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Author Topic: Cock crows  (Read 8654 times)

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booker

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Cock crows
« on: September 24, 2010, 01:02:41 PM »

I have another verse i don't get.

Did Jesus say before the cock crow or before the cock crows twice?

Before the cock crow

Matthew 26:34
    Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Luke 22:34
    And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

John 13:38
    Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Before the cock crows twice

Mark 14:30
    And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

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Deborah-Leigh

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Cock crows
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2010, 01:18:44 PM »

oops....I've seen this before booker. I mean the "pattern" of comparing the various Gospels and seductive leading to assumptions, false beliefs and speculations that are not founded in the Word of God.

I lost a dear brother over this as he went after the intriguing and seductive false teachings.

Yes you can find many differences in the accounts between Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. These, for me, prove nothing. They show only literal comparisons and actually the Word of God is Spirit and Truth. If you are looking for literal patterns and contrasts, you'll find many. Seek first the Kingdom of God and such seeking is not in the direction of finding fault, differences or seeming contradictions in the Word of God.

Stick rather to studying the Truth of which there is plenty to find in the published materials available to you on this site. :)...and let's talk about that rather! :)

Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2010, 01:21:44 PM »

I have another verse i don't get.

Did Jesus say before the cock crow or before the cock crows twice?

Before the cock crow

Matthew 26:34
    Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Luke 22:34
    And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

John 13:38
    Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Before the cock crows twice

Mark 14:30
    And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.



Mark 14:30 is considered a spurious passage (FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html), as far as the use of the word 'twice'.
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Marky Mark

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2010, 03:20:27 PM »

There is no contradiction to speak of in the verses mentioned. Since Peter denied what he was told he would deny, before the cock crowed once, he also did it before the cock crowed twice. Although as Marques has pointed out that the word twice in Mark 14;30 is a spurious passage,{and even if it weren't}that still does not take any Truth away from what The Lord told Peter would occur,that which would have been,Peters denial.Which of course did happen, just as Jesus said it would.


Peace...Mark

Oh,and also this interesting bit of info.

Easton's Bible Dictionary
In our Lord's time the Jews had adopted the Greek and Roman division of the night into four watches, each consisting of three hours, the first beginning at six o'clock in the evening (Luke 12:38; Matthew 14:25; Mark 6:48). But the ancient division, known as the first and second cock-crowing, was still retained. The cock usually crows several times soon after midnight (this is the first crowing), and again at the dawn of day (and this is the second crowing). Mark mentions (14:30) the two cock-crowings. Matthew (26:34) alludes to that only which was emphatically the cock-crowing, viz, the second.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 03:30:20 PM by Marky Mark »
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Joel

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2010, 01:28:53 AM »

Hi booker
We have more than one wittiness that Jesus spoke words to Peter that came to pass before the next dawn.
And the cock crowing is what brought the words Jesus said, back to Peter's memory and caused him to weep bitterly.
I wonder how many times the sound of a crock crowing, before Peter's death brought that night back once again in his mind?

Joel
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booker

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2010, 08:36:32 AM »

Seek first the Kingdom of God and such seeking is not in the direction of finding fault, differences or seeming contradictions in the Word of God.

I think I'm verging on apostasy.It all started with the spurious passages research which led to contradictions(goto youtube and type "Bible contradictions quiz show"),validity(historically,etc.),i mean i don't know if i can trust the Bible anymore.And I've checked out the Apologetics materiel like lee strobel,kent hovind.But their evidence are not convincing.I still believe in the existence of God though,but maybe not as what the Bible portrays him to be.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 09:02:34 AM by booker »
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mharrell08

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2010, 11:23:35 AM »

I think I'm verging on apostasy.


I don't know if you'll find the cure for that on this forum, or any other for that matter. The membership here is one based on fellowship in the Truth, not attempting to find it.

Take some time to read your bible, use the 12 Truths paper to help in understanding, and then see where you're at. Everyone must put in time to study in order to gain solid understanding.
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Kat

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2010, 04:13:06 PM »


Hi Booker,

So what are you expecting when you are seeking spiritual understanding from the world?

Mark 4:10  But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable.
v. 11  And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
v. 12  so that
       "Seeing they may see and not perceive,
       And hearing they may hear and not understand;
       Lest they should turn,
       And their sins be forgiven them."

When you listen to the world's explanation of things, you are going to get confused. and even if you explain the truth to them carefully, they can not accept it, because they are blind to the Spirit of truth.

John 14:17  the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

So think about where you are spending your time studying, the more you go to the world the more confused you will be.

mercy, peac and love
Kat

« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 06:01:19 PM by Kat »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2010, 05:31:09 PM »

booker

Ray has said that over ninety percent of the email questions he receives are formulated from the erroneous assumption that the Scriptures contradict. Why is that over 90% of people who write to Ray, assert this false belief? Because God has given them, obscurity in their hearts and the experience of blindness that they should think that they know, but don’t and that they believe that they understand and they are far from it. At least you are feeling the prompting that you are in the wrong understanding regarding the Word of God, and heading into apostasy. That’s a very healthy sign that God is working in your  heart, showing you right from wrong and good from evil.  :)

 The Word of God is mis-translated by false teachers and if you want to really see and understand the Truth, you do need to study the correct expounding of the Word of God that is transcribed from Rays Bible Studies and Conferences not to mention the thousands of pages of insights and wisdom that is expressed in the variety of subjects available for your interest and study. You’re not alone booker. I guess it is something you have to experience, endure and suffer before our Lord gives you His Spirit which is what everyone of us requires in order to understand. No amount of study can get you to understand either. Just look at the string of qualifications that are heralded by the leaders in Babylon with years of study behind their names! Ever learning and never coming to the Truth.

Pray for Wisdom…beg, ask, plead and understand that without the Spirit of God, you’ll not know anything true, liberating and of great value as we here have acquired not through any intelligence or human wisdom but only through the gift of His Spirit we share, treasure and depend upon. Even the act of asking God for anything, requires first that God give you the desire. If it is the Plan of God to put you through the despair and darkness of not knowing His Spirit or understanding His Word, then He shall do that and it will be for the best for your personal education in experience of the dark before the Truth is made manifest to you.

A Catholic Priest once told me I was spiritually squint and that as long as God did not heal me, I would remain as such. He got that right, but failed to give me any encouragement. I hope I haven’t done the same to you. You are on the right path with God stirring in your soul to know apostasy, which few ever come to understand. Kat, Marques, Mark and Joel have provided you much to contemplate and consider in wise council, edification and encouragement.

Arc
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grapehound

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 06:41:52 PM »

Hi Booker,

I've been following this thread with much interest.
I recognise, as I'm sure all other replies do, a common stumbling when first coming to this Forum.
I hung around this site for years and it tore me to pieces, not; but it felt like it did.

When TRUTH is being birthed in you, it's often very painful and confusing.
As you grow, (and you will, whether you like it or not) you will experience these ' brick walls' in your life as part of a natural process. Sometimes you'll feel like you're losing your mind, at other times, you'll break through with laughter and tears.

Have you noticed how often these threads go off topic?
I believe there's a reason.

God is aware of every thought you think. He knows exactly.
You're following a process.

It might not seem obvious now, but watch for it. 
The topic starts off as a serious question about a point of scripture or an explanation of Ray's teaching.  Then little by little, the layers peel back and underlying reason's come through. Your fellow "Prisoners in Christ" are urged by His counsel to gather around and attend you.

Then pop! the real reason for the post seems to emerge out of the blue.
Interestingly, the original question you posed was around the denying of Christ.
After a few excellent responses, the bubble bursts and we find you're on the edge of apostasy.
Do you see the connection?

Kat was spot on with the advice of not looking to the world.
Maybe at this moment you feel you wanna jump ship; and that's OK. But you'll be back; I know.
For once you have tasted the TRUTH nothing else will quench your thirst.
Your spirit has recognised something here.  None of us are here by choice. It's all His will.
And He is 'The Hound of Heaven.'

You can't outpace Him and there is absolutely nowhere to hide; from His love.
You don't know if you can trust His word?
Don't you think He is able to brood over His own TRUTH and protect it from the ravages of man?
That's why He appoints men like Ray.
Imagine the task that God gave Ray when he first began.
Stop feeling sorry for yourself and settle in bro.
It's a jungle out there!

Looking to the world for truth?
The TRUTH is already at your fingertips.


Much love and peace in Jesus.

Grape x
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booker

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2010, 10:28:09 PM »

I don't know if I'm violating forum rules.This whole talk about spirit and stuff it's pretty much all about faith.And all that we know about God is just based on a book.Without much extra-biblical sources to back it's claims.Scholars(both secular and religious)  admit that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts but rather anonymous compositions. All i know is that God is better than a book.

The contradictions are not just between the gospels only.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion

1 Corinthians 1:27
God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

God curse the earth?

Genesis 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake.

Malachi 4:6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Tempts?

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)

Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)


     If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
     - John 5:31
     I am one that bear witness of myself...
     - John 8:18


      I and my father are one.
     - John 10:30
  ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
     - John 14:28

There's just thousands of these contradictions.And God is saying he is not the author of confusion?
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Kat

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2010, 12:19:38 AM »


Booker, I do not think you are comprehending what is being said here. Surely faith is big factor for all of us, it is a gift from God and it gives us the belief in the Scriptures we need. The "Spirit and stuff" is what teaches us and gives us the meaning behind what is being said and without the Holy Spirit helping us we are like the world and blind to the meaning in the Scripture. Every time you go to the world to feed on what they have to say, you are getting further from the truth.

So these contradictions that you have listed are only contradictions because there is not a proper understanding of many (if not all) Scripture. You have to know what the one is talking about in order to connect it to the others. These Scriputure do not contradict and Ray has spoken on many of them that you mention. But it would be useless to try and explain them to you, because you are convinced that the Bible is just a book.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2196.0.html -----

The faith is not for everyone. The person who is waiting for scientific proof that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, will be waiting till Kingdom come--however, not too much longer after that.  I receive hundreds of emails from people who want me to prove to them that every word of the Bible is inspired by the Creator of the Universe, and then they want me to show them how to be healthy, happy and wealthy.  Sorry, can't do it.

Read the material on our site. Read ALL of it. Maybe some of it will "rub off" on you.  I personally have my faith strengthened by reading Paul's epistles. You see, I know in my heart of hearts that Paul is not a phony, a liar, a charlatan.  Paul was one intelligent dude, and he emphatically believed the Scriptures. He believed Jesus. He performed miracles. He raised the dead.  Most will say, "But I don't believe it."  I know they don't. That's why I said "The faith is not for everyone."

One way to really come to believe in the Scriptures is not to speculate, and read the higher criticism of others aout them, but by LIVING THEM. When you live them, you believe them, and you start to understand them. Try it.

God be with you,

Ray

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2010, 12:21:29 AM »

As has already been said, there isn't a single contradiction in the verses you've mentioned.  Nor is there a contradiction in the thousands of places you believe there are.  I'll admit readily that there are many apparent contradictions to the casual reader--especially when he or she is looking for them.  Some can be resolved with something approaching study.  The rest can be 'solved' with a spiritual understanding of scripture.  In fact, it's the spirit led resolution of carnal contradictions that gives us the most beautiful truths in the scripture.  For evidence, read the website.

I'll also freely admit that this knowledge is not in everyone.  Jesus didn't teach in parables, for example, so that the masses could understand.  He taught in parables so that the masses would NOT understand.  This is central to the Gospel of the Kingdom.  Many are called, few are chosen.  I'm not ashamed of the Gospel.  

I'm not sure what else we can tell you.  You've dismissed apologetics.  You seem to have little faith in necessity of the Spirit of God to understanding.  You hang on to a notion of God, but appear ready to get rid of scripture.  We have members who've gone through atheism, and agnosticism, but understand and believe the Truths of the bible.

We can't turn the forum into an attempt to carnally explain thousands of apparent contradictions.  Ray has done a lot of work in that area, but surely he hasn't tackled each and every one.  Like Jesus said, however, if you don't understand one parable, how are you going to understand them all?  Understand one, and you're on your way.    
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 12:37:17 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

booker

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2010, 03:01:02 AM »

Some can be resolved with something approaching study.
I've looked at the explanations of the contradictions.And they are no good,bad explanations.

The Council of Nicaea's(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea) purpose was the ensure that Jesus' appearance was Godlike and to remove all forms of mortality within him. Furthermore, it's primary purpose was also to bring together pagans and Christians in order to bring peace between the two large warring factions.All i know is that men decide what the Bible should contain.



Here is the link to the video i was talking about {outside teaching links not allowed}

« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 04:52:11 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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mmijares

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2010, 03:28:12 AM »

Hi Booker

Most "inconsistencies", "contradictions", DO NOT touch any delicate doctrine at all.  Take for example of your "cock crows".  It doesn't matter whether once, twice, thrice the cock crows before Peter denies our Lord, what matters is Peter denied the Lord and it made him weep bitterly.  THIS was the gist of the segment story of the Gospel.  The "disagreement" and "contradiction" are there but the facts of the story are substantially the same.
 
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judith collier

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2010, 03:40:19 AM »

Mmijares, liked that explanantion. A person can get really caught up in that trivia.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Cock crows
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2010, 04:26:37 AM »

I'm not going to be drawn into a debate.  You've already heard what you need to do.  The most valuable thing posted was an email reply from Ray to somebody with the same doubts and 'concerns' about Scripture.  I'll repost it here again.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2196.0.html -----

The faith is not for everyone. The person who is waiting for scientific proof that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, will be waiting till Kingdom come--however, not too much longer after that.  I receive hundreds of emails from people who want me to prove to them that every word of the Bible is inspired by the Creator of the Universe, and then they want me to show them how to be healthy, happy and wealthy.  Sorry, can't do it.

Read the material on our site. Read ALL of it. Maybe some of it will "rub off" on you.  I personally have my faith strengthened by reading Paul's epistles. You see, I know in my heart of hearts that Paul is not a phony, a liar, a charlatan.  Paul was one intelligent dude, and he emphatically believed the Scriptures. He believed Jesus. He performed miracles. He raised the dead.  Most will say, "But I don't believe it."  I know they don't. That's why I said "The faith is not for everyone."

One way to really come to believe in the Scriptures is not to speculate, and read the higher criticism of others aout them, but by LIVING THEM. When you live them, you believe them, and you start to understand them. Try it.

God be with you,

Ray


And from the rules/guidelines.

This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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