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Author Topic: Uzziah's Leprosy  (Read 13098 times)

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daywalker

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Uzziah's Leprosy
« on: September 28, 2010, 06:21:31 PM »


So, I'm reading II Chronicles just now, and I came across this verse...

II Chronicles 26:19 Uzziah, who had an incense censer in his hand, became angry. While he was ranting and raving at the priests, a skin disease appeared on his forehead right there in front of the priests in the LORD's temple near the incense altar.

...and I wondered, hmmm, how long does it generally take for a skin disease to appear from the time one is infected? Using, esword, I saw that the Hebrew word is "tsraath" which means "leprosy" [as it appears in the KJV]. I then went online and found this bit of information on leprosy:

Causes

Leprosy is caused by the organism Mycobacteriumleprae. It is not very contagious (difficult to transmit) and has a long incubation period (time before symptoms appear), which makes it difficult to determine where or when the disease was contracted. Children are more susceptible than adults to contracting the disease.

https://health.google.com/health/ref/Leprosy



Whoa! This was quite revealing to me!

God stuck Uzziah with leprosy for his disobedience, but leprosy takes a while to ‘appear’. So, this would mean the he had leprosy days, perhaps weeks  ???, before he went into the Temple illegally? It’s as if God already knew that King Uzziah would disobey him and God already decided that He would punish him with leprosy; and therefore God caused this disease to begin to infect Uzziah at just the right time so that when he did disobey God’s Commandment, and entered into the Temple where only Levite priests were allowed, and the priests stood before him there, THEN THE DISEASE APPEARED AS IF HE'D JUST THEN BEEN STUCK WITH IT!

[that is of course assuming that the above diagnosis of leprosy is accurate]  :D ;) ;D


Thoughts?

Daywalker  8)

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Craig

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2010, 06:45:33 PM »

I think if God wanted to instantly give someone leprosy, it would not be too big of a problem.

Craig
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daywalker

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2010, 08:34:40 PM »

I think if God wanted to instantly give someone leprosy, it would not be too big of a problem.

Craig


I don't doubt that at all... just thinking maybe that's not what He did. [though, I'm not hanging my hat on that idea either, just something that sparked my interest while paying attention to the Words  ;) :D]


ADD: To me it's more evidence against free will; since God already knows what sins we will do, He already knows how He will judge us for them
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 08:37:16 PM by daywalker »
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Joel

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2010, 09:34:03 PM »

I agree Craig,
The second sign God gave to Moses, was to put his hand in his bosom and taking it out white with leprosy. And putting it in the second time and back out normal.
Exodus, 4:6-7

Joel
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daywalker

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 04:06:36 AM »

I agree Craig,
The second sign God gave to Moses, was to put his hand in his bosom and taking it out white with leprosy. And putting it in the second time and back out normal.
Exodus, 4:6-7

Joel

AGAIN... I never said God can't strike someone with leprosy in an instant.. Gosh, do we really have to establish this? Of course, He COULD HAVE... He could have created the entire universe in six 24-hour periods if He wanted to.... that doesn't mean that's what He did... but of course, He COULD HAVE... [About Exodus 4, In my opinion, it was a vision, not a literal event. Kinda like the Mount of Transfiguration in Matt 17:1-9.]

I'm sorry if this comes off rude, but do we really need to discuss whether or not God Almighty "can" do something? I think we ALL here know He can do anything--that's axiomatic with the title "GOD". I guess I gotta be more careful what I share with the forum; didn't think this idea was gonna be so offensive to some people.


Daywalker  8)
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darren

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 04:24:08 AM »

No offense here daywalker. Something you read spark your interest and you shared. Thanks. Don't worry about the rest.

Darren
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grapehound

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 06:01:49 AM »

Well spoken Darren, blessed are the peacemakers.
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Joel

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2010, 07:21:42 AM »

I'm not offended.  8)

Joel
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2010, 07:36:01 AM »

Knowing what we know about the incubation period, it seems to me the Uzziah was given to a temperament of rage, petulance and anger that manifested right on time in accord to the Plan and Sovereignty of God where it appeared ~  exactly as written for our admonition. This is not a speculation on God's Power. Indeed we are here precisely because we rely on the fact that we are like-minded in our beliefs we have been given to hold with all privilege and gratitude.

Also, just observing what Craig presented, also gave me motive to think about where the comment Craig made, could have possibly come from. Craig is no novice here and so this made me think back to times here in the Forum where we were all contributing to interpreting the Scriptures according to our opinions. One particular thread took us into comparing what glass is made of and even though it was very entertaining and exciting to do the study and investigation into the anatomy of sand and glass, it was not edifying at all. In fact we were all caught up in speaking ABOVE what is written in the Word of God. I was right in there too! :( It changed no one, except for the worse, and gave no grounds for repentance. It just made us all think we were very smart and that we all knew more and better than others. I don't recall that Craig gave any comment to that thread! :)  :D

So returning to my motivation to see where Craig was coming from, and also recalling the Thread on sand and glass etc. I realized that we are jumping right over and past one of the very important principles in coming to understand God and His Word. That is, that no Scripture is of any private interpretation! Hah...there's a REASON for that!...where do opinions end? :( >:(....for if we are to go down the road of opinions, we are most likely to get into a tangle and worse still, go off thinking we are quite smart and above others less mature! :D :) Like in knowing more, and puffing each other up, we actually helped each other to understand less about our God! Like ever learning and never coming to the Truth! :(

You know Christopher, you are very astute and you have a sharp handle on the Truth as shows over and over again through your posts here. I think Craig was giving you a very valuable insight that you took in a fashion that was not meant to offend but to increase your sharpness and insight. As a sister who is really happy you are here, I have to say, I have been given much broader margin for error and emotions because I am a woman. For that I am grateful and value the mutual understanding of the Truth we all share here that has been a saftey net for my own posts that reflect my feelings and recognition of our God that may be mis-understood and leave me vulnerable. You on the other hand have a far higher accountability dear brother. I think you will make all your sisters sad if you censor or feel threatened here in the Forum when a big brother gives you an opportunity to hone your skills in the Spirit. I agree there is much comfort to be drawn from knowing that we are united in knowing and reverentially fearing our God. God's not finished with you dear brother by a long shot so don't buckle or fold now. We all have to exercise restraint in what we bring into this Forum and that's not new and neither should it be cause for offence! There are far bigger issues at stake.The battle is not over, the Beast is not dead and God IS  l-o-n-g suffering…..even the wicked for the day of evil. Pro 16 : 4

If our interactions don't continue to exhort us to continued repentance, then our efforts here are as Jezzie....I don't want to be a Jezebel, but a sister, exhorting you to compare spiritual with spiritual not spiritual with physical as is the way of the Babylonian. :) that Craig's comment will have stung and  purged off you ~ to your gain and increase in better understanding and accomplishment that only God gives to your applying the Truth of understanding the Word of God, compares spiritual with spiritual and by your own direct experience this is given to you to own, for your and God willing, others advantage. You should thank God that Craig spoke to you! :)..not to bring offence or bitterness, but blessing, elevation, insight and experience of a profound Truth relevant to the application of understanding God's Word, dear brother!

That point you make, “comparing spiritual with spiritual”, that you say is your opinion!... :D...oops...it is not! It is a principle of understanding God's Word  :) is actually an observation comparing Ex 4 with Mat 17, and that to continue,” comparing spiritual with spiritual”, don’t you think this can also be taken to apply also with Rev 1:1  A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John.....pretty beautiful comprehensive insight into the way and purposes of our Sovereign God wouldn't you say dear brother?

What a loss had you not shared!

Oh, and Craig, us sisters are” allowed”, as in the only time that word is used in the Scriptures! …. to molly coddle… :D :) .Keep on keeping on Daywalker! 8) Craig only blessed you brother.  8)  God did, through Criag! 8) :)

I am not necessarily right about this ~ but hey ~ for what it's worth to you... God also says :

Rom 1:20  For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Arc
 

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 08:41:58 AM by Arcturus »
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daywalker

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2010, 01:32:46 PM »


Darren, thank you for your peaceful advice.

Joel, I'm glad you weren't offended. I wasn't intending to 'start a fire'; guess I just needed to get that off my chest. Thank you for understanding.  :D

Arc, I totally get where you're coming from. Our opinions, for sure, can lead us off track. That's why I said in my reply to Craig that I wasn't going to "hang my hat on that idea" which I proposed; it was just something that spurred my interest. I also concur with you regarding knowledge and how it can puff us up, and make us act superior to others. The last thing I want is to be that person who thinks they know it all, and I can assure you that wasn't my intention when I started this post. I'm no teacher, and neither do I want to be. That's far too much pressure! I'm happily content calling myself a 'student'.  ;D


Daywalker  8)
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Marky Mark

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2010, 01:46:13 PM »

Quote
[About Exodus 4, In my opinion, it was a vision, not a literal event. Kinda like the Mount of Transfiguration in Matt 17:1-9.]

Hi Christopher.

  Was wondering why you think that it was a vision and not literal.In Matt 17 Jesus tells them that it was a vision,but in Exodus there is no mention of a vision or a witness to it being a vision. Just curious.


Peace...Mark

 
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daywalker

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2010, 05:07:19 PM »

Quote
[About Exodus 4, In my opinion, it was a vision, not a literal event. Kinda like the Mount of Transfiguration in Matt 17:1-9.]

Hi Christopher.

  Was wondering why you think that it was a vision and not literal.In Matt 17 Jesus tells them that it was a vision,but in Exodus there is no mention of a vision or a witness to it being a vision. Just curious.


Peace...Mark

 


Hey Mark,

Sure, I'll share with you my thinking... First, Matthew 17:

1 And after six days Jesus is taking aside Peter and James and John, his brother, and is bringing them up into a high mountain, privately,
2 and was transformed in front of them. And His face shines as the sun, yet His garments became white as the light.
3 And lo! Moses and Elijah were seen by them, conferring with Him.
4 Now, answering, Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is ideal for us to be here! If Thou art willing, I shall be making three tabernacles here, for Thee one, and for Moses one, and for Elijah one."
5 While he is still speaking, lo! a luminous cloud overshadows them, and lo! a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, the Beloved, in Whom I delight. Hear Him!"
6 And, hearing it, the disciples fall on their faces and were tremendously afraid.
7 And Jesus approached and, touching them, said, "Be roused, and fear not!"
8 Now, lifting up their eyes, they perceived no one except Jesus Himself only.


COMMENT: Before continuing to the next verse, is there anything in the above section that would indicate that this was a vision and not a literal event? It doesn't seem like a vision. I mean, here's Jesus, Peter, James and John descending up into a mountain, and then *bam* all these 'strange' events start happening. It's not like they were all sleeping sound and had a 'dream', they 'literally' walked right into this, while wide awake. So, how then, do we know that this was a 'vision' and not an actual 'literal' event? Well, of course, because Jesus tells us:

9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the VISION till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

COMMENT: What if Jesus didn't tell the disciples that this was a vision? Would they have known? It seemed to happen just as natural as if Moses and Elijah were up there in the mountain the whole time waiting for them to come up to meet them. Personally, I'm convinced that if Jesus hadn't told them that this was a 'vision' that they wouldn't have thought it was--at least not at that time--perhaps later when they received the Spirit they would have come to understand this... But Jesus clears this up for them right away by telling them it was a vision.

Next Question: Do the Scriptures need to tell us when something that happens is 'literal' or if it's a 'vision' for us to know? Can we not discern by the things we know and learn from other parts of the Scripture?

In John 1:18 we are told that "No one has ever seen God". Some would say 'well this is referring to The Father'. But it doesn't say "No one has ever seen God the Father" it just says no one has ever seen "God". Ray explains in his teachings that Jesus is Jehovah--the God of the Old Testament. So, when Moses saw God in Exodus 4, he saw Jehovah [Jesus]. But at this time Jesus was not in human form, but in the form of the Almighty Creator--God. But "no one has ever seen God"? To me, this would mean that Moses didn't 'literally' see God, but rather he experienced a vision--which is completely possible as evidenced by Matt 17 there's no reason why Moses couldn't have experienced a vision right there while he was wide awake.


Daywalker  8)


PS: ...But again, this is my thinking, I may be wrong and I accept that. I hope nobody takes this as me teaching, I was just answering Mark's request.
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Marky Mark

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2010, 05:51:42 PM »

Hi Chris,I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

So then,if the signs that were given to Moses were a vision and not literal,then would Moses showing the Egyptians these signs [miracles] be not not literal, but rather visions,and not true miracles?  I may be wrong here but it seems to me that the Lord wanted the Egyptians to see His power[Works] through Moses.

Exo 4:8  Then the LORD said, "If they won't believe you or pay attention to the first miraculous sign, they may believe the second.
Exo 4:9  But if they won't believe these two miraculous signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile River and pour it on the ground. The water you take from the Nile will turn into blood on the ground."



Peace...Mark
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2010, 06:58:31 PM »


You provide sound minded stabilty in that question to daywalker, Mark. 8) Not to detract...a vision can also be a miracle don't you think as in the insights given to John of Jesus Christ and also,..... everything can be a miracle... everything is a miracle! :)

Okay...Christopher... I don't want to upset the balance here. Mark has asked a very important question. :)

I'll step aside now....

Arc
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daywalker

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2010, 08:43:55 PM »

Hi Chris,I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

So then,if the signs that were given to Moses were a vision and not literal,then would Moses showing the Egyptians these signs [miracles] be not not literal, but rather visions,and not true miracles?  I may be wrong here but it seems to me that the Lord wanted the Egyptians to see His power[Works] through Moses.

Exo 4:8  Then the LORD said, "If they won't believe you or pay attention to the first miraculous sign, they may believe the second.
Exo 4:9  But if they won't believe these two miraculous signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile River and pour it on the ground. The water you take from the Nile will turn into blood on the ground."



Peace...Mark


Hey Mark,

First off, I need to clear up something, it appears I confused two separate events in my last post...  :( :o

Where I said,

"In John 1:18 we are told that "No one has ever seen God". Some would say 'well this is referring to The Father'. But it doesn't say "No one has ever seen God the Father" it just says no one has ever seen "God". Ray explains in his teachings that Jesus is Jehovah--the God of the Old Testament. So, when Moses saw God in Exodus 4, he saw Jehovah [Jesus]. But at this time Jesus was not in human form, but in the form of the Almighty Creator--God. But "no one has ever seen God"? To me, this would mean that Moses didn't 'literally' see God, but rather he experienced a vision--which is completely possible as evidenced by Matt 17 there's no reason why Moses couldn't have experienced a vision right there while he was wide awake."

I was thinking of when God 'appeared' to Moses on Sinai... I believe that when Moses saw God's "backside" [Exodus 33] that this was a vision as in when the disciples saw Christ and the prophets... [I don't know how the heck I screwed that up! haha, LOL...]


...Anyway, about the miracles, I don't see how them being visions would make them "not true miracles"? I definitely believe that when Christ was shown in His true glorious form, that that was a miracle, even though it was a vision. That Peter could 'know' who Moses and Elijah were, though they had died hundreds of years before he was born--that's a miracle, even though it was a vision.

miracle - an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God

There's no apparent reason to me that God can't cause a multitude of people to see a vision; and besides, what else would you call a Divine vision other than a miracle? Jesus being born from a virgin mother was a miracle [which obviously was not a vision]. Yet is it not also true that the vision of the Angel who came to Mary and Joseph was a miracle--an event that cannot be explained by laws of nature?
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Akira329

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2010, 09:33:47 PM »

Hey Chris

Why is it important that Exodus 4 be a vision instead of a literal event??
Are we forgetting how this started?

Exo 3:2  And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3  And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.


How do you perceive this to be a vision instead of an literal event?
I don't think there is a problem with calling a vision a miracle.
The problem is determining a vision from a literal event? How do you know which is which when not stated?
Do we all agree that visions are not literal?

Antaiwan
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markn902

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2010, 09:44:32 PM »


everything can be a miracle... everything is a miracle! :)

My three year old son picking up his toys when he is done would be a miracle!  :D

thats off topic but I thought this thread could use a little humor  ::)
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daywalker

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2010, 10:59:45 PM »

Hey Chris

Why is it important that Exodus 4 be a vision instead of a literal event??
Are we forgetting how this started?

Exo 3:2  And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3  And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.


How do you perceive this to be a vision instead of an literal event?
I don't think there is a problem with calling a vision a miracle.
The problem is determining a vision from a literal event? How do you know which is which when not stated?
Do we all agree that visions are not literal?

Antaiwan


What's up Antaiwan,

It's not really "that important" whether it was a vision or literal event. Mark asked me why I thought they were visions, and I explained why I thought that. [of course, I screwed up my first explanation, but hopefully redeemed myself in the second LOL]

In the Scripture that you presented, the segment "the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed" seems IMO to be good evidence that Moses was seeing a vision. But, maybe it was a literal fire which miraculously didn't burn the bush? I don't doubt for one moment that God could've done that. I'm starting to believe it was a vision, but I'm not asking you or anyone to agree with me, nor would I be offended if you didn't agree. Besides the way I see it, a Divine vision is just as 'real' as any literal [physical] event--if not more real, seeing that spiritual is more real than physical. In my introduction, two years ago [this month!  :D just noticed, haha] i talk about a strange event that happened my life:

When I was 17, after church one Sunday, I was over at my buddy, Eric's house, and was having some "bible chat" with him, his dad, and his stepmother. Suddenly, his stepmother went into this crazy "trance" or something, (eyes rolled up, as if she was possessed, trust me I wish I was joking!!) and said "the harvest is many, but the workers are so few", then she looked at me and said, "GOD has something in store for you, I don't know what, but it is big. Keep up what you're doing, and don't lose the faith." The strangest part is that after she spoke those words, as she "came back to normal", I felt as though a wind (or Spirit??) had gone right THROUGH ME, from from front to back as if it came FROM HER... And both of us were overwhelming and short-breathed. I would say that the looks on Eric and his dad's faces were priceless, but I'm sure that mine and his stepmother's topped them... All in all, something that you NEVER forget. (I got chills just "typing" about it!)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8168.0.html

I wonder now if this, too, was a vision that we all experienced that day ??? Would it make it any less 'real' if it was a vision? I can assure you as a personal witness to these events, it was real. *still get goosebumps thinking about it*


...But at the end of the day, I was just sharing my thoughts on the subject. Hope this helped you understand where I was coming from.  :)

Daywalker  8)
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daywalker

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2010, 12:03:05 AM »


everything can be a miracle... everything is a miracle! :)

My three year old son picking up his toys when he is done would be a miracle!  :D

thats off topic but I thought this thread could use a little humor  ::)


As if this were some super-ultra-serious thread or something? we're just chatting far as I can tell...   :)


.....................

I'll tell you all another interesting story just popped in my head while driving home from work in a crazy thunder-lightning storm here in So Cali...


Years ago, my sister woke up suddenly in the middle of the night to find our Grandpa standing over the crib of my baby niece. Grandpa looked over at my sister and smiled... Problem is, he'd been dead for nearly 5 years at the time...  ??? Now, my sister isn't the type of person to go making up stories. Add to that, the fact that she can't tell this one without every hair on her arms standing up; so I'm fully convinced this happened...

Several months back my sister and I were having a chat about ghosts vs. what the bible says about death and dead people, etc. and of course, she asked me about that night she saw Grandpa. She asked me how I would explain it. I told her I believed it was a 'vision' from God sent to comfort her [which is precisely the feeling she says she got soon as the shock of 'seeing a ghost' left her].

...I mean, how else would you explain our dead grandpa standing in my sister's bedroom, other than it being a vision?  ;)


Anyway, have a good one everyone; I'm calling it quits for the night  :)

Daywalker  8)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Uzziah's Leprosy
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2010, 05:04:13 AM »


I don't think there is a problem with calling a vision a miracle.

Do we all agree that visions are not literal?

Antaiwan

Visions are not physical yet they can be relative! :D :)

Discerning the difference between what is absolute and what is relative ~ that’s not a problem, it’s impossible without the Spirit of God!

Arc
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