Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[EKnight]

I recently had this same thought:

> Hi Ray
> Tremendous website it has helped me enormously in so many ways.
> I have one quick question though, regarding death.I am now fully persuaded
> that when one dies you are dead until resurrected,and that there is no
> consciousnes or awarenes after death until the resurrection.However there
> appears to be a verse in acts that contradicts this view, mainly acts 2:24.
> All the versions I use including concordant, either use the term 'pains of
> death' or 'pangs of death'.In other words it could be argued that only
> conscious beings can feel pain , and that even in death Jesus was
> consciously aware of what was going on.can you explain this apparent
> contradiction.
> Many thanks
>
> Dave


Dear Dave:

It is only because of the damnable heresies we have been spoon-fed since babies that we would ever consider for one moment that people who are DEAD can at the same time FEAL PAIN!  That's insane.

This verse says nothing (absolutely nothing) about "feeling pain while being dead." Where does it say such a thing? There is no contradiction of anything in this verse. The word is "death," not "DEAD." Death is also a process leading up to and culminating in becomeing DEAD.  The very first definition of "death" in my American Heritage College Dictionary is: "The act of DYING...."

What kind of a death (act of dying) did Jesus go through?  "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the DEATH OF THE CROSS"  (Phil. 2:Cool.  Was being crucified a "painful" DEATH? Yes, of course it was.  Did that PAINFUL crucifixion terminate Christ's life?  Yes, of course it did.  Could it "hold" Him there?  NO, "Whom God has raised up, having loosed [from the hold that it had on Him until resurrection] the pains of death ['even the death of the cross'] because it was not possible that He should be holden of it [the death of the cross]." (Acts 2:24).

This is not rocket science. Notice in verse 27 we are told that had God not protected His flesh, it would have ROTTED.  ROTTING DEAD FLESH FEELS NO PAIN.  Certainly Christ's flesh did not rot, but it WAS DEAD FLESH, none the same.

God be with you,

Ray

Oops!  I also wanted to add, but neglected in my answer to you, that the "pangs" were "pangs OF death," not "pangs IN death."

Acts 2:

 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

 24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

The way this reads; After Christ is put to death and his body put in the tomb, three days later, God raises him from the dead thereby "putting an end to the agony of death" (not putting an end to death but the AGONY of death).  So even with Ray's explanation above, I still don't see how it can be said there is no consciousness while dead since it is the raising Him up which puts an end to the agony of death.  Rays has said over and over that the wages of sin is death (mortality).  I never thought Ray was referring to the "act of dying" as the wages of sin.  After all, some people die without pain at all.

Help.

Eileen

[servias]

I am no expert here and very new but I felt stumped too until I started pulling different bibles.

Rotherhams...
Act 2:24  Whom, God, raised up, loosing the pangs of death, inasmuch as it was, not possible, for him to continue held fast by it.

Here is how I looked at it  (Whom, God, raised up) JESUS (loosing the pangs of death) has no more pain from dying (inasmuch as it was, not possible, for him to continue held fast by it.) because it is impossible for him to retain it.

As far as "wages of sin is death"....
To me it means that means sin will be judged, or justice as we will see after we die.

Hope it helps

Dan

[Kat]

Hi Eileen,

The way this reads; After Christ is put to death and his body put in the tomb, three days later, God raises him from the dead thereby "putting an end to the agony of death" (not putting an end to death but the AGONY of death).  So even with Ray's explanation above, I still don't see how it can be said there is no consciousness while dead since it is the raising Him up which puts an end to the agony of death.

Act 2:24  whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains OF the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it, (YLT)

I think that the key word here is "of." It does not say "loosed the pains 'in' death," meaning the state of being dead. But "loosed the pains OF the death," which would have been the act/agony of dying, experiencing His own death. I believe that the agony was in the knowledge of knowing He would be death, all life removed from Him.

Rays has said over and over that the wages of sin is death (mortality).  I never thought Ray was referring to the "act of dying" as the wages of sin.  After all, some people die without pain at all.

Yes, "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23) and "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). It is not the act of dying that we inherit from Adam, but death, the opposite of life, the cessation of life in this world. With life we have consciousness, in death there is no consciousness, "the dead know nothing" (Ecc 9:5). We all perish at death and our hope is in the resurrection of the dead, which Christ is the firstfruits.

1Co 15:16  For if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not risen.
1Co 15:18  Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

We need to set our sights on what real life is, the kingdom. For this life is a vapor (James 4:14), in death we will not even be aware of time or anything... the resurrection will be here before you know it.

James 5:8  You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[EKnight]

Here is how I looked at it  (Whom, God, raised up) JESUS (loosing the pangs of death) has no more pain from dying (inasmuch as it was, not possible, for him to continue held fast by it.) because it is impossible for him to retain it.


Dan

Dan, I highlighted in bold what I am about to comment on.

The pain of dying had already ended when He died (ceased to be alive) and if there is no feeling or thoughts in death, then what is the agony of it?

Kat,

I think that the key word here is "of." It does not say "loosed the pains 'in' death," meaning the state of being dead. But "loosed the pains OF the death," which would have been the act/agony of dying, experiencing His own death. I believe that the agony was in the knowledge of knowing He would be death, all life removed from Him.

Knowing what I thought I knew about death, even I would not agonize over knowing that I am about to die.  Perhaps knowing the way Christ was going to die was certainly agonizing for Him as we well know from the Garden.  Regardless, the sequence in which this scripture is written clearly says He was loosed from the pangs or pains or agony of death AFTER he was dead.  As I said to Dan, the agony of dying or the agony of anticipating His painful death had already ended three days before He was raised up.

I understand there are tons of other scriptures contradicting this one scripture, I just don't understand why it is there in the sequence it was inspired, and written.

Eileen

[Kat]

Okay I needed to do a rethink on this. Yes I see that it does mean the state of being dead.

Acts 2:24  whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

This is what I have found about this phrase "pains of death." The original Hebrew means “snares” or “traps” or “cords” of death where sheol and death are personified as hunters laying snares for prey. How Peter or Luke came to use the old Greek word ōdinas (birth pangs) we do not know. Early Christian writers interpreted the Resurrection of Christ as a birth out of death. “Loosing” (lusas) suits better the notion of “snares” held a prisoner by death, but birth pangs do bring deliverance to the mother also. (Robertson's)

I thought that helped explain this verse. Here is the same phrase in Psalms 18.

Psa 18:4  The pangs of death surrounded me,
       And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
Psa 18:5  The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
       The snares of death confronted me. (NKJV)

Psa 18:4 The meshes of death encompassed me, The torrents of perdition, made me afraid;
Psa 18:5 The meshes of hades, had surrounded me, The snares of death, had confronted me, (Rotherham)

Psa 18:4 The cables of death have enveloped me, And the torrents of decadence, they frighten me."
Psa 18:5 The cables of the unseen, they surrounded me; The traps of death have confronted me." (CLV)

Psa 18:4  Compassed me have cords of death, And streams of the worthless make me afraid.
Psa 18:5  Cords of Sheol have surrounded me, Before me have been snares of death. (YLT)

So this should help you see that it is an expression, He was being held in death by cords/cables/meshes/pains and does not mean He was in literal agony.

Hope this helps. It's good to see it more clearly for myself.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

Here is how I looked at it  (Whom, God, raised up) JESUS (loosing the pangs of death) has no more pain from dying (inasmuch as it was, not possible, for him to continue held fast by it.) because it is impossible for him to retain it.


Dan

Dan, I highlighted in bold what I am about to comment on.

The pain of dying had already ended when He died (ceased to be alive) and if there is no feeling or thoughts in death, then what is the agony of it?

Kat,

I think that the key word here is "of." It does not say "loosed the pains 'in' death," meaning the state of being dead. But "loosed the pains OF the death," which would have been the act/agony of dying, experiencing His own death. I believe that the agony was in the knowledge of knowing He would be death, all life removed from Him.

Knowing what I thought I knew about death, even I would not agonize over knowing that I am about to die.  Perhaps knowing the way Christ was going to die was certainly agonizing for Him as we well know from the Garden.  Regardless, the sequence in which this scripture is written clearly says He was loosed from the pangs or pains or agony of death AFTER he was dead.  As I said to Dan, the agony of dying or the agony of anticipating His painful death had already ended three days before He was raised up.

I understand there are tons of other scriptures contradicting this one scripture, I just don't understand why it is there in the sequence it was inspired, and written.

Eileen

Eileen I think you got it the first time.
Like Ray said, its not rocket science.

The resurrection itself is what freed Christ from the agony of death.
Think about it, Christ's last memory was being on the cross, being in pain, being in agony. What was the next thought? Freedom from pain and agony and death because he now has a spiritual/glorified body.
The scripture is true.
He was loosed by reason of resurrection

Also remember having assurance(state of mind)(spiritual) of resurrection doesn't free you from physical pain.
Paul said the resurrection was our only hope. With this still in mind he experienced many sufferings and pains in his life.

Hope this helps Eileen

Antaiwan

[EKnight]

The resurrection itself is what freed Christ from the agony of death.
Think about it, Christ's last memory was being on the cross, being in pain, being in agony. What was the next thought? Freedom from pain and agony and death because he now has a spiritual/glorified body.

I think this clarifies it or is at least in keeping with what I've learned here.

Thanks Antaiwan.

Also, the second part "because it was not possible that he should be held by it" means God had to raise Christ from the dead in order to fulfill the rest of the prophecy, right?

Eileen

[Stacey]

Like Ray said, its not rocket science.

No, its something far more complex than rocket science. Its Brain Scrabble! 

Been following this topic, thanks for starting it Eileen.

The resurrection itself is what freed Christ from the agony of death.
Think about it, Christ's last memory was being on the cross, being in pain, being in agony. What was the next thought? Freedom from pain and agony and death because he now has a spiritual/glorified body.

This really nailed it down for me, thanks!

[Deborah-Leigh]

This is a GREAT Thread!

Plenty evidence of the patient Fruit-of-the-Spirit listening, consideration and application of the Word of God showing that, though God's Word may at first feel to us that God contradicts Himself, THAT is simply the door to go through, God willing,  into His illuminating liberating Truth! 

Arc

[Marky Mark]

Acts 2:24  whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

This is what I have found about this phrase "pains of death." The original Hebrew means “snares” or “traps” or “cords” of death where sheol and death are personified as hunters laying snares for prey. How Peter or Luke came to use the old Greek word ōdinas (birth pangs) we do not know. Early Christian writers interpreted the Resurrection of Christ as a birth out of death. “Loosing” (lusas) suits better the notion of “snares” held a prisoner by death, but birth pangs do bring deliverance to the mother also. (Robertson's)

Kat,I think your answer is right on. I too came across the same info in looking for a proper answer,good job. Thank-you.

I could not help thinking about this cord of death thing.

Just as the umbilical cord that is attached to the fetus from the mother was designed to give life to the baby before birth, then, after delivery, the cord is then severed so that the baby can live free from the constraints of his/her mother, leads me to this thought.
  It seems to me that the cord that Jesus was attached to in death, in the grave, was also severed so that He could be born again of the Spirit,free from the confines of the cords that held Him in the grave. When the Father gave life back to His Son, Jesus was then free from the cord that bound Him in death,just as a newborn baby is freed from the darkness of the womb. How wonderful a plan is that,engineered,designed and certified from the beginning. Christ being the Truth and the Way in the form of a reborn Spirit in which He is the Firstfruit . As much as I hate being tied down at times in my own misunderstandings of things Spiritual,I can not help to always pray that The Most High continues to cut the cord to my own Spiritual short comings. Now I wait with more patience for my freedom from these earthly constraints [cords] that all of us need to endure.  Amen...

The resurrection itself is what freed Christ from the agony of death.
Think about it, Christ's last memory was being on the cross, being in pain, being in agony. What was the next thought? Freedom from pain and agony and death because he now has a spiritual/glorified body.
The scripture is true.
He was loosed by reason of resurrection

Also remember having assurance(state of mind)(spiritual) of resurrection doesn't free you from physical pain.
Paul said the resurrection was our only hope. With this still in mind he experienced many sufferings and pains in his life.

Hope this helps Eileen

Antaiwan

Thank you Antaiwan for your answer,sure makes a lot of Spiritual sense.



Peace...Mark

[Kat]

This has been a wonderful and inlightening discussion. Everyone's contribution has aided in this unfolding so that we all have a much better understanding I believe. This has been sweet, as this verse explains.

Pro 24:13  My son, eat honey because it is good,
       And the honeycomb which is sweet to your taste;
Pro 24:14  So shall the knowledge of wisdom be to your soul;
       If you have found it, there is a prospect,
       And your hope will not be cut off.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

This has been a wonderful and inlightening discussion. Everyone's contribution has aided in this unfolding so that we all have a much better understanding I believe. This has been sweet, as this verse explains.

Pro 24:13  My son, eat honey because it is good,
       And the honeycomb which is sweet to your taste;
Pro 24:14  So shall the knowledge of wisdom be to your soul;
       If you have found it, there is a prospect,
       And your hope will not be cut off.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

That is profound, beautiful and delightful Kathy! How far The Lord has Blessed us to have come!

Blessings
Arc