral after 9/11 that, "God is not the author of evil." But of course, Billy Graham doesn't use the Scriptures for his authority, but rather the unscriptural traditions of men:

    Isa. 45:7,  "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and CREATE EVIL;  I the LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS."

God most certainly IS the creator of EVIL!

Contrary to the pagan and unscriptural traditions and heresies of Christendom, God IS responsible for ALL, because "ALL IS OF GOD" (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:36, II Cor.5:18), Etc.

You can't quote a Scripture that states that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and therefore conclude that God is opposed to anyone ever dying. God Himself makes WAR IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Have you never read ALL of the Bible:

    "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL AND GOOD?" (Lam. 3:38).

    "...an experience of EVIL hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Translation).

    "Or has not the potter [GOD] the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, on for DISHONOR?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

    "...I [GOD] will bring EVIL from the north, and a GREAT DESTRUCTION" (Jer. 4:6).

    "...Hear, O earth:  behold, I [GOD] will bring EVIL upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19).

    "And he said, I [the lying spirit] will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets... and He [GOD] said, ...GO forth, and DO SO" (I Kg. 22:22).

    "He [GOD] turned their heart to HATE HIS PEOPLE..." (Psa. 105:25).

    "...Thus said the Lord; Behold, I FRAME EVIL AGAINST YOU, and devise a device against you..." (Jer. 18:11).

    "O LORD, why has THOU MADE US TO ERR from thy ways, and HARDENED OUR HEART from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

    "...so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS, until he have destroyed you..." (Josh. 23:15).

    "...shall there be  EVIL in a city, and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Am. 3:6).

    "Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amelek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING..." (I Sam. 15:2-3).

These may not be verses for Sunday school children, but they are Scripture for the mature.

God "SCOURGES every son that He receives." If you know anything about "scourging" you know it is quite severe. Job's afflictions were QUITE severe, our Apostle Paul's afflictions were QUITE severe.

God created EVIL, and God uses EVIL. But, He uses it for a GOOD AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS PURPOSE! "Evil" has nor moral bias. Evil is only a SIN when men use evil against other men. When God uses it, it is NO sin.

I did not say that Satan said: "Lord God, may I have permission to beat the hell out of Job?"  I was merely showing that that WAS the implication of the discussion. Being "permitted" to do something is the same as "permission" to do something; there is no difference.  Now, notice your OWN words:  "Then   Jehovah...PERMITTED Satan to test Job's integrity to the limit."

Jesus Christ is not a man to be compared with us, as when Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness.

You suggest that I feel that God "...is to blame for the rebellion in Eden!   That could not be any farther from the truth. The bible says that Jehovah's ORIGINAL PURPOSE...." Again, I don't like your choice of words, "blame." Let's say "responsible."  And that IS the truth.

You mention God's "original purpose" suggesting that that purpose has now been thwarted and has forced God to go to plan 'B'!  Now that is nonsense!  NO ONE thwarted God's original plan. God is not going to "Plan B." Contrary to all Christendom, God IS NOT RUNNING A DAMAGE CONTROL CENTER FROM HIS THRONE IN HEAVEN!!!

No one. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE will ever thwart God's original plan! It is blasphemy to even suggest it! God has always known the beginning from the end. How and why, pray tell, would God have provided a Sacrifice "SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (before Adam and Eve were ever created), if God did not plan for Adam and Eve TO SIN and disobey and eat of the forbidden fruit, and thereby have need of a SAVIOUR?

We have to have a little sensibility about us. God Himself possesses a knowledge of good and evil. God wants SONS. Sons posses the attributes of their Father. It was necessary for us to learn of good and evil. They are both in the same fruit tree, as there can be no knowledge of good without a knowledge of evil. All of life's knowledge is a contrast. We cannot appreciate health unless we see sickness, we cannot appreciate food until we get hungry. When cannot know what light is unless we experience darkness.

Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense. He didn't really know that ANYTHING in the Garden was good--he had never experienced EVIL! It's that simple and it's that profound. God is truly WISE!

God has designed men to be spiritually WEAK. Men go against God's WILL--God planned for men to go against His will--it was His original INTENTION. But...BUT, absolutely NO ONE HAS EVER OR EVER WILL, GO AGAINST HIS INTENTION! Romans 9:19 should read, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood HIS INTENTION?" And the answer is, "absolutely NO ONE"!

You casually mention the Serpent, Satan the Devil in the Garden. Where did HE come from? Who created HIM? How come HE was permitted to destroy Adam and Eve? Where was GOD during all this? Christians put Almighty God on the level of human beings. With the same weaknesses, the same stupidity, the same inept plans, etc., etc. God IS NOT A MAN!   These things did not "just happen" in the Garden without God's KNOWING or without God's PERMISSION, or without God's INTENTION that they happen!

In your closing paragraph you use all caps stating: "GOD DOES NOT CAUSE SUFFERING!"  I'm sorry, that statement is just not true. Job was a perfect and upright man, and yet God TOLD SATAN TO INFLICT HIM WITH UNIMAGINABLE SUFFERING!

Read it again!

David suffered all the days of his life. Paul suffered like no man who has ever lived (II Cor 11:22-28). Jesus personally said how severely Paul would have to SUFFER (Acts 9:16). Jesus Christ SUFFERED (Mat. 16:21). And it "PLEASED GOD TO BRUISE HIM" in that suffering of death on the cross!! It is through MUCH trials and tribulation [suffering] that we enter the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:23).

And even more, Peter tells us that for the very PURPOSE OF SUFFERING we were called! "For for this were you called, seeing that Christ also SUFFERED for your sakes, leaving you an example [or copy], that YOU SHOULD BE FOLLOWING UP IN THE FOOTPRINTS of Him..."

Just one more: "So that, let those also who ARE SUFFERING [why? for what purpose? by Whose hand?] according TO THE WILL OF GOD commit their souls to a faithful Creator in the doing of Good" (I Pet. 4:19). It is "according to the will of God" that we suffering. I don't mean to be overly critical of your comments, but they just aren't Scriptural.

May God guide you into His wisdom and perfect will for you life.

Sincerely,

Ray

Well Dre91, that about sums up most of it, I don't think my answer would be clearer than the above,  , Kind Regards, Samson.