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Author Topic: Deuteronomy 30:19  (Read 10076 times)

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SDDiver

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Deuteronomy 30:19
« on: September 14, 2010, 04:19:51 PM »

Of all scriptual truths that I learn here, the absence of a "free will" is still the most difficult to fully wrap my puny mind around. Would the following scripture be an example of God ultimately being responsible and us being accountable for our choices?

“This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live” (Deuteronomy 30:19).

To me, this speaks of God's souvereignty and that He is indeed the cause for all our choices; it also seems that He gives us a good option and a bad option and leaves it up to us whichever one we want to pick in the end. And depending on what we pick, we will live (or die) with the consequences.

From this it would seem that we can "freely" choose between the options set before us. I did a search on this scripture in the forum and nothing popped up.

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Kat

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 05:20:28 PM »

Hi SDDiver,

Quote
To me, this speaks of God's souvereignty and that He is indeed the cause for all our choices; it also seems that He gives us a good option and a bad option and leaves it up to us whichever one we want to pick in the end. And depending on what we pick, we will live (or die) with the consequences.

From this it would seem that we can "freely" choose between the options set before us. I did a search on this scripture in the forum and nothing popped up.

I believe what you are suggesting here is a 'limited' free will? No such thing. Here is what Ray says about that.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html --------------------

LIMITED FREE WILL

The free will scholars themselves have had to re-adjust their theory in the light of obvious scientific and Scriptural proof against free will. They assure us that although man does not possess total free will, he does, nonetheless, possess "limited free will." That is, man’s will is limited, but within those limits, the will is completely and totally free. Oh really?
v
Here is how my Twentieth Century Webster’s Dictionary defines "limited, a. restricted" (Page 963). And here is how this same dictionary defines "free, a. without restriction" (Page 682). Got it? "Limited" means: RESTRICTED, and "free" means: WITHOUT RESTRICTION.

So scholarly theologians would have us believe that man possesses a will that is, "RESTRICTED WITHOUT RESTRICTION." What? Does anyone see a problem with this limited free will theory? Does the word "contradiction" come to mind?

Now then, if the natural carnal mind of man cannot choose to love and obey God, and God absolutely will not cause one to love and obey Him, how is it then that ANYONE CAN EVER BE CONVERTED? Do any of you who believe in man’s free will or man’s limited free will have an answer to this Scriptural dilemma? Or do you all feel more comfortable just leaving these questions behind as though they were never proposed in the first place? I mean, why meditate on a problem that has no Scriptural answer other than to accept the fact that the Scriptures do not support any form of a "free will" theory?
v
The subject is not can a man make a choice. The subject is can a man make a choice to obey God with his natural mind?

And time and again I have shown you that God says in His Word that the natural, unaided mind of man cannot "will" and choose to do good.

The Scriptures have already concluded that man’s will is not free to do that which it cannot do. Yet should God intervene and cause this same person to repent and turn to God in obedience, how can this same person take credit for repenting and turning to God, seeing that it was ALL OF GOD? Yes, the human mind and will can will and can choose to obey God, but only when God causes it to do so.

Did Jesus obey His God and Father, without a cause?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly—what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!] I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…" (John 5:19).

"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"

Can we obey our Lord Jesus Christ, without a cause?

"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

"WITHOUT ME YE [‘ye’ means ‘ALL of you’] CAN DO NOTHING"

I repeat:

"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"

"WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING"

Where then is the "freedom of will" and "freedom of choice" in these two statements of God’s Word? They are nowhere. There is no such thing. They don’t exist. The theory of "free moral agency" is one of the foolish and stupid wisdoms of this world.

"Love NOT the world, neither the things [nor the stupid wisdom] that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT in him... And the world PASSES AWAY…" (I John 2:15 & 17).

The very second that something causes one’s will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free.
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It seems we try to hold on to some degree of free will, just not wanting to let go of it all together. But we have to totally let go of this notion. When we let go and truly give God complete sovereignty, it will open up so much that we could not see before.

Here is another excerpt from a Bible study 'Free Will is an oxymoron.'


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5154.0 ---------------

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul said when I would do good, evil is there.  Where is the free will?  Why didn’t Paul just free will himself out of all this stuff?  He said what is going to save one from this destruction of my own carnal mind and ways, what?  He said grace!  I thank God through Jesus  Christ that there is a power strong enough to do in me, what I can’t free will myself to do.  
Why can’t theologians see that?  They despise the Word of God.  What was Paul’s ministry before Christ came into his life?  DUNG.   He summarized his whole ministry - dung.  Is that good?  Why is it if we have free will it’s of no value until we come to Christ?  
Well of course the Calvinists teach that’s the way it is.  They say you don’t have free will until you come to Christ and then you have free will.  Well here is the truth in one verse.

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

People like to quote that and say, ‘you got to do it yourself, it’s your own free will.’  No no no no no.  The reason you do it with fear and trembling is the next verse.

Phi 2:13  For(because) it is God which works in you BOTH(2 things) to will and to do of His good pleasure.

That’s God, not your free will!  God does that!  
We throw out God and we take on ourselves this little demigod called free will.  Therefore we despise the sovereignty of God.  We despise the Word of God and you are not going to grow spiritually.  You got to know who and what God is in relationship to who and what you are, or you will never grow spiritually.  
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 05:23:19 PM by Kat »
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SDDiver

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 05:54:04 PM »

Thanks for your reply Kat. I think I understand what you have posted. I've read (and re-re-re-re read) this article before and it's sinking in (slowly)

So in Deuteronomy 30:19, when God says that it is He who sets before us life and death, blessing and curse, and then goes on saying to choose life - does He "force" us to choose the one? With no option to choose the other?

Just trying to understand. So much to learn still.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 06:13:25 PM »


Hi SDDiver

We are "sinning machines" L Ray Smith

You are correct that God does set before us life and death, good and evil, and God does tell us what to do, what to choose, how to behave, what He likes and what He abhors, and we disobey. We may know what to do, and we don't do it. We may even want to do the right thing, and we find ourselves not doing it. Our Brother Paul wrote of this:

Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


Our preferences are AUTOMATIC not forced, and are governed by our spiritual condition. The more free we are in the Spirit of Christ, the more we accomplish what is pleasing in the sight of God. The desire and the accomplishment to please God both come from God. The more carnal we are, the less able we are to do what is Godly.
 
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So how free is that ~ not at all !

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 I can empathise with you that it takes more than a quick glance to assimilate the Sovereignty of God, and, that He controls everything and everyone!

Arc
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servias

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 06:48:55 PM »

Wouldn't it be amazing to sit down with God and go over his blueprints of creation?  Way too complicated to wrap our little brains around in our carnal mind.

I look at free will like this...God is like a computer programmer, he wrote the script, he knows exactly what he programmed.  Along the way he has made edits to the program (importantly he knew he was to do these edits).  These edits we may call miracle's, answered prayers, etc.  But most edits we will never see, like bumping into someone at the supermarket who then bumps into their future wife/husband.  Any little thing that we do is an experience that is needed to either influence us or someone or something else.

Think about this...He had to know exactly the right time to bring Jesus to us - - He had to know exactly who to follow Jesus at the exact point in time to enable his exact copy of what was written in the bible.  One little screw up even a miscarriage 100 years before could have turned the tables completely.  As weird as this may sound to some, its just too hard to completely comprehend.  as Ray says "we cannot outsmart GOD" (not sure where I read that).  Me personally I can sit here and ponder these thoughts for hours.  Makes me feel great that am part of his plan even if it is a small one.  Hopefully this may help one of you grasp "NO FREE WILL" a little better.  I am also grateful that someday God will run his virus scanner on us  ;).
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Kat

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 07:25:18 PM »


Hi SDDiver,

I do understand how difficult it is to fully comprend (if it is even possible to fully comprend) this idea of no free will. We have all assumed this to be so all of our life and took it for granted that we have this power to direct events ourself. But for God to truly be soverenign and know the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10), then He must also know every detail inbetween. So there can not be anything whatsoever that He does not know will happen exactly the way it will.

I realize as you say you have read the articles already, but there is so much to take in in them. So I bring these excerpts out (because Ray has already explained these things so well) to try an address the specific question. This is more from the 'Free Will is an Oxymoron' Bible study.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5154.0 -----------

If humanity has free will and they can choose to do good.  Why don’t they?  What’s wrong?  I have theologians say, and I’ll quote them,  “It’s the most marvelous gift God has given to humanity is free will, it‘s the most marvelous gift of all.”  If this gift is so wonderful, why doesn’t it ever work?  Why is it broken?  Why does it malfunction 100% of the time?  Why doesn’t it work?  
You got free will, which means there is nothing that causes you to do evil, when you can just as easily do good, nothing.  So why don’t you?  Why hasn’t anyone?  Where is the first human (save Jesus Christ) that ever lived that way?  And why did Jesus do it, because He had free will?  “Of My own self I can do nothing.” (John 5:30)
v
Am I going to fast for anybody?  It doesn’t work.  Even if we had free will, we know for a historical, Biblical fact it doesn’t work.  It has never worked.  What good is it?  But we don’t even have it.  We don’t have it, it’s an oxymoron.  YOU can’t come to Christ.  Even though they say, ‘you’ve got a free will.’  The Bible says you can’t come to Christ, you can‘t choose Him.  You can’t seek God, no one seeks God.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God(spiritual laws of God), neither indeed can be.

Well you say, ‘I got a free will, I can be subject if I want.”  NO YOU CAN’T.  Did Eve have a free will, that she could resist Satan?  No.  The first temptation and it was all over, down she went.  Adam wasn’t deceived and he choose the same way. But God forbid that He would teach us right from wrong, what an evil that is.
 
Then they get into these strong words, like they say, ‘well if God has to ‘force’ us to love Him, what good is that?’  Well let me reword it, what if God has to ‘inspire’ us to love Him, how marvelous is that.  It’s one thing to be ‘forced’ to write a book you don’t want to write.  It’s another thing to be ‘inspired’ to write a book, you can’t wait to write.  Do you see a difference?  Don’t you see a little difference there?  Notice what David said to God.

Psalms 119:71  “It is GOOD for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.”

It’s good.  The Bible said it’s good.  It’s good!  They say, ‘oh it’s bad, if you don’t obey God’s statues, by your own free will, it’s useless.’  ‘If God has to force you to love Him what kind of love is that?’  
But what if He inspires you.  What if He has to punish sometimes to get your mind straightened out.  As long as you get your mind straightened out, what’s wrong with that?  There is nothing wrong with that.  That’s how you get obedient children.
v
It’s interesting, you can always look at things in a negative and positive ways, when you might even have the same results in mind.  Somebody will say, ‘do you think God forces us to love Him?’  I say, well to some degree maybe, but why don’t we use the word ‘inspire.’

This guy sent me an email and he said, ‘Ray there is a difference between forcing and inspiring.’  I said, oh really.  Do they both cause something to happen?  Well then they are both a ‘cause’ and whatever causes something to happen, makes it happen, so it happened.  So it’s really immaterial what it was that causes it to happen, if it was something else that brought it about, right.
v
So what they are saying is, if God inspires you to love, it’s a good thing, if He causes you to love, it’s not so good, and if He forces you to love, it’s evil.  

 
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1937.0.html -----

There are HUNDREDS of places in the Scriptures which speak of doing something, making a decision, choosing between two things, etc. Not ONE of them has anything to do with "free" will.  You need to read the first couple of pages of the first of my four-part series on the Free Will Myth. I answer it in great detail after I first define what is meant by "free will" or "free choice.' Everyone has the bility to make choice, but that choice is based on SOME CAUSE, and that cause is what renders the choice to be not free.
 
God forsaw EVERYTHING in His creation BEFORE the creation. Therefore, nothing is "free" to go contrary to what God already knows MUST AND WILL BE!  "For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).  We must first believe the Scriptures before e will be able to understand the Scriptures.
      

God be with you,

Ray

« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 07:29:55 PM by Kat »
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SDDiver

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 08:01:11 PM »

These are all great insights and I thank you all!! What a wonderful group of saints. What a sanctuary on the internet to retreat to. God bless you all!

I don't want to beat this to death but if I may go back to “my” scripture just one more time.

If I paraphrase it a little to say, “I set before thee the option to do thine job diligently or otherwise to surf the web all day, so choose to work so that thou wilt not get fired” – it is obvious what the right thing to do is; but I can do one or the other, or can I? Let’s say I choose to do the wrong thing then it was God who has caused me to do it. Right? But why does He ask me to do the right thing if I can’t choose it? Or can I? Dagnabbit.

I’ve chosen several wrong and bad things since I got up this morning. I wish there was an undo button sometimes. But then again, if I really had “undone” anything in my past life, then I would not be where I am today. Everything just had to happen the way it did. So I guess it’s true. I couldn’t have chosen differently. Yet God asks me to choose the right thing.

It makes me think of our kitten. When we first brought him home, he had the choice to use the litterbox in order to deposit his diarrhea, or instead to use the bed. He didn’t use the litterbox. I wanted him to use it though, but I had a feeling that he wouldn’t the first couple tries (I had “foreknown” it). He had a choice and he chose wrongly but certainly not because we made him choose wrongly. (I'm over it now and no longer holding a grudge)

Really, I don't think it's the no-free-will issue that is causing me problems. I'm able to humbly accept this and concur with you all that if God is sovereign (and He is), then He is in charge of every little detail of our life and our choices.

My question from the get-go should have been, why is God asking us to choose something that He knows we won’t choose?
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mmijares

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 09:18:30 PM »

Hi SD,

It was not the first time God ask human to make a choice.

Gen 2:16  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God did give Adam and Eve a choice and yet...and yet!...God knew (caused!) them to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, anyway.  Why was it so?  My mind kind of goes like round and round on this.  I shall also wait our brothers/sisters to answer this.

Mij
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Kat

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 10:52:42 PM »


Okay it's good to work through these questions so we can more precisely get to what you need to know.

Quote
why is God asking us to choose something that He knows we won’t choose?

The thing is God makes it clear throughout Scripture what He expects of us. Therefore we are without excuse as to what we are suppose to do. He has told us from the beginning right from wrong, good from evil. So we are finding out for ourself, by experience, that just like Paul we can not do the right thing.

Rom 7:19  For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

So God tells us what is right and good, but we prove to ourselves that we, of ourself, are incapable of doing it. This excerpt is not exactly about your question, but I think it will help.

http://bible-truths.com/part5.htm -----------------------

The Scriptures say that: "All is of God ... " (II Cor. 5:18), yet we just read that God " ... is trying no one." That is, God Himself, is not trying or testing us to see how well we fare. He already knows the verdict. He already knows, that we don't "fare" well at all. God knows all (I John 3:21). The reason God doesn't, Himself, try anyone is because He doesn't need to try anyone for His benefit-He already knows all. Notice Webster's Dictionary: "trial, 1. the act of hearing a case in a law court to DECIDE WHETHER the claim or charge is true." Surely, no one is so audacious as to think God needs evidence in a trial to determine the truth. God sends the trials, but God does not do the trying-He already knows the outcome-but man doesn't. Man desperately needs trials to prove to himself (not God), that he is a failure and needs a Saviour. The trials are for our benefit, for our learning, not for God's benefit and God's learning - God knows all.

We can accomplish no good of ourselves. What we are to learn is contained in the next passage: "Be not deceived [but of course, most people are deceived], my beloved brethren! ALL GOOD giving and EVERY perfect gratuity is from above, descending from the FATHER of lights ... " (Jas. 1:16). That is the lesson we, not God, are to learn and our trials are a great aid in understanding God's goodness.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Patrick

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 12:22:06 AM »

Quote from: mmijares
God did give Adam and Eve a choice and yet...and yet!...God knew (caused!) them to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, anyway.  Why was it so? 

Short answer; because it's all part of His plan, just one of the many "acts" in the "play" of creation by our Sovereign God!

A longer answer;
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it." Jewish Publication Society (emphasis mine; why was it so?)

Romans 8:20.
"For the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] was made [put under, subordinate to, to obey] subject to vanity [Gk: ‘futility’], not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.

So back to Paul’s questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That’s right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:

"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).

GOD IS THE POTTER AND WE ARE THE POT

Could anything be plainer? God, the Potter, does not owe an explanation to the pot as to why He made the pot the way He desired! And God desires to make some pots honorable and some pots dishonorable. Why? Because He is a mean and nasty God? No, because He has a plan, a purpose, intentions, to save all humanity in the end. That IS THE "WILL" OF GOD.

WHAT CAUSED EVE TO SIN WILLINGLY?

Did Eve herself think that she "freely" willed to sin WITHOUT A CAUSE?

"And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said [Yes, just what did ‘the woman say?’ Did she say that she "freely willed" to commit this sin? Did she say it was her and all her and nothing but her that did this? Or did she say…], The SERPENT BEGUILED ME… [and BECAUSE the serpent beguiled or deceived her, we now have a CAUSE], and I did eat" (Gen. 3:13).

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, you are cursed above all cattle…" (Verse 14).

There it is. God’s Own answer. But will we accept God’s answer? For most, probably not.

God plainly said that it was the serpent who "has done this." Eve said it was the serpent that deceived her and God Himself also conceded that it was the serpent that "HAS DONE THIS." That was the CAUSE, and that was the reason for the serpent’s punishment.


WHAT CAUSED ADAM TO SIN WILLINGLY?

Or do the Scriptures tell us that he too was CAUSED to have his will do what he did?

"And the man said, THE WOMAN whom You gave to be with me, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, and I did eat" (Ver. 12).

"And unto Adam He said, Because [‘because’—here is the real CAUSE] YOU HAVE HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE, and have eaten of the tree …" (Ver. 17).

THE SOURCE OF ALL POWER
"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:10-11).

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daywalker

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 02:20:44 AM »


It takes awhile for it to really begin to sink in... The hardest part is we keep going back to "can" we make choices... But whether or not we "can" make choices has nothing to do with "free" will... The question isn't "can" we make choices, but "WHY" do we make the choices that we make? No matter what the decision is--right or wrong--there was a "reason" [or perhaps "many reasons"] WHY we did what we did. And this is why our will isn't "free".

The simplest example I always use [and Ray uses it too] is the Weather. Cold weather "causes" us to wear a jacket or sweater. Sure we "make the choice" to put on a jacket, but it wasn't a "free" choice. Sometimes it's a bit harder to figure out what the cause is for certain choices, but there IS ALWAYS a "reason" or "cause" for every choice we make.


Hope that helps.

Daywalker  8)
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GaryK

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 11:35:08 AM »

Thanks for your reply Kat. I think I understand what you have posted. I've read (and re-re-re-re read) this article before and it's sinking in (slowly)

So in Deuteronomy 30:19, when God says that it is He who sets before us life and death, blessing and curse, and then goes on saying to choose life - does He "force" us to choose the one? With no option to choose the other?

Just trying to understand. So much to learn still.


You're not alone in this spiritual battle.

Ray certainly recognizes the spiritual battle one must live through in the giving up of the 'free-will' notion:


THE WISDOM OF THIS WORLD

“I will show that free will is indeed an "idol of the heart" which needs to be repented of. And of all man’s sacred cows, free will is the most sacred of all. It is undoubtedly the most difficult doctrine in man’s walk with God to acknowledge and give up.”

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
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Joel

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 11:24:46 PM »

If we look back to the beginning, there was only GOOD and EVIL, no free will between the two. We can't be fence sitters, as Ray has explained so many times, "WE ARE SINNING MACHINES.
As Ray has also stated many times, we make many many choices on a daily bases, all choices are based on any number of reasons, usually our own lust, and carnality most of the time.
All the good choices are because God deems it so, can a pot makes it's own self honorable and Godly?
We are either doing good, or we are doing evil, it's either black or it's white, honorable or dishonorable.
I count myself blessed that God has allowed me to see and understand truths that He has inspired Ray to expound on from the scriptures.
God is Spirit and Jesus is the Word, he had to do the will of the Father that sent him.
People have a spirit and we think, and mull over things in our minds and decide what we are going to do in differant circumstances as we make choices.
James said that we need to watch our tongues though, Jesus didn't have to because his thoughts and actions were given him by the Father, Spirit to the Word.
Again, we are blessed to have Truths clearly shown to us if we have the Spiritual eyes to see them, and that too is a gift from God the Father through Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Savior. I pray that we all be lead by the Spirit of God, and that his will be done in all things.

Joel
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gmik

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 11:37:25 PM »

Love this topic as I just had a go round w/ a friend hung up on it.

Daywalker, could you expound on your metaphor???  I may have several rain jackets in my closet?  Am I free to choose which one I wear??  (I am serious)  thanks.
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Kat

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 01:11:04 AM »


Hi Gena,

I think what really bothers us about the idea of no free will is we think then we would be no more than robots. That our actions are not our own if they are always caused by something else. Well here is an email from Ray that might help a little more with this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html -------

you are not understanding properly. OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE.  Whose do think it is?  When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice?  If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth?  Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well?  No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it?  We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.       

        Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what?  It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE.  Can you now understand it?

        Do you still think you are a robot?  I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.

        God be with you,

        Ray

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servias

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2010, 02:02:15 AM »

Great find Kat!
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2010, 07:30:36 AM »


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html -------

 You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not?...........

        Do you still think you are a robot?  I hope not.

        God be with you,

        Ray



In that  statement lies a treasure chest of life giving clarity! 8)

Never mind the desert! We CHOOSE what we PREFER.
 
What we prefer is in accord to our Spiritual condition ~ whether we act, think and live in accord to what is pleasing to our God or whether we are yet carnal, living in accord to our lust of the flesh out of which only the Spirit of God can drag us, conform us, repent us and CHANGE us into His Image! Our Brother Paul said something so very important.
 

1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Yet, even the ability to judge ourselves, comes from God. 8) We can do nothing of our own yet if it is pleasing to God, according to the Council of His Will, that we are given to judge ourselves as a gift of the Spirit of God, then….

1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned WITH THE WORLD.

Only God and His Spirit can cause that to happen! God gives the desire and the ability to accomplish the Godly desires only He can give.

Arc
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 07:33:09 AM by Arcturus »
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gmik

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2010, 02:06:53 PM »

thanks all of you ....I printed this entire thread...it deserves study..and not so I can refute my friend ( I am giving up on that for now), but study to help me, myself, and I!


John arc and kat thanks so much for adding on!

Kat, those were the words of my friend....totally NOT wanting to be a robot...

Ray's answers are brilliant...He is one of a kind!!!

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SDDiver

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2010, 03:28:02 PM »


Quote
This excerpt is not exactly about your question, but I think it will help.

http://bible-truths.com/part5.htm -----------------------

Thank you Kat! I had not read this article before and yes, it helped tremendously indeed. One question though - where did you find it? There does not appear to be a link to it on the main page. Are there more "hidden" articles like this?
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Dawidos

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Re: Deuteronomy 30:19
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2010, 03:39:25 PM »

I think those are just parts which are combined into the full article (Two letters for Dr. James Kennedy) available on the home page.
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