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[dre91]

i need an honest answer. some people believe that jesus is michael the archangel because of what is written in 1thess. they say that the shout of the archangel is actually jesus' voice. there is only one commander of Gods army and that's jesus so that's why he's michael. that's what the guy told me. i thought since angels were created beings and jesus was begotten. it is written in scripture that jesus is the 1st born of all creation. the word was made flesh. does that mean he was the 1st created. i know that angels means messengers and an archangel is the chief of all the messengers. i know that God has never said to any of the messengers sit at my right hand till i make your enemies your footstool. that's what im confused about.

[Kat]

Hi dre91,

Here is a email that Ray spoke about this a bit.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3232.0 ------

 We need to be careful about using words like "mere" when referring to such as Michael the ARCHANGEL.  The "ANGEL OF THE LORD" mentioned so often in Scripture is more than mere!  Likewise Jesus is in every meaning of the word, a "Messenger--Angel" of His Father.  If ARCH- signifies the very highest, (and we have no other being called an ARCHangel in Scripture except Michael [which means LIKE GOD]), then just maybe Jesus IS THAT ARCHANGEL.

    God be with you, Roy,

    Ray

[Aatos]

I've heard that Michael does mean 'Who is like God.'  but I've also heard that it's supposed to be in the form of a rhetorical question.  "Who is like God?"

Call me one of those people who doesn't believe that Michael and Jesus are the same being.

[dre91]

is ray saying that jesus and michael are the same?

[Samson]

I have always believed so. But then what do I know. I am learning every day. It will be good to hear from those more well versed than us.
Blessings

Hi Janine,

             As a former JW, we were taught that Jesus and Michael the Archangel were synonymous. Of course, that in itself doesn't mean it's true or false. Ray in that Email Posted by Kat seems to indicate that He leans towards that understanding. Aside from1Thess. 4:16(voice of an Archangel, etc.), there are Scriptures in Daniel that might add weight to this interpretation. Daniel. 12:1. Michael is mentioned in connection with a great time of distress that had not yet occurred. (Jude 9)Michael had a dispute with the Devil regarding Moses body. We know that God hid Moses Body, the Israelites were incapable of using Moses Body in Idolatrous Worship. What happened to Moses body might be a shadow of what happened to Jesus Body. There was no way anyone was able to use Jesus Body in false Worship, just like Moses. Michael is mentioned in connection with the establishment of God's Kingdom(Rev. 7-12) and We all know Jesus is the King.

Strong's. 4317 Miykael-Heb(Michael) Who like God; Mikael, the name of an Archangel. Mikh-ah-ale'(Greek), An Archangel.

 I'm certain that we had a thread like this before, not too long ago, within two years past, some of the newer forum members might want to examine that Thread, too.

                            Kind Regards, Samson.

[mharrell08]

is ray saying that jesus and michael are the same?

Dre,

I asked Ray this same question, face to face, at the conference last year. He simply said: 'I don't know...could be or maybe not'. From studying the scriptures I know there is not a lot to go on with this subject and I'll always take with me from this conversation that Ray simply told the truth: He didn't know. I respect that much more than anyone attempting to force one answer over another.

That's the last I have heard from him on this subject, he may have a difference opinion if you wish to email him. I may ask again this Saturday, but only if any new people have finished their questions.

Samson,

The body of Moses in Jude is not Moses's physical body. This is speaking of the believers in the law of Moses, the Old Covenant. The same way believers today, under the New Covenant, are said to be the body of Christ.

Paul states 'our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea...' [1 Cor 10:1-2]. The children of Israel who God delivered out of bondage were 'baptized into Moses', under the Old Covenant. They are the body as Moses is the head, figuratively speaking.


Hope this helps,

Marques

P.S. As far as the Jesus=Michael question: I don't know either. I know of a few scriptures that seem to support both sides. Either way makes no difference to me...if God was adamant about it, He would have been very clear.

[Samson]

Marques,

             Thanks for the correction, my mistake.

                         Thanks, Samson.

[judith collier]

Aatos, here with you friend!

[Stacey]

LTV Jude 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil, he argued about the body of Moses; he dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy, but said, "Let the Lord rebuke you!"

Maybe I'm not reading this right even reading it from several different versions, they all are close to this one but, it seems to me that Michael is signifying that he is not the Lord but the Lord rebuke the Devil. By not doing the rebuking himself it looks that way to me. I probably just have it twisted up.

KJV Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Here the Lord did the rebuking.

KJV Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve

Again the Lord rebukes Satan not pointing to someone else but doing the rebuking Himself.

[Deborah-Leigh]

The Lord is the Power of Michael, His Archangel, just as The Father is the Spirit of Christ.

Arc

[Marky Mark]

I believe in Hebrews 1 The Father makes a great distinction between the who and the what between His Son and the angels.

It would at least seem to me that The Son is more than an angel[messenger;pastor] being that The Father calls Jesus, His Son[child;begotten]. I think that The Son goes above and beyond the description of what an angel is,seeing that Jesus is The Creator and The Savior of ALL.


CEV
Heb 1:1  Long ago in many ways and at many times God's prophets spoke his message to our ancestors.
Heb 1:2  But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son. Heb 1:3  God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side of the glorious God in heaven.
Heb 1:4  He had become much greater than the angels, and the name he was given is far greater than any of theirs.
Heb 1:5  God has never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son, because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son!" Heb 1:6  When God brings his first-born Son into the world, he commands all of his angels to worship him.
Heb 1:7  And when God speaks about the angels, he says, "I change my angels into wind and my servants into flaming fire."
Heb 1:8  But God says about his Son, "You are God, and you will rule as King forever! Your royal power brings about justice.
Heb 1:9  You loved justice and hated evil, and so I, your God, have chosen you. I appointed you and made you happier than any of your friends."
Heb 1:10  The Scriptures also say, "In the beginning, Lord, you were the one who laid the foundation of the earth and created the heavens.
Heb 1:11  They will all disappear and wear out like clothes, but you will last forever.
Heb 1:12  You will roll them up like a robe and change them like a garment. But you are always the same, and you will live forever."
Heb 1:13  God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!"
Heb 1:14  Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved.


Peace...Mark

[soberxp]

good work Mark

[Akira329]

zee325,

I tend to lean towards Jesus not being Michael

I believe Ray will be writing another paper soon on the subject of whether Jesus is God.
Which I think is relevant to this discussion
See link to email response:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12075.0.html

The chapter you brought up in Daniel, are we assuming this is a description of Jesus in the vision of Daniel:
Dan 10:5  Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
Dan 10:6  His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

if so.........

Dan 10:13  But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Brings a question to mind and a few scriptures.
Does or did Jesus ever need help doing something?

Mat 4:6  And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psa 91:11  For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12  They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Mat 4:11  Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Mat 26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Joh 1:51  And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

From what I understand from these verses there seems to be a order to things.
If Jesus is not an angel than angels definitely influence him (psalms 91:11)
They keep him in his ways.

Angels are ministers of righteousness

Also one thing to keep in mind too:
I believe Ray said we shouldn't personify spiritual beings. Don't quote me on that but I believe I read that in the trinity paper.
That Jesus is a person not his Father neither things in heaven.

Again I don't know either but brought some things to consider.
Antaiwan

[booker]

I don't think Jesus and Michael are the same by comparing ,Matthew 4:10  where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the Archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. And Hebrews 1 where it says "For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’?"


Since we are on the topic of angels.What do you think "Sons of God"in Genesis and Job refers to?

The three primary views that i know of on the identity of the sons of God are 1) they were fallen angels, 2) they were powerful human rulers, or 3) they were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain.

The first view is supported by the Book of Enoch. The first part of Book of Enoch describes the fall of the Watchers, the angels who fathered the Nephilim. The remainder of the book describes Enoch's visits to Heaven in the form of travels, visions and dreams, and his revelations.

[Aatos]

Since we are on the topic of angels.What do you think "Sons of God"in Genesis and Job refers to?

The three primary views that i know of on the identity of the sons of God are 1) they were fallen angels, 2) they were powerful human rulers, or 3) they were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain.

There's a fourth view, though it's not as popular.  They were the pagan gods.

Yeeah, not sure how I feel about that; granted it makes more sense to me than the sons of God being powerful human rulers, or godly descendants of Seth.

[Kat]

Hi Booker,

Here are a couple of places where Ray addresses 'sons of God.' The first is from the Nashville Conference 2007 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?'  and the last one is an email.
    
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html --------

It says, “In a beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”  But then we read something over in Job 38.

Job 38:1  Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
v. 2  Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
v. 3  Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare you unto Me.
v. 4  Where was you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, it to Me if you have understanding.
v. 5  Who determined the measures thereof, if you know? Or who stretched the line upon it?
v. 6  Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
v. 7  When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Whoops, wait a minute, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…”  And this is the beginning of things?  Apparently not.  What was the first created, the heaven or the earth?  The heavens... and the earth.  So when we come to the earth, the heavens are already created.  And when He creates the earth, low and behold we have the morning stars shouting for joy.  Where did they come from, if this is in the beginning? 

Alright, first of all when it says morning stars, this is the breaking of day, the dawn.  So what is the breaking of day or dawn?  That’s when the earth moves and the sun appears to go up and come down.  The whole thing is working!  Everything is already working, the earth is turning and now these sons of the dawn, of this turning earth, are shouting for joy and singing. 

But we learn in Job 1, that these sons of God presented themselves to Him and Satan came among them.  Remember what Satan was saying about Job, and God said, well you can do anything you want, but spare his life and so on.  These are the angelic beings, we’re not told where they are created in Genesis.  But now we know.  They had to be created between the heavens and the earth.  So by the time the earth was created, they are already here.  Now we got the proof. 

So He created the heavens and He creates the earth, and then God had to probably say, ‘alright turn it on.’  ‘Turn it, spin it.’  Okay now we got day and night.  ‘Now push it, push it around the sun.’  Ok now we have the seasons.  The days and nights, and seasons, it’s all starting to work.  And the sons of God are shouting for joy and singing.


http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm -------------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Thank you for your email and questions.

Gen. 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with "fallen angels." The "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" is not speaking of mortals and spirit beings. This is just another one of Christendom's fables.

Jesus plainly told us that,

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God., For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage [why? why aren't they given in marriage? Answer....] ...but are AS THE ANGELS of God in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).

The angels CANNOT MARRY (they have no 'marriage apparatus' if you know what I mean). Yet we are told in Gen. 6:2, that "they took them WIVES of all which they chose." To have a "wife" one must be "MARRIED."   The sons of God and the daughters of men are BOTH HUMAN.

I believe that verse 4 of Gen. 6 is a terrible translation in the King James.  Since most translators have bought into the 'angels fornicating with women' theory, most of them have a very strange translation of this verse. There are whole words in this Hebrew verse that are not even translated at all in most versions.

Notice this translation from the Concordant Version:

"Now the DISTINGUISHED come to be in the earth in those days, and moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of God to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the MASTERS, who are from the eon, MORTALS with the name."

Sorry I don't have time to explain the meaning of all these verses, but at least I want you to know that this is not a case of angels fornicating with women.

God be with you,

Ray