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Just curious as to why Jesus did this..
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: santikos on September 23, 2010, 07:53:04 AM ---thanks for all your inputs. i know it is not a real deep topic but it was one of those things that made me say hmmmm. before i started fellowshipping here i never would have thought anything of it. but since meeting all of you here i now read with a different understanding. so when i read it, i thought of the 12 disciples ruling over the nation gathering all (there were12 extra baskets)so that none be lost. I have not read or listened to all of rays teachings so i am not sure if the 12 ruling diciples are literal or figurtively. it was just food for thought. thanks for your help.
--- End quote ---
Hi santikos,
Actually this is a very deep subject (as is all scripture) that could be discussed at length and potentially mine much gold... I was glad to have come across this topic.
The last verse I quoted was Luke 12:1 which reads;
Luk 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.G5272
G5272
ὑπόκρισις
hupokrisis
hoop-ok'-ree-sis
From G5271; acting under a feigned part; that is, (figuratively) deceit (“hypocrisy”): - condemnation, dissimulation, hypocrisy.
This leaven of the Pharisees could very well be translated as "deceit" ... with a little condemnation and feigned piousness thrown in for good measure.
Can anyone think of an institution or multiple institutions in which they peddle deceit (etc.) under the banner of Christ and His Kingdom?
If there is any interest we could explore this further, if not, I guess we won't! ;D
Peace,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
Hi Everyone,
It appears when Jesus spoke of "the leaven of the Pharisees it was a parable/prophecy that actually applied more to future generations than it did to the apostles themselves although this corruption began in their lifetimes...
Ray wrote a beautiful piece in regard to this subject.
From LOF Part 8;
PAUL SAW THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL
Only a few years into Paul’s ministry, he told the Corinthian Congregation of the corruption already in the Church:
"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ" (II Cor. 2:17).
Now I hope you all know that I love the King James, and it is true as stated in this verse that they "corrupted" the word of God, but this verse tells us much more than the King James translators present in this verse. Let’s read a few other translations of this same verse:
"For we are not, as THE MANY, driving a PETTY TRADE with the word of God…" (A New Translation, By J. B. Rotherham).
"For we are not as the MAJORITY, who are PEDDLING the word of God…" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
"For I seek not PROFIT [LIKE MOST] by setting the word of God TO SALE…" (The Epistles of Paul, By Conybeare).
"Unlike MANY PEOPLE, we are not in the habit of MAKING PROFIT out of God’s Message" (The Twentieth Century New Testament).
"For I am no PEDDLER of God’s message LIKE MOST MEN" (An American Translation, By Goodspeed).
"For I am not like MOST, TRAFFICKING in the word of God" ( The New Testament in Modern English, By Montgomery).
"For we are not like THE GREAT NUMBER who make use of the Word of God for PROFIT" (The New Testament in Basic English).
"For we do not, like SO MANY, PEDDLE [for profit] an adulterated message of God" (The Berkeley Version of the New Testament, By Gerrit Verkuyl).
ADULTERATING HUCKSTERS OF GOD’S WORD
Does anyone have any doubts now, as to what this verse is saying? I hope not. But there is still more in this verse that does not meet the eye of understanding unless we check the Greek. The word from which "corrupt," "profit," "peddling," and "trafficking" was taken, is the Greek word kapeleou, and it means much more than simply selling for a profit: Strong’s Greek Dictionary of The New Testament: #2585. kpeleuo (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by impl.) to adulterate. This word means to be a retailer, to peddle, to hucksterize; hence, intentionally to get base gain by dealing in anything, to do anything for sordid personal advantage." (P. 128). WOW! But wait … here’s one more definition:
From Greek-English Keyword Concordance, "peddle [kapeleu’o], sell at retail, with the insinuation of improper profit, either by overcharging or adulterating"(P. 220).
Can you even begin to understand and believe what you are reading? Paul said that it was the MAJORITY that were retailing, selling, peddling, huckstering, an adulterated version of God’s word by overcharging improper profits far beyond rational living expenses for their own base gain and sordid personal advantage! Not only was this practice CORRUPT, but, it was being done by "THE MANY," "THE MAJORITY!" Tell me that you can’t see this being done in the church today?
THE CHURCH AFTER PAUL’S DEPARTURE
While in Miletus, before going to Caesarea and then up to Jerusalem, Paul gave us a profound prophetic statement regarding the direction the church would take immediately after his departure:
"For I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL THE COUNSEL OF GOD. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to ALL THE FLOCK [the entire Church of God, and remember that ALL of Paul’s epistles were read and distributed by Peter as well to the Jewish saints, II Pet. 3:16-17], over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed THE CHURCH OF GOD, which He has purchased with His own blood. FOR I KNOW THIS, that after my departing shall GRIEVOUS WOLVES enter in among you, NOT SPARING THE FLOCK. Also of your OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking PERVERSE THINGS, to DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEM. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day WITH TEARS [Paul knew and could see how horribly deceived the Church of God was to become]. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified" (Acts 20:27-32).
WOW … Not a pretty picture, is it? It gets worse.
Paul knew that just as he had to come out of religious Babylon, those under his evangelism would also have to one day come out of the New Testament Church of God’s Babylonian practices. In our next installment we will see just what these practices and doctrines of the Seven Churches are, that we must "Come out of…"
Peter witnessed and prophesied of the same conditions in the Church. Listen to Peter’s powerful words of admonition in his last epistle for us:
"But there were false prophets [teachers] also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers AMONG YOU, who privately shall bring in DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [lascivious, licentious, wanton] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be EVIL spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words MAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU…" (II Pet. 2:1-3).
Paul again parrots Peter’s warning in his last words to Timothy in the very last epistle he wrote for us:
"But evil men and seducers [in the church] shall wax WORSE AND WORSE, DECEIVING, AND BEING DECEIVED" (II Tim. 3:13).
So Paul didn’t say that the horrible things already in the Church would get better and better, did he? No, he said they would get "worse AND WORSE!" Corrupt spiritual leaders produce even MORE corrupt leaders as well as followers. Didn’t our Lord Prophecy of this very thing:
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte [convert], and when he is made, ye make him twofold MORE the child of hell [Gk: ‘Geenna’ the realm of the ‘dead,’ which Jesus here uses to represent the ‘spiritually dead’] than yourselves" (Matt. 23:15).
We shall now see that Jesus, Peter, and Paul certainly did tell the truth that things in the church would get WORSE AND MORE WORSE, or as some translations have it, "from bad to worse." Peter says there would be false teachers that would bring in DAMNABLE HERESIES. ARE THERE DAMNABLE HERESIES IN THE CHURCH OF GOD? Or did Peter LIE? Paul tells us that evil men and seducers (Gk: wicked men and swindlers) would go from BAD TO WORSE! Did Paul LIE? Notice how bad Jesus Christ said things would become:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, [a prophet is also a teacher and prophesying is teaching], and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive THE VERY ELECT" (Matt. 24:24).
Read it all here;
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
cjwood:
i will say it again, "good to have you back among us joe!"
thank you for this very important message you have presented.
claudia
myms:
So Jesus was reminding His disciples to take their eyes off their physical needs - He had just shown how He could meet those needs (abundantly, over and above, with supplies left over); but rather to be much more concerned with the hypocrisy and invisible, pervasive doctrines of the Pharisees. I need to be reminded of this so often, I so quickly become concerned about my physical needs (or wants) and lose sight of the daily reality of the spiritual battle I'm in. Thanks all.
hillsbororiver:
Hi Claudia,
You are very kind Sister, thank you.
I was trying to bring to light that often (if not always) the parables Jesus spoke (and His miracles can be "parables" as well) did not actually mean what we might interpret them to mean in and of our own understanding. Ray advises us to match scripture with scripture, spiritual with spiritual and seek multiple (scriptural) witnesses. He eloquently writes about this in the "12 Truths" paper;
Here is a portion of that paper;
TRUTH NUMBER 9
[A] "Knowing this first, that no prophecy [inspired writing or speaking] of the Scripture is of any private [Gk: ‘its OWN’] interpretation" (II Pet. 1:20).
"To understand a proverb, AND THE INTERPRETATION [or ‘puzzle’—the proverb itself is not also the interpretation]…" (Prov. 1:6).
[C] "Are you able to make known unto me THE DREAM which I have seen, AND THE INTERPRETATION thereof [the dream does not interpret itself]?" (Dan. 2:26).
"Own" is a little closer to the Greek in this verse than is the word "private." A few examples of how the Greek word, idios, is used in other Scriptures will show this more clearly. In a few cases it should be translated "private," as in, "…the disciples came unto Him privately" (Matt. 24:3). But more than 70 times it is translated "own" as in:
Matt. 9:1 "…and came into his own city [Gk: idios—not ‘private’ city]."
John 4:44 "…has honor in his own country [Gk: idios—not "private’ country]."
I Pet. 3:5 "…unto their own husbands [Gk: idios—not their ‘private’ husbands]."
Why is no Scripture its OWN interpretation, we might ask? To protect the integrity of the Scriptures, for one thing. ALL twelve of these spiritual principles are to be used together in explaining the Scriptures. If every Scripture or even any Scripture can be its "own interpretation," then we wouldn’t need the other eleven principles. How can a Scripture be its own interpretation when we are told to "compare or MATCH spiritual with spiritual?" One standing alone cannot at the same time be a match to something else. Why then the need for "TWO witnesses" if each Scripture fully interprets itself? No, every one of the principles that I am presenting is of paramount importance.
In our last example on the judgments by fire (I Cor. 3 and Rev. 20), it was absolutely necessary to have not only two witnesses, but to match one spiritual teaching with another spiritual teaching in order to arrive at the truth.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
Peace,
Joe
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