Deliverance

[rocky]

I hope this doesn't side track this thread too much, but here is my two cents on what the sin unto death is. 

Sin unto death for me, in simple terms; is to deny Christ (after being given the spirit by faith) by going back to the law. 

Gal 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away  (for me, to revert back to law) , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.   (for me, this is the sin unto death)

Heb 10:23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

by faith, we won't sin willfully,

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


1Jo 5:17  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

All sin is forgiven, if living by faith, if the light is shining in us.  If we have the light, we see our sin, and confess it. 

If we revert back to living by the law, we see no need for Christ, we are blinded by the law, and no longer see our sin.   

1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We will confess our sins, if by faith, Christ lives in us, by His Light, in us.  We are in need of a doctor, we see our sickness. 

1Jo 5:4  because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world--our faith;

1Jo 5:5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Believing in Him, to me means we believe he is the only way to forgive sins.  We rely on him to do this. 

1Jo 5:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 4:9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (this to me is the sin unto death)

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:2  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[Lightseeker]

CHRIS,

There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates we makes "choices" free and independent from our creator.

As I've studied and read what Ray teaches concerning this I've ended up in a unusual position.  I see the scriptures which point to no free will as pertaining to 1. matters of state and 2. being birthed into the family of God.  Number 2. is consistant with nature and our own earthly families.  Which of us 'decided' to be born of our mother and father?  But after birth/rebirth...physical and spiritual I see scripture giving me more choice than seems to be 'generally' believed here at BT.   

It is God that shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy, and hardens whom he will harden.

Amen to that.  The sun that melts butter also bakes the clay. Whether I'm butter or clay matters not.  What does matter is the attitude of my heart...am I melting willingly or am I whining about not being put back in the fridge.     It's a big concept to wrap ones mind around.  

HARRY,

I am not sure what I am "doing to 1John"  that bothers you.  

 

Maybe I wasn't clear.  It wasn't really your view of 1 John, it was your discounting the writings of the disciples (John of 1Joh) and giving more weight to the OT authors and Jesus.  I guess for me the OT authors are equal with the NT authors.  As far as your emphasis on the words of Jesus...He never wrote anything in scripture...you are still totally dependent upon 'inspiration' from God concerning scripture written by the apostles...aren't you?

Going with the thought that all scripture is inspired by God, how do you compare your reaction with regard to sin,  to the law and it's administration in Leviticus with 1John.  If you say that there is no difference in how you view them in terms of the nature and gravity of what is a sin then I think I understand.

OK here I go on a limb.  The Name/nature of God of the OT changed.  It was different for Abraham Issac and Jacob than it was for Moses and those 'under the law'.  That change took place with the law.

EXO 6:2  And God said to Moses, "I am the LORD. 3  I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.

There was a change in religion and priests with the name of Jehovah and His law.  No longer could people get away with things like Abraham did with his wife which would have deserved death 'under the law'.  No longer was Melchizadec the priest...but Aaron and his sons.  When Jesus came there once again was a change of religion, priesthood and name of God which we call upon (all appologies to the JW's). Anyway Leviticus/law and Jehovah dealt with sin with judgment...but mercy and truth came with Jesus ("neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more")  I hope this brief POV which is so much deeper than I'm able to relay, helps to answer your question.

WARD

Have I committed this sin?  Regrettably, yes... I haven't physically done it, but the sin was still there.

I would have to disagree for the reason stated earlier.  If the thought is a sin then Jesus was a sinner because He: was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

JAM 1:15  Then  when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

If you never committed the act you never sinned.  You merely were tempted at the level of lusting to commit the act.  And if you didn't commit the sin then you aren't judged with death in whatever area that sin affects.  

GEN 4:7  If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Sounds to me like you never let the sin master you because you didn't do it. You only 'thought' about doing it and that's not a sin...it's a transgression.

The sin(s) mentioned aren't specific or special. (If they are, I sure can't find them listed in the scriptures.  Clue me in if you have.)

No I don't guess I have found them either, and that's why I'm asking questions here too.

By the way... Thanks for asking me.  You made me think about this more than I ever have before and that's a good thing.  
I hope that what's been given to me to share is helpfull.  And please forgive any newbie mistakes.  These are my very first posts ever.

Thank you Ward, I love being told I've made people think.  I've been told that many times by brethren in my church.  A place where I must ask questions which demand an answer (from those with eyes/ears) which shows traditional christianity is wrong...IMO.  Many come to me later seeking deeper understanding than they presently walk in.

BTW welcome to BT and I haven't noticed a newbie mistake myself.  

[Chris R]

CHRIS,

There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates we makes "choices" free and independent from our creator.

As I've studied and read what Ray teaches concerning this I've ended up in a unusual position.  I see the scriptures which point to no free will as pertaining to 1. matters of state and 2. being birthed into the family of God.  Number 2. is consistant with nature and our own earthly families.  Which of us 'decided' to be born of our mother and father?  But after birth/rebirth...physical and spiritual I see scripture giving me more choice than seems to be 'generally' believed here at BT.   

It is God that shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy, and hardens whom he will harden.

Amen to that.  The sun that melts butter also bakes the clay. Whether I'm butter or clay matters not.  What does matter is the attitude of my heart...am I melting willingly or am I whining about not being put back in the fridge.     It's a big concept to wrap ones mind around.  

Hello Light,

I'm really not sure which scripture your speaking of that gives us "more" choices?  We choose to do things every day, thousands of choices are made by each of us, None of these choices are "free" from cicumstances that cause us to do one thing or another.

And since God is the cause of all things, He is in complete control of everything. right down to the hairs on our head, it is mans inability to see the true soverign nature of God That allows men to beleive they have "limited" free will or choice. I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. [Jer 10:23]

To beleive that we can change Gods plan, is to set ourselves up as gods, this decidedly cannot be true, God is either in control, or the world is running in total chaos.

Peace

Chris R.

[Craig]

I would have to disagree for the reason stated earlier.  If the thought is a sin then Jesus was a sinner because He: was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

JAM 1:15  Then  when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Light,
Chris gave very good answers.  I can tell you are a very thoughtful and truth seeking person.  It is good you ask questions and continue to question until your mind is satisfied.  I am like this myself.  If you are at this place in your questions, then read, study and pray about what Ray says about free will, several times and then a few more.  That was the concept that was the most difficult for me to get my head around, I think because that is when the beast truely begins to die, and he doesn't go easily.   

You will be alone on this journey, as it take much time, effort, and prayer to understand the deeper things of God and it will be a journey without end in this lifetime.  The forum should be a place to fellowship with like minded believers but don't expect to find allot of the answers you are seeking because even though many here are good people very few are teachers. This is between you and God.


Concerning Jesus and sin.  Yes he was tempted, but the temptation didn't become lust.  And lust is the root of sin.

Blessings!

Craig

[hillsbororiver]

Usually lost in the "debate" about homosexuality is the lowered life expectancy of gay men, research has suggested it is about 46 to 50 years or as much as 20 years less than their straight or celebate brothers.

I am not one to preach guilt or damnation to anyone, I count myself very fortunate to being forgiven of the terrible things I have done in my life, I don't believe in offering my opinion or thoughts to a gay person unless they specifically ask me a question in regard to their lifestyle, otherwise I treat them as I would anyone else. However if a militant gay is promoting this as being "equal but just a different" lifestyle I do feel obligated to point out the error of that statement.

All of us are predisposed to some sort of sin(s) anger, thievery, lying, lustfullness of any type, violence, etc. some of us have a weakness for intoxicants/drugs that can hurt loved ones or bring about an early demise. Just because we may like to say we were born with this deficiency are we to ignore the sinfullness of it, or not pray to be delivered from it?

A couple links on gay life expectancy, do your own research if you care to, this information is readily available if you look but it is too politically incorrect for the mass media to deal with;

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jun/05060606.html

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/bates060805.htm

Again, I do not believe it is ok to bash or condemn any brother or sister but with that being said I won't be a party to spreading or condoning a lie that can hurt or destroy people.

Joe

[Harryfeat]

Hello Joe,

I am not saying there is no relevance to an expected shorter life span for a single gay person. The truth is that single males no matter what sexual preference have a shorter life expectancy from studies supporting life tables used for insurance purposes.  I would be more inclined to be less skeptical of the study you cited if it were performed by life insurance actuaries rather than a pro family man that might or might not  have an agenda. The study kind of reminds me of those ads with clinical studies confirming that pills for breast and penis enlargment pills really work.

There is no doubt that lifestyle can seriously affect one's life expectancy. According to several sources on the internet, If you are a heavy drinker or smoker you can expect to reduce your life expectancy by fifteen or more years.  If you are obese and don't exercise you also significantly reduce your life expectancy. Just look up the words "life expectancy" on your browser and see for yourself.

If you go to the following website you can also play the longevity game which shows the effects of some of these things:   http://www.nmfn.com/tn/learnctr--lifeevents--longevity

I don't know what relevance any of this has to do with the topic of the thread. Maybe we can all pray that we can be delivered from a lifestyle that shortens our lives and that will brings us closer to spiritual life in Christ.


feat

[Lightseeker]

CHRIS

I know this is off topic so I'll try not to elaborate.

I'm really not sure which scripture your speaking of that gives us "more" choices?  We choose to do things every day, thousands of choices are made by each of us, None of these choices are "free" from cicumstances that cause us to do one thing or another.

I'm talking about all the scriptures which give us the choice to 'sin' or 'not sin'.  I understand not being a 'Free moral agent' and that we truly are, at least partially, a product of our enviornment which we don't totally control.  I'm just saying God is not the only influence HE has allowed to operate in our lives.  What choice I make in every situation is dependent upon how much I have conformed to the mind of Christ IMO.  God allows Satan (God's created tool IMO) to test us, but as in Job's case He never said what the Satan could do to Job.  He only said how far he couldn't go.  Which is consistant with scripture 

1CO 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Is God tempting us here?...no!  Is He giving us a choice we can't escape from because of no 'will' or no 'way'?  I don't see that either. 

So did God 'rob, kill, and destroy' those in the story of Job...or did Satan?  I think Satan did.  Did God force Satan to do what he did?  I don't think so.  So God isn't micromanaging every minute detail of creation making robots of all.  But He is soverignly channeling all things in the direction He desires for us to go.  That's just how I see it at this point in my walk.  Not wanting to be controversial here or cause a problem.  I'm not a homo phobe or a free will phobe.  Whether I think I have, or don't have free will doesn't change anything for me/us in the grand scheme of things...does it?

I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. [Jer 10:23]
I totally agree it's not from within.  It's from without...in the realm of influence where there is "the God of this world" and 'the God of this universe'.  I can't change my course which is directed by choices made in the past...even though I'll end up at the same goal intended of God from the beginning.  But I can control my response to those 'trials, testings' which will influence how God has to deal with me in the future...I believe.  This controls total "chaos" but eliminates "total control" while never changing God's ultimate goal.  This view supports Theism and refutes Deism.

JOH 8:11  She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. 
No mention of 'but you don't have any choice in the matter as to whether you sin or not because God's totally controlling you'.  Oh well enough of that here. 

JOE

Just because we may like to say we were born with this deficiency are we to ignore the sinfullness of it, or not pray to be delivered from it?

Amen and a point that is at issue here I think, for Harry's friends.

FEAT

I don't know what relevance any of this has to do with the topic of the thread. Maybe we can all pray that we can be delivered from a lifestyle that shortens our lives and that will brings us closer to spiritual life in Christ.

Pray...yes.  But also be open to witnessing life into a death situation in this age (whatever it is).  One of the complaints against reconcilliation is that we won't witness.  I retort, "I witness when I feel led of the Spirit to do so"....OK, OK sometimes I disobey and don't.    But at least my witness is from the pure motive of a love relationship to God and not a mechanical churchianity motivation IMO.  God is going to move through preaching the word...according to scripture.  And if we're inclined not to preach then He must call upon someone else too.  At least that's how I think of things today...might change tomorrow.

Gotta go guys.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi feat,

I only cited 2 examples but did invite anyone who has an interest to do their own research as there is much material available, I remember reading years ago about homosexuals and IV drug users having about the same rates of infections, immune system deficiencies and life expectancy.

There are extreme positions by "pro family" to be sure, as there are with the "pro gay." I for one do not have the same faith in the Insurance Companies as being beacons of truth, they must consider the negative effects any stance that could be perceived as bigoted would have on their liability and/or their image, it is easier to simply raise the premiums on all people. I have seen how these Insurance Companies raise everyones Auto rates to cover uninsured, unlicensed drivers, careless drivers and raise the insurance rates for all Floridians to cover the losses they paid in the coastal regions. Their motivation is strictly bottom line.     

Since it has become politically correct to promote this lifestyle anyone who points to scripture or medical evidence to question the wisdom of this sociological change is in danger of being branded "homophobic" or a "bigot" with the more "enlightened" among us denying what is obvious, exchanging body fluids with multiple partners (gay or straight) & strangers is risky business. I do not want to get too graphic but any Doctor without political bias or an agenda will tell you the anus was not intended to be a vagina nor can it be converted into one, the health risks are plentiful and the immune system will be compromised. That is the physical aspect, the spiritual aspect is that we will not grow in His Spirit if we hold on to the lusts of the flesh, in any form or manner.

If one wants to believe that this is a healthy lifestyle (physically or spiritually) with no difference to a man/woman marriage nothing anyone says or writes is going to change their minds, but if the question is raised honestly we should throw out the world's ever changing temporal answers and respond with what has been written for our admonition and edification.

We should seek the spiritual strength to resist sin in all forms and pray for those who have yet to have their eyes opened, to hate the sin but love the sinner. Our desire should not be to justify sin but to prayerfully seek deliverence from it.

Joe

[Harryfeat]

But also be open to witnessing life into a death situation in this age (whatever it is).  One of the complaints against reconcilliation is that we won't witness.  I retort, "I witness when I feel led of the Spirit to do so"....OK, OK sometimes I disobey and don't.    But at least my witness is from the pure motive of a love relationship to God and not a mechanical churchianity motivation IMO.  God is going to move through preaching the word...according to scripture.  And if we're inclined not to preach then He must call upon someone else too.  At least that's how I think of things today...might change tomorrow.

Gotta go guys.

By witnessing what exactly do you mean, do you mean preaching?  Also I don 't understand what you mean by witnessing life into a death situation in this age.    I am totally lost in understanding it.


Perhaps this should start another thread but it seems to fit somewhat here.  The same sex couple that I know do not truly believe they are living in a sinful relationship.  Are we supposed to preach to them that they are sinners and should get [for lack of a better term]"divorced"?  They are as much a couple as my wife and I are. I don't see that as a viable alternative.  At what point does witnessing,  whatever that means to you,  become judgemental and divisive  to those who don't believe as you do?


feat

[Harryfeat]

Hi feat,

I only cited 2 examples but did invite anyone who has an interest to do their own research as there is much material available, I remember reading years ago about homosexuals and IV drug users having about the same rates of infections, immune system deficiencies and life expectancy.

There are extreme positions by "pro family" to be sure, as there are with the "pro gay." I for one do not have the same faith in the Insurance Companies as being beacons of truth, they must consider the negative effects any stance that could be perceived as bigoted would have on their liability and/or their image, it is easier to simply raise the premiums on all people. I have seen how these Insurance Companies raise everyones Auto rates to cover uninsured, unlicensed drivers, careless drivers and raise the insurance rates for all Floridians to cover the losses they paid in the coastal regions. Their motivation is strictly bottom line.     


We should seek the spiritual strength to resist sin in all forms and pray for those who have yet to have their eyes opened, to hate the sin but love the sinner. Our desire should not be to justify sin but to prayerfully seek deliverence from it.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Your point is well taken about insurance companies having the agenda of making money.  We at least have some semblence of purpose on their part.  Not always strictly monetary motivation but almost certainly part of their decision process.  Usually their studies are better documented and scientifically prepared for fear of legal suit.   As you say, however,  taking anything at face value can be risky.

[I wasn't sure you realized that  both the cites you made quoting a shorter life span seem to be about the same pro family man and his study, one just seems less supportive and more cautionary than the other.]

Aside from same sex,  I don't even know what the gay lifestyle is other than stereotypes.  The same sex couple I know are very conservative.  As far as I know from observation and what they have told me, they don't do drugs, don't cheat on each other, believe in God, have read the bible, believe we have limited free will, one is waffling on the concept of universalism and the other believes in annilhilation of those who are not listed in the book[ per Revelations}.  They both left religions/churches that told them they would be going to hell because God made them queer. The both believe and try to hold to Christ's commandments of love. They are both kind and helpful and seem to practice the concept of "doing unto others" . They believe that GWBush is unfit to lead, fundamentalists are far too influencial in matters of government, church and state should be separate to the extent that churches should  pay taxes like every other business.

They seem to be fairly conventional conservatives [with a few exceptions of course].  I have suggested they visit BT and let me know what they think. It is too early for feedback.


Joe said "....if the question is raised honestly we should throw out the world's ever changing temporal answers and respond with what has been written for our admonition and edification......" 

I assume by what has been written you mean scripture. If so, we are talking about translation error and interpretation by the carnal mind.  If we believe what Christ said about the meaning of what he said being hidden from the masses then I see why we have so many religions and differences of opinion.    I have been beaten down with bible verses about going to hell and  that I am a sinner so many times  that even when people ask my opinion, I qualify everything with its what I believe not necessarily what God will finally reveal to us all.
IF I stick to the doctrine of Christ and his commandments of love then  i don't think I will go wrong.  I actually feel like I am being judgemental when I tell someone that I think what they are doing is sinful, so I try not to.

Thanks for the additional input

feat

[hillsbororiver]

Hello feat,

I certainly do not condone getting into someone's face to call them an evil sinner doomed to destruction, if someone asks me what I believe in regard to any habit or lifestyle I will answer them as best I can, with scriptural backing as my foundation.

Through the years I have worked with and have had neighbors who were homosexual and it usually never entered our conversation, they would not volunteer what they did in the privacy of their home and neither would I, many of these people were dependable, friendly and unassuming folks who I enjoyed having the opportunity of working with or living near. Even when I was totally living in the world I was basically (for the most part) a "live and let live" kind of person.

As my eyes have begun to open to His purpose and plan I see all of us as being in the same flawed condition, not with the same weaknesses but weak just the same. I must forgive if I want forgiveness and I must love all my bothers and sisters because a heavy price has been paid for all of us. My feeling is that we should not justify sinfulness in any form but seek deliverence from it, none of us give up our carnal nature easily, in fact it is impossible without His Spirit. I do not look to confront anyone on what they think or do but if a honest question arises I will give the most honest answer I can possibly give.

Peace to you Brother,

Joe

[Harryfeat]

Are you sure we don't live near the same couple?

It's basically the same on my street. Live and let live.


feat

[Lightseeker]

HARRY

By witnessing what exactly do you mean, do you mean preaching? 

[RSV] ROM 10:17  So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ. 

KJV says "word" where RSV says "preaching".  I prefer RSV because the Greek word for "word" in this verse is Rhema and not Logos, and a Rhema is a spoken word.  The big idea is you have to be 'talked' to concerning the gospel/good news.  Whose job is it to do that talking?

Also I don 't understand what you mean by witnessing life into a death situation in this age.

 

I think that the 'unchanging nature of Jesus' and the 'unshakable kingdom of God' are both necessary to bring one from death unto life in this age.  This isn't a one time deal IMO.  We must overcome in many areas of our life.  To be an "overcomer" and "inherit the promises" of this age requires both 'knowing the truth' and 'walking in the truth'.  Hope that helps. 

The same sex couple that I know do not truly believe they are living in a sinful relationship.

I guess at this point I'm not concerned with them Harry...do you believe it's sinful.

Are we supposed to preach to them that they are sinners and should get [for lack of a better term]"divorced"?

 

I don't believe that your idea of preaching is biblical...it's traditional/fundamental...which is fundamentally wrong IMO.  What 'good news' is there is telling someone they're a sinner?  None IMO.  Tell them to "get divorced"  What for, so they can live in hell here and now, in that area of their life,  for the rest of their lives?  I don't care about the 'here after' for them, I care about the kingdom of God for them here and now...that was the gospel of Jesus.  Anything we don't accomplish in obedience for God this side of "eternity" He will take care of in the next age/s to come IMO.

1CO 1:21  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
It's not our call to 'make' them believe, but it is our 'part' to preach/teach/talk...the truth IMO.

They are as much a couple as my wife and I are. I don't see that as a viable alternative.  At what point does witnessing,  whatever that means to you,  become judgemental and divisive  to those who don't believe as you do?

When you become part of their problem instead of part of their answer.  When it's you who is offending them and not 'the truth' that's offensive to them.  No one can give you a black and white line here.  You must be led of the Sspirit to minister seeds of truth into their soul.  The growth must come from God.

Feat, it sounds to me like you truly have a 'right heart' for them, and that's good and admirable.  But it sounds to me like you believe that they're really at peace in this relationship...I don't, not deep down.  And it also sounds like you really don't believe it is a 'sinful relationship'...while I do.

Thoughts?