physical pain/emotional pain and judgement

[wonderment]

If God uses physical pain in the present life to judge us and for us to "learn righteousness" then how will most people come to God in the hereafter if they will be spiritually judged (in the lake of fire)? I'm sorry if this question is confusing but I'm basically asking if God can judge us without the physical suffering and he can do it with emotional suffering only then why does there have to be any physical pain? And if it does require physical pain for us to learn righteousness then how will the non-believers be judged in the lake of fire if spiritual fire can't physically damage a spiritual being? Hope this makes sense, let me know if I need to clarify things a little bit more...

[mharrell08]

If God uses physical pain in the present life to judge us and for us to "learn righteousness" then how will most people come to God in the hereafter if they will be spiritually judged (in the lake of fire)? I'm sorry if this question is confusing but I'm basically asking if God can judge us without the physical suffering and he can do it with emotional suffering only then why does there have to be any physical pain? And if it does require physical pain for us to learn righteousness then how will the non-believers be judged in the lake of fire if spiritual fire can't physically damage a spiritual being? Hope this makes sense, let me know if I need to clarify things a little bit more...

Ecc 3:1  To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven

Not all judgment requires physical suffering, but all judgment requires spiritual chastisement. The purpose of judgment is to learn righteousness, to learn to obey and do what is right at all times and under all conditions. That does not always need to be taught through physical sufferings. A parent does not need to spank their child for every lesson to be learned, only when it is necessary.



Hope this helps,

Marques

[arion]

And if it does require physical pain for us to learn righteousness then how will the non-believers be judged in the lake of fire if spiritual fire can't physically damage a spiritual being?

Those that are not the elect are not raised in the resurrection with a spiritual body.  They are resurrected as flesh.

Hi Ray,I've been in the forum and read one of your email replies where it's implied that the elect will be resurrected with spiritual bodies and the wicked will be resurrected with physical bodies.

    I'm really not seeing this, so I'm asking you for help. I don't know if the answer to this should be longer than an email, but if you can tell me where this statement comes from, maybe I won't be confused on the matter.Your friend,

    Beau

    Dear Beau:  It is only the "we"--the believing elect of God that will be resurrected with spiritual bodies (I Cor. 15:42-54).  Hitler will not be resurrected with a POWERFUL, GLORIOUS, SPIRITUAL BODY! (I Cor. 15:42-44. Those with these GLORIOUS bodies are the "we"  of verse 49, not the wicked and unbelieving who will be resurrected to JUDGMENT.
    God be with you,
    Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6244.0.html

At this link is a categorized list of emails to Ray that has been provided for us and there is a whole section on the two resurrections.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html

[Kat]

Like Arion said the resurrection of the dead/second resurrection will be back to a physical life, where they will be place on this physical earth to go through judgment/lake of fire. Ray wrote a short article on this 'Physical or spiritual Resurrection Bodies For The Wicked & Non-believers?' at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html

We are learning many spiritual lessons in this physical experience of life, it is the spirit within that is teaching us now. The people resurrected back to life will again be put through a physical experience in which they will learn righteousness and it will be the Elect reigning with Christ that will enforce His rule on earth.

Isa 30:20  And though the Lord gives you
       The bread of adversity and the water of affliction,
       Yet your teachers will not be moved into a corner anymore,
       But your eyes shall see your teachers.
v. 21  Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,
       "This is the way, walk in it,"
       Whenever you turn to the right hand
       Or whenever you turn to the left.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Eze 37:13  And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

There is a "Judgment on the House of God now" and the future Day of the Lord that shall come upon the whole earth .

Blessings Arc

[wonderment]

I read the bit Ray wrote in the link you posted Kat but are there any scriptures that tell of what exactly goes on during this second death physical resurrection of the wicked?

[Kat]

Well the resurrection brings them back to life, I think Isaiah 2, 13, 34, 58, also Joel 2 and 5, Zephaniah 1 all depicts the second death/Day of the Lord. There are more too, look for "the day of the Lord" in Scripture. But of course these Scripture are written in symbolic language.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[margo]

Thank you Kat,  The day of the Lord, really helped.  Margo

[Brett]

Hello,

Wicked people will raise physical again for judgment, okay, but physical will died second times and raise second time with spiritual bodies, right? If so, where do I find scriptures that say raise spiritual bodies in second times?

Thanks

[mharrell08]

Hello,

Wicked people will raise physical again for judgment, okay, but physical will died second times and raise second time with spiritual bodies, right?

No, one doesn't need to die to be changed.

1 Cor 15:51  ...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

The answer is here:

Rom 6:5  For IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

See that word IF?

WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into DEATH." (Rom 6; 3-4)  
There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their " Second death Judgment."
Ref : HELL Part E

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The wicked who have physically died and have not yet received the earnest of His Spirit, or been baptized into His Death or circumcised in their hearts, have yet to die so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled, so that eveyone shall come to know practically and by personal experience, that

Rom 6:23.... the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Nowhere do the Scriptures say that the wages of sin is life. Death is the wage of sin for every sinner. Everyone has sinned, and so too shall everyone be Judged.

Notice that there is a GIFT of God also! The gift is received through Judgment.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The reigning with Christ is for the "Blessed and holy" . The "blessed and holy" become "blessed and holy" through Judgement.

The wicked have no place alongside Christ, and the "blessed and holy". The unjust are still carnal and have yet to endure the purging of the second death that doesn't harm those with Christ. Christ and his Saints elect, blessed and holy, are the LOF  to those yet carnal and impure. I am not sure where Ray expounds this yet I know he does and this is how I believe.

The body then of the just by contrast to the wicked is very different. There are no similarities. The unjust body is yet carnal and must die through the second death to emerge purified.

Being carnally minded is the complete opposite to being spiritually minded.  Carnal minded and spirit minded are at diametric opposite poles, and one is life and the other is death. L.Ray Smith Ref ARE YOU YET CARNAL Mobile Conference 2009

All go through Judgement. Non shall be lost.

...those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. L. Ray Smith PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS

The difference between the Elect of God and the wicked, is that the Elect have overcome and reign with Christ. The Elect don't escape Judgement. They are, through Judgement proved worthy. This has nothing to do with a cadavre, corpse or dead physical body....well...that's how I believe and understand this. This is not a teaching just what I believe.

I believe that  the unjust shall also go through the purging purifying process that gets the job done to thoroughly burn out carnality once and for all. This process doesn't harm the already purged, purified and pure.

Will the wicked have physical flesh bodies?  A flesh body is not proof of carnality. As Ray expounds, a body can not do anything. A body is a vehicle through which the spiritual condition of the heart is made manifest.  The death required is death to carnality that denotes a spiritual condition that has to be purified through fire that is not literal fire burning literal physical bodies to death.

Ecc 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

God says ALL things come ALIKE to ALL, so why would that change into an imagined, unrealistic and unscriptural event as wickedness that occupies the heavenly realms becoming physical or the physical rebellious children of Adam become spiritual for their judgments? The Scriptures say no such thing.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
2Th 3:1  Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

God willing, these thoughts might urge you to understand more about Your God and mine, that

Rom 8:39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
Blessings

Arc

[Kat]

Hi Brett,

Here is a excerpt that should help.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------

THE SECOND DEATH

It's time for another one of those enigmatic Scriptures that sound very simple, but are difficult to harmonize with all Scriptures compare "spiritual with spiritual" and believe Jesus when He tells us that His "words ARE spirit" (John 6:63). Here is that enigmatic statement:

"And as it is appointed unto men [Gk: 'anthropose'--human, mankind] once to die, but after this the judgment"

This Scripture is all-encompassing, universal, and applies to every human who has ever lived. All humanity must die once, and after that death, they must be judged. There are no exceptions, not even for mentally challenged, teens, youngsters and even infants.
v
The Chosen Elect are judged now in this Church age (I Cor. 11:31), while the unrepentant, unbelieving, mentally challenged, infants, and all other such categories, are judged in the resurrection to Judgment (I Cor. 11:32)--"In that day," as the Scriptures mention so many times.
v
v
"Because he hath appointed a day [called that day and the Day of the Lord in many prophesies], in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man Whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).

Some Scriptures refer to judgment on the unrepentant, wicked, and unbelievers. Others refer to judgment on the chosen Elect of God. And still others refer to judgment on both the wicked and the Elect, but at different times.
v
v
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see.
v
It's all in Rom. 8:13:

"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

Paul puts people into two options (based on God's foreknowledge):

OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
v
Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[grapehound]

Arc and Kat, thank  you so much for those posts.
So succinct and easy to 'get'.

Thank you both for the 'breakdowns'.
They have really clarified so many things for me.

Thanks Arc for Ecc 9:2. What a jewel!

Blessings both

Grape

[Deborah-Leigh]

I am so glad you have been blessed to see with spiritual eyes what the Lord has edified to me Grape!

Blessings brother
Arc

[Dawidos]

I will add this Scripture to this discussion.

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN'S WORK of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE"
(I Cor. 3:11-15)

Everybody will be saved. Saved from what? From death resulting from carnality and sinful nature. For me it means the final fate of those in second ressurection is the same one as in God's Elect case. So everyone will obtain immortality and place in God's kingdom, but in right order planned by God.

[grapehound]

Well said Dawidos, thank you Brother. 

[wonderment]

I know there aren't any scriptures that answer any of these questions specifically but are there any scriptures that denote what the second death will be like for the wicked? Like what kinds of judgements they will have to go through after they are resurrected as flesh? It's hard for me to imagine all the non-believing dead coming back as their same flesh. What about small children and infants? Is everyone resurrected at the same time? Wouldn't that lead to overpopulation of the Earth? Will people who died of illness be vivified with the same illness? Will they have the knowledge that they are being judged for the sake of their own righteousness? Will this whole process potentially take a very long aion? I have so many questions about this... sorry

[Deborah-Leigh]

Don't be sorry wonderment....take one step at a time....first of all...EVERYTHING is not literal as we understand at first. At first, everything we hear and see, seems to us to be physical and literal. God is Spirit and God doesn't speak to us with meanings that are meant to be taken literally.

If you begin by reading the LOF part one...then, step by step...God willing He will show you what HE MEANS and take you away from literal understandings.

It takes His Spirit to understand anything about God. You wouldn't be asking anything if God were not causing you to ask!

To answer your question quote : .......are there any scriptures that denote what the second death will be like for the wicked?......Yes....there are many many scriptures....death is described in many places throughout the Scriptures that show the pain and agony of not knowing God.

The Good News is that the deaths and terrible conditions that have to be experienced as God teaches us to know the difference between good and evil, is temporary. Good shall overcome evil and life will overcome death....God is the Victory of all that is good, wholesome and of good report for God is Life and God is Good. God is Love.

Blessings
Arc

[G. Driggs]

I know there aren't any scriptures that answer any of these questions specifically but are there any scriptures that denote what the second death will be like for the wicked? Like what kinds of judgements they will have to go through after they are resurrected as flesh? It's hard for me to imagine all the non-believing dead coming back as their same flesh. What about small children and infants? Is everyone resurrected at the same time? Wouldn't that lead to overpopulation of the Earth? Will people who died of illness be vivified with the same illness? Will they have the knowledge that they are being judged for the sake of their own righteousness? Will this whole process potentially take a very long aion? I have so many questions about this... sorry

I'm almost 100 percent certain Ray answers all these questions you have in his papers. You would do very well to take Arcturus' advice, which is to read them lake of fire series.  

Here is a teaser to one of your questions. From: http://www.bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

THE SECOND DEATH

It's time for another one of those enigmatic Scriptures that sound very simple, but are difficult to harmonize with all Scriptures compare "spiritual with spiritual" and believe Jesus when He tells us that His "words ARE spirit" (John 6:63). Here is that enigmatic statement:

   "And as it is appointed unto men [Gk: 'anthropose'--human, mankind] once to die, but after this the judgment"

This Scripture is all-encompassing, universal, and applies to every human who has ever lived. All humanity must die once, and after that death, they must be judged. There are no exceptions, not even for mentally challenged, teens, youngsters and even infants. (Do sound-minded Christians really believe that when babies die they go to heaven and therefore, there will be millions of eternal babies [in diapers?] living in heaven for all eternity AS BABIES?) God has a way to deal with babies and infants in the Day of Judgment that will be quite equitable......
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I know there is a lot to read, but it so worth the time. I have personally read and re-read most of Ray's papers at least 3 or 4 times, and I still find something new every time.

Here is one more where Ray speaks of the judgment of those that blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Where they say the work of God is the work of the devil.

http://www.bible-truths.com/email15.htm

If you don't repent of you blasphemy now, Lisa, one day you will be literally "TORMENTED in the presence of the Lamb."  This UN-repented sin of yours will torment you more than words can ever describe when you are faced with it IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB OF GOD!  You will wish that you could DIE. But you won't be able to die; you must face your sins, and they WILL TORMENT YOU HORRIBLY!  You absolutely will not be able to believe that you ever ever would say such damnable things about those who write on the Goodness of God. Think long and hard about what you are doing in your casual, flippant, sarcastic, know-it-all, holier-than-thou, self-righteous attitude.
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I sincerely hope this will encourage you to read Ray's papers and double check in Scriptures to see if what Ray says is true.

Peace

G.Driggs

"It will not be a walk in the park for any of them" L. Ray Smith on the righteous judgment of God

[Deborah-Leigh]

Excellent contribution G.Driggs

Blessings brothers

Arc