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karenmarie:
I've been reading about the refining fire in this life if God chooses us, and Ray teaching about how you know, if you have persecution. That got me wondering because I haven't felt "persecuted" for my faith at all. Of course, I haven't been speaking out about my beliefs, much either, only when I feel led to share them and that usually when someone is searching along the same lines.

So I prayed that if it was God's will, I would know persecution. Weird prayer, I admit! But I was wondering.

Anyway, it did happen that I was in a group, at a church, a prayer group where we've been praying for God to lead the church where He would have them go. My prayers in this group have been pretty generic, asking for God's wisdom, leading, etc. This past week's meeting, however, we had a big discussion beforehand. Turns out that all of the prayer sessions have been directed behind the scenes by a paid consultant. The "leaders" of each little group have leading discussion questions to sort of direct our prayers each week. This bothered me a lot. So I spoke my conflicts, and then asked what was the purpose of the church anyway? Answers from the prayer leader: to have programs that benefit the church body and to evangelize the gospel and bring people to salvation. The paid consultant and team leaders have determined which programs to consider doing and want the prayer groups to get divine messages about which ones specifically to start. They're looking for consensus answers as the message from God.

I had so many problems with this answer that I started sputtering -- part of the discussion was about the description of programs and it boils down to "nice" activities for different age groups: commuters, aging baby boomers, motorcyclists, single moms, youth. Anything that will involve potential problems, like hosting AA, was off the table. I asked what about where God's spirit leads - maybe into messy lives, people who are desperate to hear good news and get real help? I said I thought the purpose of the church was to praise and glorify God and obey Him. Everyone looked at me like I was from Mars. The leader said we had worship at the Sunday service, that was enough.

Well, I felt persecution for the rest of the hour. Discussion points were lobbed at me hard. Prayers were pointed, and not at God, I don't think.

I have been raised to be a good girl, polite, not causing dissension, a woman who should smooth things over and soothe. All my upbringing and life's habits were clanging internally in me, red alert - back down, be nice, don't be cranky, be friends with everyone again. But I couldn't do it.

I've been thinking about this for days. I have known that I don't belong in the Babylon church system, but have been trying to do things under the radar, so to speak - just being in prayer groups for people, help with missions (physical help, not the evangelizing, which I can't do anymore as I don't believe the message of free will to choose salvation), going to teas, etc. But when I heard about paid consultants and behind-the-scenes group control using prayer to God to get what they wanted for the direction of the church, I couldn't keep silent. I felt like an old-time prophet, being really grouchy and cantankerous.

Anyway - I guess God answered my prayer about persecution! I'm even getting some from my husband, who really likes the woman who spearheads the program - he wants me to "see their side". I'm shutting up for now, but am trying to discern exactly how God wants me to handle my leave-taking. I know He will show me the steps, so I'm not worried or upset. But it was an eye-opening experience, that's for sure!

Any thoughts? I'm not sure if I'm analyzing things correctly.

Karen

Dave in Tenn:
I've been on the other side when 'prayers' were made not for the 'ears of God' but for the benefit of the 'audience' and the 'prayer'.  A lot of times.  What a blessing God has shown you the 'dark side' so you can see the light more clearly.

2Ti 3:12  Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Remember that persecution is the RESULT of living godly, and not the aim of a believer.  

What is 'living godly'?

Tit 2:11-15  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Despite all the 'nice' things done by and in churches, their work is a form of godliness that denies the power.

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.  (Can you see it the preceding verses?)

[All the words in italics are or come from the same greek words.]

You've gotten a taste of the disfellowship of darkness and light.  One can't abide the other, and the other can't abide the one.  God's grace (divine influence) is working and will work in your life.  Hang in there.  Don't rush the Lord.  We've got to obey ALL the gospel if we're going to bear ALL the fruit.  

 

Samson:
Hi Karen Marie,

                     Whether or not you stay a part of this Church System or Not, those who endeavor to live Godly lives will be persecuted. You mentioned that Your Husband is giving you persecution, even though your still in the Church System. All I can recommend is this: REVELATION. 18:4,5- " GET OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE IF DON'T WANT TO SHARE IN HER SINS, AND IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO RECEIVE PART OF HER PLAGUES, FOR HER SINS HAVE MASSED TOGETHER CLEAR UP TO HEAVEN, AND GOD HAS CALLED ACTS OF INJUSTICE TO MIND." (Caps are mine for emphasis) (NWT)

                     Also, Dave quoted a pertinent scripture for your benefit: " They have a form of Godly devotion, but prove false to it's power." 2Tim.3:5 (NWT)

                     My point in my above response suggests, if you can get out of this Denominational arrangement, you should do so, pray to God for His help. You would certainly be praying by His rules(Matt.6:9-11). I understand you have Your own set of circumstances to deal with, but if your going to get persecuted anyway, staying there, You might as well get persecuted for leaving( Just suggestions and thoughts, since you asked). My wife is a chronic people pleaser and smoother outer of things and I sometimes find myself doing likewise. It potentially can lead us to a trip to the Mental Hospital. We discuss ways to curtail that behavior because it leads to unnecessary stress. Being helpful and caring towards others is wonderful, but when pleasing others borders on the ridiculous, than it's time for self-examination. Anyway, the truth is, YOU GET TO CHOOSE.

                                Kind Regards, Samson.

Deborah-Leigh:
Hi karenmarie



--- Quote ---my husband, who really likes the woman who spearheads the program
--- End quote ---

Col 3:19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.


Col 3:17  And WHATEVER YOU DO IN WORD OR DEED, DO all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Col 3:18  Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.


Php 4:6  Be anxious for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.


Enjoy, appreciate and bless your husband and family. Continue to trust in God and learn about Him.  :) Only God can show you the Kingdom of His Spirit.  :)

Arc

karenmarie:
Thank you Samson, Dave, and Arc for the advice and scripture. I hope I wasn't making persecution my aim, just wondering why I hadn't "suffered" any, but now I know...

I am in a sticky situation - I can see easily withdrawing from the very few things I participate in, but going on Sunday mornings is something that my husband enjoys. The pastor never speaks of hell and gives a blessing at the end, using the term age to come, rather than eternity. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is deeper and closer to truth than meets the eye. Nothing in his sermons has ever contradicted Ray's teaching, and a few months ago, he shared with my husband and me his changed belief in the afterlife - that after death, we sleep, waiting resurrection. No immediate going to heaven. Interesting.

Sunday school class - another issue. We'll see what happens as God leads.

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