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[karenmarie]

I've been reading about the refining fire in this life if God chooses us, and Ray teaching about how you know, if you have persecution. That got me wondering because I haven't felt "persecuted" for my faith at all. Of course, I haven't been speaking out about my beliefs, much either, only when I feel led to share them and that usually when someone is searching along the same lines.

So I prayed that if it was God's will, I would know persecution. Weird prayer, I admit! But I was wondering.

Anyway, it did happen that I was in a group, at a church, a prayer group where we've been praying for God to lead the church where He would have them go. My prayers in this group have been pretty generic, asking for God's wisdom, leading, etc. This past week's meeting, however, we had a big discussion beforehand. Turns out that all of the prayer sessions have been directed behind the scenes by a paid consultant. The "leaders" of each little group have leading discussion questions to sort of direct our prayers each week. This bothered me a lot. So I spoke my conflicts, and then asked what was the purpose of the church anyway? Answers from the prayer leader: to have programs that benefit the church body and to evangelize the gospel and bring people to salvation. The paid consultant and team leaders have determined which programs to consider doing and want the prayer groups to get divine messages about which ones specifically to start. They're looking for consensus answers as the message from God.

I had so many problems with this answer that I started sputtering -- part of the discussion was about the description of programs and it boils down to "nice" activities for different age groups: commuters, aging baby boomers, motorcyclists, single moms, youth. Anything that will involve potential problems, like hosting AA, was off the table. I asked what about where God's spirit leads - maybe into messy lives, people who are desperate to hear good news and get real help? I said I thought the purpose of the church was to praise and glorify God and obey Him. Everyone looked at me like I was from Mars. The leader said we had worship at the Sunday service, that was enough.

Well, I felt persecution for the rest of the hour. Discussion points were lobbed at me hard. Prayers were pointed, and not at God, I don't think.

I have been raised to be a good girl, polite, not causing dissension, a woman who should smooth things over and soothe. All my upbringing and life's habits were clanging internally in me, red alert - back down, be nice, don't be cranky, be friends with everyone again. But I couldn't do it.

I've been thinking about this for days. I have known that I don't belong in the Babylon church system, but have been trying to do things under the radar, so to speak - just being in prayer groups for people, help with missions (physical help, not the evangelizing, which I can't do anymore as I don't believe the message of free will to choose salvation), going to teas, etc. But when I heard about paid consultants and behind-the-scenes group control using prayer to God to get what they wanted for the direction of the church, I couldn't keep silent. I felt like an old-time prophet, being really grouchy and cantankerous.

Anyway - I guess God answered my prayer about persecution! I'm even getting some from my husband, who really likes the woman who spearheads the program - he wants me to "see their side". I'm shutting up for now, but am trying to discern exactly how God wants me to handle my leave-taking. I know He will show me the steps, so I'm not worried or upset. But it was an eye-opening experience, that's for sure!

Any thoughts? I'm not sure if I'm analyzing things correctly.

Karen

[Dave in Tenn]

I've been on the other side when 'prayers' were made not for the 'ears of God' but for the benefit of the 'audience' and the 'prayer'.  A lot of times.  What a blessing God has shown you the 'dark side' so you can see the light more clearly.

2Ti 3:12  Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Remember that persecution is the RESULT of living godly, and not the aim of a believer.  

What is 'living godly'?

Tit 2:11-15  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Despite all the 'nice' things done by and in churches, their work is a form of godliness that denies the power.

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.  (Can you see it the preceding verses?)

[All the words in italics are or come from the same greek words.]

You've gotten a taste of the disfellowship of darkness and light.  One can't abide the other, and the other can't abide the one.  God's grace (divine influence) is working and will work in your life.  Hang in there.  Don't rush the Lord.  We've got to obey ALL the gospel if we're going to bear ALL the fruit.  

 

[Samson]

Hi Karen Marie,

                     Whether or not you stay a part of this Church System or Not, those who endeavor to live Godly lives will be persecuted. You mentioned that Your Husband is giving you persecution, even though your still in the Church System. All I can recommend is this: REVELATION. 18:4,5- " GET OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE IF DON'T WANT TO SHARE IN HER SINS, AND IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO RECEIVE PART OF HER PLAGUES, FOR HER SINS HAVE MASSED TOGETHER CLEAR UP TO HEAVEN, AND GOD HAS CALLED ACTS OF INJUSTICE TO MIND." (Caps are mine for emphasis) (NWT)

                     Also, Dave quoted a pertinent scripture for your benefit: " They have a form of Godly devotion, but prove false to it's power." 2Tim.3:5 (NWT)

                     My point in my above response suggests, if you can get out of this Denominational arrangement, you should do so, pray to God for His help. You would certainly be praying by His rules(Matt.6:9-11). I understand you have Your own set of circumstances to deal with, but if your going to get persecuted anyway, staying there, You might as well get persecuted for leaving( Just suggestions and thoughts, since you asked). My wife is a chronic people pleaser and smoother outer of things and I sometimes find myself doing likewise. It potentially can lead us to a trip to the Mental Hospital. We discuss ways to curtail that behavior because it leads to unnecessary stress. Being helpful and caring towards others is wonderful, but when pleasing others borders on the ridiculous, than it's time for self-examination. Anyway, the truth is, YOU GET TO CHOOSE.

                                Kind Regards, Samson.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi karenmarie

my husband, who really likes the woman who spearheads the program

Col 3:19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.


Col 3:17  And WHATEVER YOU DO IN WORD OR DEED, DO all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Col 3:18  Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.


Php 4:6  Be anxious for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.


Enjoy, appreciate and bless your husband and family. Continue to trust in God and learn about Him.  Only God can show you the Kingdom of His Spirit. 

Arc

[karenmarie]

Thank you Samson, Dave, and Arc for the advice and scripture. I hope I wasn't making persecution my aim, just wondering why I hadn't "suffered" any, but now I know...

I am in a sticky situation - I can see easily withdrawing from the very few things I participate in, but going on Sunday mornings is something that my husband enjoys. The pastor never speaks of hell and gives a blessing at the end, using the term age to come, rather than eternity. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is deeper and closer to truth than meets the eye. Nothing in his sermons has ever contradicted Ray's teaching, and a few months ago, he shared with my husband and me his changed belief in the afterlife - that after death, we sleep, waiting resurrection. No immediate going to heaven. Interesting.

Sunday school class - another issue. We'll see what happens as God leads.

[Samson]

Thank you Samson, Dave, and Arc for the advice and scripture. I hope I wasn't making persecution my aim, just wondering why I hadn't "suffered" any, but now I know...

I am in a sticky situation - I can see easily withdrawing from the very few things I participate in, but going on Sunday mornings is something that my husband enjoys. The pastor never speaks of hell and gives a blessing at the end, using the term age to come, rather than eternity. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is deeper and closer to truth than meets the eye. Nothing in his sermons has ever contradicted Ray's teaching, and a few months ago, he shared with my husband and me his changed belief in the afterlife - that after death, we sleep, waiting resurrection. No immediate going to heaven. Interesting.

Sunday school class - another issue. We'll see what happens as God leads.

Hi KarenMarie,

                   That was an interesting comment you made in the above quote. I'd be interested to know what Denomination your a member of, rarely do you hear of a Church Minister using the term Age to Come and admitting We require a Resurrection before going or being anywhere. In the past, I've talked with Clergymen who officially taught something a certain way, due to Church Policy, but privately believed otherwise. Since it's their occupation, in many cases and derives an income, they try to work within their particular Church Systems, even though they might not necessarily agree with all that's supposed to be taught. I had a Muslim who works the 12-8 shift on Weekends where I work suggest to me that I should start my own Church, after He listened to some of My Biblical explanations. My response to Him was I won't derived an income from God's Word and that I really don't have any special insight on anything Spiritual, except than what I learned from others(Ray primarily). Also, the tendency and at least the possibility of entering Heresy looms in the back of my Mind. I'm content on learning and relearning What Ray teaches about the Scriptures and other Universalists that Ray has alluded to in some of His writings. When leaving the JW'S after twenty years, I did allot searching and researching and for a short while alittle Religious Hobbyist, because as the Song goes by the group, The Who: " I won't get fooled again, oh no, that was my mindset when leaving. I wanted to be like the ancient Bereans, examining the Scriptures daily, to see if these things were true.

                                   Good Post by You, Samson.

[judith collier]

Karenmarie, I couldn't count the times people prayed for the devil to be harnessed and I knew darn well they were thinking of me because I asked so many questions. I guess he was harnessed because i shut my mouth but after awhile I had to leave. Rarely now do i let anyone pray for me unless I know what they believe. I used to stop people from praying over me because I would listen to them and didn't like what they praying. Most people pray their own mind.
judy

[karenmarie]

Samson, I am a member of no church at the moment, officially. I was a member for many years of an independent bible church. Then I was a pagan  for a short while, then started attending a very large Baptist church near Washington DC. After divorce and remarriage, I now attend different churches with my second husband, who has his own interesting spiritual saga, such that he is allergic to joining a church. I was uncomfortable with that for a few years, but now am grateful that we never did become official members of any denomination. I go with him to an Episcopal (mainline) and a Southern Baptist church, we trade weeks for each. I like the liturgy in the Episcopal (scripture based, very meditative) and the sermons by the Southern Baptist preacher, who delves deeply into original Greek for research. He is the one who uses the term age to come in his blessing. We went with him to a presentation by N.T. Wright, an Anglican, who had just written a book, Surprised by Hope, which contains his thesis about life after life after death (the resurrection) and how most of Christendom is wrong about the belief in going to heaven as spirits at death. That is when we had the discussion about death being sleep until the resurrection. That was about two years ago. In the car going home after listening to Wright, we had a lively discussion also about the trinity - turns out my husband grew up in a church that did not accept trinitarian beliefs (Church of God, but not the larger, well-known COG, his denomination was a smaller band that has a few groups in Georgia and the midwest). All of this stirred up the waters for preparing me for what I discovered on Bible-Truths...

I don't know why I joined the prayer group in the S. Baptist church other than I like to pray to God! But I am finding I don't like an agenda behind the scenes. To be fair, I think these people mean well, in their way - they are searching, searching, trying to bring about good things through asking God for help and guidance, I guess, and to discern "effective" ministries that will help people spiritually.

I'm finding in my own personal life, with problems that persist despite prayer, that God is in total control. I ask Him how to pray for certain situations, waiting on Him to show me. He answers when I read scripture, come here to the forum, reminds me of other times He helped me, and I see how my faith grows and how I am being refined every day, even through the trials I have that He has not removed, yet. I don't consider these trials persecution, by the way, just troubles and hardships, and then not really that bad compared to many others' situations. The persecution I speak of was the reaction I faced after last week's prayer meeting and my comments to the group. So much did not feel right to my spirit.

This is a rambling post! But I have grown a bit in the past week, living through this situation.

Thanks, everyone, for all the comments - very helpful, each one. I do tend to want to smooth over troubled waters in conversations, hating confrontation. I am going to be aware of this - probably by not speaking out much at all in the first place, but if the Spirit moves, I will say what He tells me to say. I will also be praying for guidance about attending church events. God is faithful to answer prayers for wisdom.

Karen