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[GaryK]

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.



Can anyone point me to where Ray has explained these verses in more detail?   Or a post where it’s been discussed at greater length and referencing Ray's ideas on the matter?     My advanced search brought nothing.

Thanks,
gk

[mharrell08]

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.



Can anyone point me to where Ray has explained these verses in more detail?   Or a post where it’s been discussed at greater length and referencing Ray's ideas on the matter?     My advanced search brought nothing.

Thanks,
gk

No, Ray has not gone into very much detail with the symbolism of the Two Witnesses. Here are two small excerpts from the LOF series. If he ever feels well enough to continue the LOF series, perhaps he may go into more detail then. No idea if or when that will ever happen.


Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 1 (http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html):

Chapter 11, Are God’s two witnesses that prophesy, literally two olive trees and two candlesticks? But if we study Zechariah 4 we can determine what is meant by "two witnesses."


Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 12 (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html):

(We will explain the symbols of "the beast," "his image," "his mark," "the number of his name," "the man of sin," "the two witnesses," "the second death," "the antichrist," etc., in upcoming installments of this series).


Hope that helps,

Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi gk

Rev 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ has to happen within us in its entirety. What kingdom can be complete if it is missing a part of itself?

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever. (ASV)

Yet nothing of the above two Scriptures can be approached, desired or fulfilled without the Spirit of God.

Php 2: 13  For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire.

God is Sovereign, in control of everything as expounded throughout all of Rays writings. Ray has also said that what symbolically happens in Revelations, has to happen spiritually within us.

As for details ~ Marques said it right.

Arc

[GaryK]

Thank you both.

gk

[Kat]

Hi Gary,

There is a lot of symbolism going on in that passage, here are Scriptures that might apply to the "two witness."

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
v. 4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zec 4:12  And a second time I said to him, "What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the oil is poured out?"
v. 13  He said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" I said, "No, my lord."
v. 14  Then he said, "These are the two anointed who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Mat 18:16  But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
Mat 18:19  "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
v. 20  For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

Mar 6:7  And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits.
 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Ref LOF Part 1

Chapter 11, Are God's two witnesses that prophecy, literally two olive trees and two candlesticks? but if we study Zechariah 4 we can determine what is meant by "two witnesses"

As I understand ~ Joshua and Zerubbabel prince of Judha...yet mindful that the symbolic meaning and application has a TODAY, internal spiritual significance.


Beautiful references Kat. 

Arc

[GaryK]

Thank you all for your responses.    I did study the Zechariah verses and also any referenced material from there foreward and onward, as well.

The part I'm attempting to make some 'spiritual' sense of is this verse:

Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

And as Arc referenced and as Ray has taught, all these things are spiritual and each of us will experience these....spiritually.   As for the 'two witnesses' for understanding scripture and prophecy, I've read Ray's words but I'm not making a spiritual connection to this:     

"And their dead bodies"...

in conjunction to:   

ZEC: v. 14  Then he said, "These are the two anointed who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Just not seing it.

How do we experience this?   What does it mean on a personal level?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi again gk

Your question regarding the two Scriptures you present asking us a) how we experience them and b) what it means to us, for me, is a most profound question requiring personal testimonies of the work of the Spirit of Christ in our lives.  

Your call that we ponder and give consideration to these questions in order that we may amplify our attention to our Lord  who has wrought all our works in us...Isa 26:12  LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

We are to know, understand and acknowledge our God. Those who don’t Jer 9:3  And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

As I relate the scriptures to my own experience, I can see that for me Babylon has fallen. The fall is within me not outside in the world. The dead bodies are those who are not literally dead but spiritually and they are those who continue the practice of dead burying their dead whilst building their white stone sepulchers full of dead men’s bones. They are the keepers of monumental traditions, heresies, false teachings, lies and hypocrisies that kill, blind, maim and destroy. The large jaws of such spiritual death have taken the lives of my world friends and family among whom once I sojourned in fellowship and mutual blindness in darkness. They are dead to me and I to them. Therein that separation out of Babylon, is the joining to our Lord in sharing His Baptism and Death, in my body of experience and personal relationships and changes that bring clarity to the differences in being part of a spritual like minded family and one that is family only by physical birth.

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service…..where also our Lord was sacrificed. This is spiritual not literal as you will know.  

Regarding the last Scripture :

Zec 4:14  Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The revelation of Jesus Christ in our lives, is about His Spirit being unveiled within us by thw Work of God and His Spirit without which we can not understand, acknowledge or know God.

Eph 4:15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, even Christ:
Eph 5:23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the Head of the church: and He is the Savior of the body.
1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the Head of Christ is God.

A man without his Head as Christ is of great dismay for any God fearing woman and even the worse experience for a woman who is lost.  
 
I personally believe there is a spiritual significance that may be compared between the following two scriptures.

Zec 4:14  Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Rev 22:17  The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.

The above reminds me of what Ray said in his conference concering those who wish to join us. Ray expouned the following Scripture :

Rom 14:1  I now pass to another subject. Receive as a friend a man whose faith is weak, but not for the purpose of deciding mere matters of opinion.
 
Christ Jesus is the pre-eminent anointed of God the Father. That is not an opinion ~    The Spirit is God the Father, Who with the Bride, I believe will be not without the Lord but shall stand by the Lord, Jesus Christ the Lord of the whole earth.

Blessings to you gk

Arc

[G. Driggs]

Christ Jesus is the pre-eminent anointed of God the Father. That is not an opinion ~   Smiley   The Spirit is God the Father, Who with the Bride, I believe will be not without the Lord but shall stand by the Lord, Jesus Christ the Lord of the whole earth.

You know what Arc? That does not make any sense at all. I think you know what I mean.

It has been remarked many times that "prophecy is dual." Actually, I believe that many prophecies are multi-layered.

What you said Arc is a perfect example of the above quote by Ray. The 'two witnesses' are so much more than two pieces of Scripture. Thank you so much Arc, I have wondered about the very question Gary asked for a long time.

As for the rest of your post dear sister, a witness and an answer for Gary's question.

Psa 79:1  A Psalm of Asaph. O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.
Psa 79:2  The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.
Psa 79:3  Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them.
Psa 79:4  We are become a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and derision to them that are round about us.
Psa 79:5  How long, LORD? wilt thou be angry for ever? shall thy jealousy burn like fire?
Psa 79:6  Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.
Psa 79:7  For they have devoured Jacob, and laid waste his dwelling place.
Psa 79:8  O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low.
Psa 79:9  Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
Psa 79:10  Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed.
Psa 79:11  Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die;
Psa 79:12  And render unto our neighbours sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord.
Psa 79:13  So we thy people and sheep of thy pasture will give thee thanks for ever: we will shew forth thy praise to all generations.

Thanks all!

G.Driggs

[grapehound]

Hi Gary,

I may be a bit off kilter here,(it has been known!), but I have been following this thread
and being an odd ball, I started seeing another kind of angle here.
I've always been fascinated by how His word is constructed.
It seems to me that God doesn't put anything together by chance and remembering Ray's teaching regarding the " multilayering of prophecy", I noticed this.

If there is any milage in this I'd be grateful if someone with a greater understanding than me,(which is most !) could expound on it. If I've totally missed the bus here, I apologise in advance.

Rev 11:6  " The power to shut Heaven..." seems to refer to Elijah, echoed in 1 Kings 17:1
               and Moses, " Power over waters, to turn them to blood." echoed in Exodus 7:19



 Elijah is mentioned before Moses, who preceded him.

I wondered why they are not mentioned in chronological order.
I also understand that God doesn't do anything by chance, so there must be a reason for this.

I love searching out the meaning of names.

The order of names in Rev 11: 6
Elijah = God of Jehovah
Moses = Drawn out or Rescued

So we have  “God of Jehovah + Rescued” = Yahushua , Y’shua = Jesus

Interestingly, for me anyway!, is that these two are seen by Peter and the sons of Zebedee in the transfiguration with Jesus. (Mark 9:4)

Also Malachi 4:5 “ I will send you Elijah ………….. Before the coming of the Great and Dreadful  day of the Lord.”

Any thoughts on this?

Grape

[Kat]

Hi John,

Yes you are right, Ray did cover the "two witnesses" in his Twelve Truths paper.

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ----------------

TRUTH NUMBER 6

[A.] "…that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16).

[B.] "…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).

[C.] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES…" (Rev. 11:3).

This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.
v
v
Jesus tells us in parable of two great witnesses:

"Then said He unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which brings forth out of his treasure, NEW AND OLD" (Matt. 13:52).

What "new and old" treasures do "scribes" preserve for us regarding the "kingdom of heaven?" Why the NEW Covenant Scriptures and the OLD Covenant Scriptures, of course. And both the Old (Deut. 17:6 & 19:15), and the New (II Cor. 13:1 & Matt. 18:16) command that we must have two witnesses to establish every Word of God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

George, John, Gary and Kathy ....if those inspirations you've posted,  don't tesitfy to what is "multi-layered prophesies" insights and encouragements that bring more clarity and encouragement....I don't know what does!

Arc

[GaryK]

George, John, Gary and Kathy ....if those inspirations you've posted,  don't tesitfy to what is "multi-layered prophesies" insights and encouragements that bring more clarity and encouragement....I don't know what does!

Arc

"The fall is within me not outside in the world."

"Therein that separation out of Babylon, is the joining to our Lord in sharing His Baptism and Death"

Arcturus, I could not have said it better.  All responses are soul stirring in thought and bring yet greater gravity to:


Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


The Lake of Fire - Part XIV,  The Beast Within   

THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!
 
But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).

when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],

FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).

Truly:  "We have seen the enemy and he is US."

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html

Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Thank you all for your wealthy responses.  There is much here to contemplate.

gk

[Deborah-Leigh]

I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],

Exerpt from your post gk!

Yes, I so appreciate that Ray identifies what our Lord is saying unto ME and unto YOU!...that is to US here in BT!

When I first saw your response and quotes from Ray, the words "Fear not" stood out off the page! That too is so beautiful to hear, recieve and integrate by the Spirit of our God who causes us to know Him.

Blessings brother
Arc

[aktikt]

Hi all,

I found a poetic verse in Isaiah that I believe is a spiritual match for Revelation 11:8.

Isa 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This verse in Isaiah appears to me to back up what Ray is saying about the two witnesses and the Sum of thy word being Truth.   The whole truth is the Truth.   If I understand Ray correctly, he was saying the two witnesses represent the Truth since no verse of scripture is its own interpretation. 

This is pretty amazing when you see that the street mentioned in Rev 11:8  is that of the great (according to the flesh) city of Jerusalem.  The Jerusalem which is in bondage with her children.  The earthly church as we all had a part of had truth lying in the street dead.  In Rev 11:9-10 they/we even rejoiced over the death of Truth and wouldn't let it be buried so we could exalt in it. Wow!

Josh

[grapehound]

Aktikt,
That's awesome insight. Thank you so much for that important post.
Awesome, just awesome.

Every Blessing,

Grape

[Deborah-Leigh]

And again to return to focus upon the Sovereigty of our God. God is causing it all.

Isa 28:13  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

...as you say Aktikt quote : The Jerusalem which is in bondage with her children. unquote....as in fallen backward, broken, snared and taken...

Blessings

Arc

[mharrell08]

FYI: Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 12 (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html):

(We will explain the symbols of "the beast," "his image," "his mark," "the number of his name," "the man of sin," "the two witnesses," "the second death," "the antichrist," etc., in upcoming installments of this series).


Let us wait until Ray covers more of the symbolism in the book of Revelation before we speculate. 'Lying in the street' is not the only metaphor used in the prophecy of the 2 witnesses.

I know the 'no teaching rule' can be frustrating at times. But it does us no good to speculate on one matter or another regarding scriptures. Let us wait and see if/when God will use Ray to open up more of the scriptures to us. If God is doing that for you now personally, great...but the forum is not the outlet for you to express that.


Hope you understand,

Marques