Fleecing the Flock

[grapehound]

Hello Beloved !

I was recently listening to our Brother Ray on "Sowing Spiritual Seed" audio Part 2, where he is, quite rightly, railing against the false shepherds of Babylon for extorting money from the poor to finance their lusts for a 'Jet Set' lifestyle.

He went on to say, that a common excuse from the victims of such heretical fraud was to deny any wrong doing, as it was up to these Wolves what to do with the money, but that THEY (the victims) had acted in good faith and had done their GOOD part, and that God would hold nothing against THEM for their part in giving.

Then there was an 'Oh Really?' moment,(Love this man !)
Ray then cited :

2Ch 19:2  And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

Considering this, I then compared:

Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I understand that Jesus is here establishing the New Covenant of the Spirit over the Old Covenant of the Letter, so I hope you understand my problem; and why I have enquired of this.

What think Ye ?

I feel certain that you can reconcile this and I'm just missing something.

Every Blessing

Grape x

[arion]

Just off the cuff, personally I don't see a problem here or with reconciling both points.  Is it not possible to love these false shepherds without falling for their schemes and giving them your money?  If someone is ignorant of how the false shepherds misrepresent the biblical tithe and give money to them in ignorance than this is for God to judge as He alone knows the hearts.  Once we come into understanding of how Babylon manipulates the scripture into extorting money and we know the truth of the matter then I do believe that God will hold us accountable for our new found knowledge. (Lk12:48) But this again is for God to judge because He knows the heart.

[grapehound]

Thanks Arion,

Is it not possible to love these false shepherds without falling for their schemes and giving them your money?

Yes. I agree. It is possible, but the point is,

If someone is ignorant

Ray is saying that they were not ignorant of what the 'Wolves' were doing with their tithes, but declare themselves not responsible, as their part (of giving) was honouring to God.

Which is what prompted Ray to search for such a Scripture.
And he found one !


Grape

[Deborah-Leigh]

 Hi Gary,

Whenever the Scriptures appear to be out of kilter, not in unison, or at worst, contradicting, then you can be sure you are missing something which is a wonderful opportunity, invitation and blessing not unlike described to you in this Scripture :  Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My Voice, and open the door, I will come in to Him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.

I believe you have heard that knock on the door of your heart. You have already discerned that Ray found a Scripture to edify and compare spiritual with spiritual. Ray also says that over ninety percent of all his enquiries are from those who are concerned or need answers because they are seeing something that appears to them, to be making God look like He is contradicting Himself or has made a mistake. God doesn't do either! What is required for understanding, is the Spirit of God who says Himself : Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The Truth is not just one word, sentence or Scripture!

Ray expounds that Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever. (ASV)...so I have put a few more Scriptures that might bring you a deeper knowledge and love for your God as He brings you the understanding that your question doesn't show Him up as being in contradiction of Himself, it rather shows that He is calling YOU to a deeper understanding of Him.



2Ch 19:2  And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him. And he said to King Jehoshaphat, Should you help the ungodly and love those who hate Jehovah? And by this bring wrath on you from before Jehovah.
2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Rom 12:19  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Luk 16:13  No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

THAT is a fact. NO ONE can serve TWO masters. One master is physical and carnal and the other is spiritual and Godly.  The Spiritual cannot be received by the natural man. The natural man cannot resist physical, literal carnality. The Spiritual comes from above and is above all.

Joh 3:31  He who comes from above is above all. He whose origin is from the earth is not only himself from the earth, his teaching also is from the earth. He who comes from Heaven is above all. .1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.Joh 3:32  And what He hath seen and heard, that He testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony.    1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.     1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Blessings to you in your God given desire to come to know Christ Jesus with that Phileo love, that is not of the world but of YOUR intimate Friend and Trustworthy King ~ that He is.

Does this make sense?
Arc

[grapehound]

Hi Deborah,
Thanks for that !
I know, of a TRUTH, that God's word does NOT contradict.
Knowing this of a certainty, gives me that assured, unquestionable 'peace that passes all understanding'.

I understand that when incidences such as this arise, there is no question that the contradiction must be in MAN and not in the infallible Word of God.

I absolutely know that contradiction of His Word is impossible, so the only possible explanation is MY inability to reconcile one to the other; which is the very reason for this post.

Your inclusion of so many "key" Scriptures here is of great benefit, as I search toward that end, of, as you so succinctly put it "making sense".
Herein lies our goal.
I look forward to any likewise, constructive advice that can be offered by my Brothers and Sisters.

Every Blessing

Grape

[Kat]

Hi Grape,

Just a little perspective on this story:
Good king Jehoshaphat had allianced himself with Ahab king of Israel, an idolater and murderer, in his expedition for the recovery of Remoth-gilead from the Syrians. Jehoshaphat barely escaped, by God's intervention (2Ch 18:28-32) and Ahab was wounded and later died. On his return from the battle Jehoshaphat was met by the prophet Jehu and reproved for helping so bad a man as Ahab.  

2Ch 19:2  And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD is upon you.  

Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Yes we are to love everybody, even our enemy, but does that mean it's alright to form a alignance with them?  Here is an excerpt from the 'Love ' transcript, I think it will help your understanding.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.msg27959.html#msg27959 ------

We've stepped out of Sunday School now, and we're going to a little higher level. You can have this agapao love, for something you hate. What, yes you can, proof, God does. He hated Esau, He hates a false witness, He hates people. He doesn't just hate false witnesses, He hates a false witness, that's a person, you see.

The Christian world would have you believe, He loves the world sooo much. But the Concordance version has it right, John 3:16 "For thus God loves the world..." Not how much He loved the world, although it was a lot, but that is not what the word said.  It does not say, for God loved the world so much, no. It says this is how He loved the world, that's what it means.  He didn't so love the world, He thus loved the world, in this way and this manner. Now in what manner did He agape the world, "He gave His only begotten Son," okay.  But if you say, God so loved the world, then you are insinuating He has phileo love for the world, right. That He has this affectionate, endearment of friendship with the world, because He so loved the world.  NO.

This is the manner He loved them, He loved them with this agapao love, which has the benefit and future of humanity at heart. Nowhere does it say, God phileo loves the world, or any sinner in the world, mark that. This is too deep for the world, they can't except this, the same way they can't except that God created evil and uses it often.  But we have to deal with what scripture says or you might as well fall under the condemnation of the verses that says, "Because you despise this Word," (Isa 30:12; Jere 23:17), if you won't believe what it says.
v
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We can love our neighbor, with an agape love, we don't need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies. If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.

But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area. God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies.
First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies. Well, where did they hear that of old?  About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody. That was King David, not God.  But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said. Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.

But Christ said, but I say unto you, love your enemies - agapao your enemies. Can you love your enemies and hate them at the same time? Well, you say no you can't, that's a contradiction. Well, let's think about that for a second. Could God hate Esau and love him a the same time? Not only could He, the Bible tells us that, and it shows that He did. He shows more favor to Jacob then He did for Esau, and yet you can find some pretty strong promises and blessings (even though He said I hate Esau), you can find blessings on Esau in the Bible I can show you them.

God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world. Why?, because I agapao them. God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality. I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao. Maybe we need to learn to do that too. If we're going to be like God, right.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[grapehound]

Kat,

I thank Our God for shining that light through Ray and focussing it through you !
What an AWESOME teaching!
I am absolutely blown away by the magnificence of His intellect and counsel that shines out of those that love Him.

I am so grateful for your obedience to the urging of His Spirit and service to His flock.
As I am forever witnessing here, His servants are perfectly appointed and diligent in equipping the few with unearthly, mind boggling TRUTH !

I am exceedingly and humbly grateful. 

I think I'll go and lie down quietly somewhere until that sinks in.

Understatement of the century :

We've stepped out of Sunday School now, and we're going to a little higher level.

Say Whaaat? !!!!

Priceless. Utterly and Omnipotently Priceless.

Every Blessing in His Service,

Horizontal Grapehound x   

[Nan]

This is too deep for the world, they can't except this, the same way they can't except that God created evil and uses it often. 
Does Ray mean 'accept'? 

[grapehound]

Yes, Nan, he means 'accept'



Grape x

[Ninny]

Nan, sometimes it's just hard when they're trying to get the texts out to us as quickly as possible...I don't know anything about it really I just know that we get these notes and stuff from the conferences and Bible studies pretty quickly so they are done fast! I just pay attention when I'm printing them out and listen to the tape or the video if I have a question..usually you can tell by the context what word is actually used..then I just correct it myself on my copy!  If it is really hard to understand then you can ask just like you did! 
No big deal, just my observations!
Kathy

[Nan]

Ninny and Grapehound,
I was pretty sure Ray meant accept, but I wanted to be sure. Thanks both of you for your response.

[Kat]

If anyone comes across a misspelling or something does not sound right in a transcript you can post a question or sent me a pm and I will check and correct. Thanks for the heads up Nan.

Kat

[grapehound]

thanks Kat