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[John9362]

Hi all,
 
I posted the following to a friend [Don] from Mike's Q & A section "Is God a trinity" and he came up with his response which suprised me. Can you please help me in understanding the truth here.
 
God bless you guys and thank you
John

So there are two scriptural 'gods', one is created and the other is the Creator. Which of these two 'gods' is Christ? Let us not speculate. Why not just let Christ tell us
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Don's response:
If you would bother to check the meanings of greek words, before leaping to erroneous conclusions, we'd all be further ahead. 

In Rev 3:14, the greek word 'ARCHE' which was rendered in error, as 'beginning' gives an ambiguous twist to things, the ACTUAL meaning really conveys the intent of " to BE the SOURCE, the ORIGIN of something.  So this word really names Jesus as CREATOR not created!!!!!!!

Further more:
Mike goes on to say: Christ Himself reaffirms Paul's statement that the Father is God and that He, Christ is the "beginning of God's creation." Paul, of course, tells us that after God created the "one Lord Jesus Christ," that it was "by Him," that we were all created:

Don's response: " WRONG,... SEE ABOVE!

Don goes further to say:

2Thessalonians 1:12 says "... according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ. " Looking at the grammar, according to the rules of Greek, when you have a subject expressed in the singular genitive case (posessive) and there is a direct object without the article (the) of the same case and number (singular, here) which is connected by "and" (kai),... THEN THE SUBJECT AND DIRECT OBJECT REFER TO THE SAME  PERSON!!!!!!  [Granville Sharpe's Rule,... look it up in any Greek grammar]  SO, Paul does, in fact refer to Jesus as GOD!!!

BTW:
I am SORRY if my question above is NOT clear, I'm having trouble using this new format...since I just started to learn the previous one.

[hillsbororiver]

The following is cut from the paper "Is God a closed Trinity or an Open Family?"

 Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."


"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ,

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!

Jesus Christ said,

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

And remember that these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?!

The article can be read in its entirety @;


http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

Hope this helps

Joe

[knuckle]

Hi all-----------

    Just to make sure we are on the same page-------Jehovah refered to as God in the OT is infact Christ  and God the Father is not even introduced to us until Christ came in human form-----is this statement correct?



much love-----------knuckle

[John9362]

 Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD."

You say: "one LORD."
Is this a contradiction ? Jesus may be a Lord, or a god, but he was never, nor will he ever be LORD!! There is only One LORD, and he surely is NOT, NOR ever has been a human.

[John9362]

Sorry, my last post is to Hillsbororiver.

Thanks
John

[hillsbororiver]

Hello John,

I am not sure I understand your post to me. Jesus is most certainly Lord, He is Lord of lords but He is not God the Father.

Could you rephrase your statement?

Also, did you read the article? What do you think?

Thanks,

Joe

[John9362]

Hi Joe,
The article is spot on !!
It's my friend Don, who didn't appreciate lord being written as "LORD" in the article from Ray's site. see following:

 Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD."

Don said, NOT So!!! Jesus may be a Lord, or a god, but he was never, nor will he ever be LORD!! There is only One LORD, and he surely is NOT, NOR ever has been a huMAN!

John

[hillsbororiver]

Hi John,

Your friend Don doesn't have a problem with Ray, he apparently has a problem with scripture;

Luk 2:11  For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.

Act 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Act 10:36  The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Act 16:31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Then we have this as well;

Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
 
Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation,,  and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
 
Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
 
Phi 2:9  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name:
 
Phi 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Phi 2:11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

But it is true that our Lord and Saviour has a God, He spoke these words;

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus is our Lord (with a capital "L") there hundreds of scriptures that testfy to this,

John, what scriptures does Don use to verify his statements regarding Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour?

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

John (and all), sorry for all the bold lettering, I messed it up and it is too much editing to go back and disect the bold from the plain.

Joe

[TimothyVI]

I think that what John is referring to is the spelling of  LORD in all capitals letters. This refers to God the father, YAHWEH,  as opposed to capital "L" and lower case "ord," which refers to a rank or position, master over people, as used in the scriptures that you quoted above.

Tim

[John9362]

I think that what John is referring to is the spelling of  LORD in all capitals letters.

*Spot on Tim.....yes that is the problem Don' has !!

Sorry guys for not being clearer.

God bless you !!

John

[hillsbororiver]

I think that what John is referring to is the spelling of  LORD in all capitals letters. This refers to God the father, YAHWEH,  as opposed to capital "L" and lower case "ord," which refers to a rank or position, master over people, as used in the scriptures that you quoted above.

Tim

YAHWAH, the God of the OT is Jesus,

Joe