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Deuteronomy 30:19
SDDiver:
Of all scriptual truths that I learn here, the absence of a "free will" is still the most difficult to fully wrap my puny mind around. Would the following scripture be an example of God ultimately being responsible and us being accountable for our choices?
“This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live” (Deuteronomy 30:19).
To me, this speaks of God's souvereignty and that He is indeed the cause for all our choices; it also seems that He gives us a good option and a bad option and leaves it up to us whichever one we want to pick in the end. And depending on what we pick, we will live (or die) with the consequences.
From this it would seem that we can "freely" choose between the options set before us. I did a search on this scripture in the forum and nothing popped up.
Kat:
Hi SDDiver,
--- Quote ---To me, this speaks of God's souvereignty and that He is indeed the cause for all our choices; it also seems that He gives us a good option and a bad option and leaves it up to us whichever one we want to pick in the end. And depending on what we pick, we will live (or die) with the consequences.
From this it would seem that we can "freely" choose between the options set before us. I did a search on this scripture in the forum and nothing popped up.
--- End quote ---
I believe what you are suggesting here is a 'limited' free will? No such thing. Here is what Ray says about that.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html --------------------
LIMITED FREE WILL
The free will scholars themselves have had to re-adjust their theory in the light of obvious scientific and Scriptural proof against free will. They assure us that although man does not possess total free will, he does, nonetheless, possess "limited free will." That is, man’s will is limited, but within those limits, the will is completely and totally free. Oh really?
v
Here is how my Twentieth Century Webster’s Dictionary defines "limited, a. restricted" (Page 963). And here is how this same dictionary defines "free, a. without restriction" (Page 682). Got it? "Limited" means: RESTRICTED, and "free" means: WITHOUT RESTRICTION.
So scholarly theologians would have us believe that man possesses a will that is, "RESTRICTED WITHOUT RESTRICTION." What? Does anyone see a problem with this limited free will theory? Does the word "contradiction" come to mind?
Now then, if the natural carnal mind of man cannot choose to love and obey God, and God absolutely will not cause one to love and obey Him, how is it then that ANYONE CAN EVER BE CONVERTED? Do any of you who believe in man’s free will or man’s limited free will have an answer to this Scriptural dilemma? Or do you all feel more comfortable just leaving these questions behind as though they were never proposed in the first place? I mean, why meditate on a problem that has no Scriptural answer other than to accept the fact that the Scriptures do not support any form of a "free will" theory?
v
The subject is not can a man make a choice. The subject is can a man make a choice to obey God with his natural mind?
And time and again I have shown you that God says in His Word that the natural, unaided mind of man cannot "will" and choose to do good.
The Scriptures have already concluded that man’s will is not free to do that which it cannot do. Yet should God intervene and cause this same person to repent and turn to God in obedience, how can this same person take credit for repenting and turning to God, seeing that it was ALL OF GOD? Yes, the human mind and will can will and can choose to obey God, but only when God causes it to do so.
Did Jesus obey His God and Father, without a cause?
"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly—what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!] I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…" (John 5:19).
"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"
Can we obey our Lord Jesus Christ, without a cause?
"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).
"WITHOUT ME YE [‘ye’ means ‘ALL of you’] CAN DO NOTHING"
I repeat:
"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"
"WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING"
Where then is the "freedom of will" and "freedom of choice" in these two statements of God’s Word? They are nowhere. There is no such thing. They don’t exist. The theory of "free moral agency" is one of the foolish and stupid wisdoms of this world.
"Love NOT the world, neither the things [nor the stupid wisdom] that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT in him... And the world PASSES AWAY…" (I John 2:15 & 17).
The very second that something causes one’s will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free.
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It seems we try to hold on to some degree of free will, just not wanting to let go of it all together. But we have to totally let go of this notion. When we let go and truly give God complete sovereignty, it will open up so much that we could not see before.
Here is another excerpt from a Bible study 'Free Will is an oxymoron.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5154.0 ---------------
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Paul said when I would do good, evil is there. Where is the free will? Why didn’t Paul just free will himself out of all this stuff? He said what is going to save one from this destruction of my own carnal mind and ways, what? He said grace! I thank God through Jesus Christ that there is a power strong enough to do in me, what I can’t free will myself to do.
Why can’t theologians see that? They despise the Word of God. What was Paul’s ministry before Christ came into his life? DUNG. He summarized his whole ministry - dung. Is that good? Why is it if we have free will it’s of no value until we come to Christ?
Well of course the Calvinists teach that’s the way it is. They say you don’t have free will until you come to Christ and then you have free will. Well here is the truth in one verse.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
People like to quote that and say, ‘you got to do it yourself, it’s your own free will.’ No no no no no. The reason you do it with fear and trembling is the next verse.
Phi 2:13 For(because) it is God which works in you BOTH(2 things) to will and to do of His good pleasure.
That’s God, not your free will! God does that!
We throw out God and we take on ourselves this little demigod called free will. Therefore we despise the sovereignty of God. We despise the Word of God and you are not going to grow spiritually. You got to know who and what God is in relationship to who and what you are, or you will never grow spiritually.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
SDDiver:
Thanks for your reply Kat. I think I understand what you have posted. I've read (and re-re-re-re read) this article before and it's sinking in (slowly)
So in Deuteronomy 30:19, when God says that it is He who sets before us life and death, blessing and curse, and then goes on saying to choose life - does He "force" us to choose the one? With no option to choose the other?
Just trying to understand. So much to learn still.
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi SDDiver
We are "sinning machines" L Ray Smith
You are correct that God does set before us life and death, good and evil, and God does tell us what to do, what to choose, how to behave, what He likes and what He abhors, and we disobey. We may know what to do, and we don't do it. We may even want to do the right thing, and we find ourselves not doing it. Our Brother Paul wrote of this:
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Our preferences are AUTOMATIC not forced, and are governed by our spiritual condition. The more free we are in the Spirit of Christ, the more we accomplish what is pleasing in the sight of God. The desire and the accomplishment to please God both come from God. The more carnal we are, the less able we are to do what is Godly.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So how free is that ~ not at all !
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
I can empathise with you that it takes more than a quick glance to assimilate the Sovereignty of God, and, that He controls everything and everyone!
Arc
servias:
Wouldn't it be amazing to sit down with God and go over his blueprints of creation? Way too complicated to wrap our little brains around in our carnal mind.
I look at free will like this...God is like a computer programmer, he wrote the script, he knows exactly what he programmed. Along the way he has made edits to the program (importantly he knew he was to do these edits). These edits we may call miracle's, answered prayers, etc. But most edits we will never see, like bumping into someone at the supermarket who then bumps into their future wife/husband. Any little thing that we do is an experience that is needed to either influence us or someone or something else.
Think about this...He had to know exactly the right time to bring Jesus to us - - He had to know exactly who to follow Jesus at the exact point in time to enable his exact copy of what was written in the bible. One little screw up even a miscarriage 100 years before could have turned the tables completely. As weird as this may sound to some, its just too hard to completely comprehend. as Ray says "we cannot outsmart GOD" (not sure where I read that). Me personally I can sit here and ponder these thoughts for hours. Makes me feel great that am part of his plan even if it is a small one. Hopefully this may help one of you grasp "NO FREE WILL" a little better. I am also grateful that someday God will run his virus scanner on us ;).
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