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[Deborah-Leigh]

Rom 12:19  not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

I wish I could do this! God has given me the desire to give place to wrath but not the accomplishment yet!! That is a huge gift to have the desire given from God, I realise yet look how tough the circumstances through which that gift is made visible!....

A Cop who fancies himself to be a Pastor  and has tried to recruit my husband and I to his Cell group, got together to trap my helper in my shop. They sent a person to buy biltong who asked for an additional payment slip. My helper unwittingly gave him what he wanted. The Cop who  has tried to recruit me to his Church, came to my shop to slander my helper telling me he was stealing.  

My helper had already informed me of the incident and so I called him out and told the Cop that what had happened was entrapment and slander. He said he was only trying to help me and I replied that God watches over me and that He provides. Why didn’t I just give place to wrath and smile sweetly!!!...and look right through him…God sent this experience to me and I have a hard time keeping quiet…well…as you know! I feel infuriated with the encounter of what I know God finds abominable

Pro 6:18  a heart that plots wicked plans, feet hurrying to run to evil,
Pro 6:19  a false witness who speaks lies, and he who causes fighting among brothers.

The Blessing is to endure and to make me depend even more on God……and God is giving me His Spirit to endure even as I feel the heat of God’s consuming fire in me! times can be hard right?...when we are doing our best and we don't know how....smiling when we are close to tears...and thankfully enduring the reciept of the gift from God to DESIRE to obey, believe and joy in that accomplishment only He can give!

I feel better already...poor Cop....I need to pray for him...

So what’s God been up to in your life lately?

Blessings
Arc

[DougE6]

Wow

you said it! I think you spoke for most of us when you talk about the difference between the desire to do what is required and the actual accomplishment of it!  IMO, the hardest thing I can do to keep quiet or smile sweetly or to LOVE someone while they are cheating, lying or slandering ourself.  It is unfair, we cry, inside! I want fairness, and fairness includes wrath and vengeance.  But God says vengeance is his, He will repay, and we have to try to attain to that, to give God place, and to love our enemy instead.

 
Rom 12:17  Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:19  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21  Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Honestly, I think these are the hardest teachings in the Bible.
Doug

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Doug

It is great to see you on this thread ~ I appreciate your views.

One can know and serve and serve and know and God can even help me to find the knowldege others are seeking and requiring but LOVE...can I love and help others find LOVE? Nope! THAT'S when it gets really tough when Love comes to visit.

Look....in hind sight and in faith...God knew EXACTLY how I'd respond! HE knew and I repented, looked back, came here and wrote the incident down in quest for edification encouragement and council....God is working it all out and showing me how much needs to be done yet within me. As for the Cop...I truely believe that God caused him too, to do what he thought was right and the fact that he was given a Word of God....SLANDER....to go and think about...I believe caused some Godly influences upon him too. I don't think God can mess up! He knows what He's doing and though I speculate on what He is doing in the other chap...there's no doubt what He is showing me!..and it is nothing to do what He is doing in others....

I am grateful that God is deepening the shallow part of me...I am glad.

I did feel better for praying for him....and in the prayer I was shown that what I pray for him, is returned back to me. That was quite wonderful! I asked God to open his eyes and show him and correct him....well He did that for me ...right back to me....I can see the shortfall within...it hurts.

God knows and above all, God loves...

Blessings to you

Arc

[tamaralv]

I agree, Arc, it does hurt to be shown our shortcomings. Blessedly, it never ends now that He's begun His work in us (me). It seems strange that we should look forward to and even ask God for this burning up of our dross, since it is so painful, but we know the end result. Let me just say that I was someone who used to love much and I was hurt much, very much.  My fundamenatist Christian grandmother once told me that I was too forgiving...I think I was maybe 10yrs old. Later in life when I faced the hurts of rejection, I remembered what she said and I believed her. I became cold and unfeeling over time, not consciously, but eventually I felt dead...For all intents and purposes I think I was dead! No Love, no Joy, no Peace, NO Hope!  How sad that I spent the majority of my life reacting to pain with coldness and even hate. Now I deal with tears, tears, and more tears! Boy, for someone who didn't feel anything for so long, I sure am a baby! But Arc, what wonderful works He's doing! I don't have much. My husband is gone, I have no home of my own (I'm staying with family), and I am not able to get more than about 25-30 hrs a week at work, my health isn't great and I could really use a break sometimes! But I am so very, very, blessed with family that love me, a daughter who loves God and is doing amazing in school and I am blessed to even have a job, so who am I to complain? Lol The biggest blessing is finding the Truth and my Father after being so lost for so long and learning to trust Him to teach me as I go through this life. I really can't think of anywhere I'd rather be in my life than where I am right now. Oh boy, I'm sorry I rambled! I don't post very often because I have felt that I'm here to learn and listen. More and more though, I have wanted to join in so who knows, maybe I will 

Peace and Love,
Tammy

 p.s. As a side note, I have been also very blessed by so many of the posts lately! It's still amazing to me that in my seeking, I'm still led here over and over again. This forum is my home away from home in a cold dark world and I can't thank God enough for dragging me here repeatedly and providing so much Truth and understanding of His word through Ray and the wonderful people on the forum.

[judith collier]

Tamaralv, enjoyed your post. Sure can relate! I used to cry but my eyes would swell up so bad I gave it up and got angry instead. It sure felt better but temper is not a genuine emotion because underneath is fear and pain.
Then when the temper is released and relief is felt then comes the bigger burden of knowing you didn't use self control and the fact you most likely hurt the other person and when I hurt someone else the pain is worse because I feel it in me. I have managed to hurt myself more than the other person ever could.
It is better to get away from the other person until you can get a handle on it. I have not got this completely down yet as I do believe in standing up for myself but I ususally go too far. I am beginning to realize the other person is extremely unhappy if they lashed out at me.
I can't bear the anger and I can't bear the tears. This subject is a work in progress for me but getting away is about the best I can do now. There is a difference between aggressiveness and assertiveness. Or even why does one have to defend themselves. I have found out when God is allowed to handle the situation the tables get turned by the most interesting circumstances. All I need to do is control my speech muscles. Sounds easy but not! Judy

[Akira329]

Rom 12:19  not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

I wish I could do this! God has given me the desire to give place to wrath but not the accomplishment yet!! That is a huge gift to have the desire given from God, I realise yet look how tough the circumstances through which that gift is made visible!....

A Cop who fancies himself to be a Pastor  and has tried to recruit my husband and I to his Cell group, got together to trap my helper in my shop. They sent a person to buy biltong who asked for an additional payment slip. My helper unwittingly gave him what he wanted. The Cop who  has tried to recruit me to his Church, came to my shop to slander my helper telling me he was stealing.  

My helper had already informed me of the incident and so I called him out and told the Cop that what had happened was entrapment and slander. He said he was only trying to help me and I replied that God watches over me and that He provides. Why didn’t I just give place to wrath and smile sweetly!!!...and look right through him…God sent this experience to me and I have a hard time keeping quiet…well…as you know! I feel infuriated with the encounter of what I know God finds abominable

Pro 6:18  a heart that plots wicked plans, feet hurrying to run to evil,
Pro 6:19  a false witness who speaks lies, and he who causes fighting among brothers.

The Blessing is to endure and to make me depend even more on God……and God is giving me His Spirit to endure even as I feel the heat of God’s consuming fire in me! times can be hard right?...when we are doing our best and we don't know how....smiling when we are close to tears...and thankfully enduring the reciept of the gift from God to DESIRE to obey, believe and joy in that accomplishment only He can give!

I feel better already...poor Cop....I need to pray for him...

So what’s God been up to in your life lately?

Blessings
Arc

A hard verse to accomplish indeed Deb!
Your not alone when it comes to struggling for its fulfillment in your life. I struggle too.

People will find it strange that when you react to situations like this according to the scriptures.

Thanks for sharing Deborah!

Antaiwan

[Samson]

Hi Deborah,

Galatians. 5:22,23 " But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, LONGSUFFERING, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, SELF CONTROL, against such things there is no law." (Highlighted traits relate especially to Samson's training). By the way, where do you want me to begin, God's got plenty of Work to perform in Samson's spiritual character,  .

Romans. 12:(17-21) indeed, not necessarily returning "Evil for Evil," in action or words, but certainly in thoughts, the desire to take avenge, a struggle in ones thoughts, not having the patience to wait on God to right the wrong received is presently before me. Now, a current Life's example written in the next Paragraph.

Last July 2010, My Ex-Wife called to inform me that My oldest Daughter, She's almost twenty, will no longer be attending College and I should proceed to take steps to terminate the Child Support Order and have Her emancipated. I called the Family Division in order inquire about the necessary steps to be taken in order to proceed. I was told to either prepare a Consent Letter, to be signed by both parties, witnessed, sealed and signed by a Notary or File a Motion with the Court for Termination of said Order. I elected to present a consent Form, proceeded to do so and received a response that it was prepared wrong, etc. Each signature had to be notarized individually and separately. I explained that I wasn't told that and that I'm getting conflicting explanations on how to proceed. Eventually, I even took my Daughter down there with thorough identification, including Her Birth Certificate to have Her emancipate Herself, remember She's almost twenty, at eighteen a person is considered an Adult. They told me, it can't be done this way. So, they gave me a File a Motion Packet for me to fill out, etc, etc, etc. Finally, after figuring who gets copies of What, Who gets Copies Certified, the time frame, I finally filed this Motion this past Monday. Keep in mind, this Motion packet contains 12 pages, costs $30.00 to process, plus the cost of certified copies. Since July, I've actually had to take a break from this endeavor, due to the stress involved. Read, the bottom line in all of this below.

In the U.S. there's an epidemic of Men who don't pay their Child Support. They either end up in Jail, move away to States that are very lenient or move away, so as not to be found. I know of a Relative that owed over $100,000.00 in Child Support Arrears and a local jurisdiction told Him, He didn't have to pay anymore, because all the Children were over 30 years old. They told His Ex-Wife, to just get over it. Boy, do I despise Double Standards. Here I am, paying like I'm supposed all these years for Two Daughters(the others Sixteen) and I'm getting these games and all this grief from the Warren County Family Division. That's where Romans. 12:(17-21) enters the equation. To be honest, I ain't too thrilled with the instructions at Romans. 13:(1-5) either.

Now, I know that some of might respond with this: James. 1:2-4 " Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, knowing as you do that this tested faith works out endurance, But let your endurance have it's work complete, that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." Comment: Ain't no Joy when going through it, but only after the fact. None of us enjoy these trials while going through them, only after the fact. I guess that " A World dominated by Double Standards" is a World of learning Contrasts, the Good and the Evil. I'm a learning, but it ain't pleasant.

                          Great Thread Deb, Samson.

[Deborah-Leigh]

I hear you! Tammy, Judy, Antaiwan (thanks for the encouragement) and Samson.

Yea, we have to go through it all. I think the goofiest things about it all is that for some stupid, pride filled error in thinking, it seems that we are the only one who is stupid, flawed and fragile when in fact everyone is. The difference is they are covering it up better than we can as we break apart and fall into that heap where there is no soul in sight to help out and Psalm 107 we cry to God….We have to go through THAT! We have to be the goliath and get our ballet right between our eyes with a name on only we can know before our own heads are cut off with our own swords! We have to be the least in the Kingdom and go through the doubts, the prison of our souls and then get our heads cut off so all our head knowledge is severed from our bodies….and then we leave earth on a pole with no arms legs nothing and we get to see the world through our dead eyes opened for the first time in jaw dropping amazement that has no voice box anymore. Our heads served up on a silver platter to a king who has given a harlot daughter her wish.  It is a macabre, ghoulish, grizzly and chilling thing to be experiencing even a fraction of what Jesus Christ suffered. I don’t think there is one type of pain that is not and cannot be traced back to something our Lord endured, despised and suffered. That too is a stupid, pride filled error to think that pain is different from anything God has suffered first before us. God knows everything and you know what, it is easy to write it, but to believe it…that requires God to deliver when suffering becomes a source of rejoicing, realizing  that any suffering we endure is not fit to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in those who are given to "endure to the end".

Blessings

Arc

[Deborah-Leigh]

Back to you double, GodISGracious........

Blessings

Arc

[grapehound]

Awesome thread Arc, and very timely. Thank you.
Totally identify with all replies, thanks guys.

Grape

[Deborah-Leigh]

Can you match that beautiful testimony to someone in the Bible, do you think Janine?

Awesome thread Arc, and very timely. Thank you.
Totally identify with all replies, thanks guys.

Grape

I am glad you think so Grape!

As You say, Grape, Quote The meaning of a communication is the response it receives. No matter what we intend to communicate, words can be treacherously clumsy and sometimes downright inadequate.  The meaning is in the ear; not in the tongue. Or has God said in vain, " Let he who has an ear, hear..........."? Ref : http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12374.msg108233.html#msg108233

Two years ago Dave in Tenn opened a Thread titled : Who's "You" in the Bible?

Dave asked : Is there a person in the Bible that you have encountered that you particularly relate to?  Why?

Since ultimately there is no male or female in the Kingdom, if a man relates to Esther or a woman to King David that's OK. ...unquote

I’d like to exercise the lisence to re-direct. I prefer not to open another thread to do this as the re-direction is out of the roots of this thread where I am seeing that my  Monstrous spiritual condition relates to my loosing my head as in Goliath and John the Baptist! ...a combo...!blast from the past...

So, to rephrase Dave’s question : Do you relate to someone particular at this time in your spiritual condition, with anyone you know in the Bible. And if not. Do you see someone in your life experiencing the spiritual conditions of a particular character in the Bible. Please share.

I for one, am most grateful that even though I feel like the dark side of Goliath and the beheaded John, AND even so, I am most grateful that I am not that chap who got his eyes gouged out after seeing his sons murdered. 2Ki 25:7  And they killed the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes, and put out the eyes of Zedekiah, and bound him with bronze chains and carried him to Babylon. Jer 52:11  Then he put out the eyes of Zedekiah; and the king of Babylon bound him in chains, and carried him to Babylon, and put him in prison till the day of his death. We might know a few like him. As for all the people I see in my life, I can not see many in the Bible so they are just part of the sea for me.

As Ray says : We can turn wholeheartedly to God and be thankful to know how blessed we are! We are all out of Adam. God frames evil and knows how far it is going. Nothing is out of control. Ref : Last two pages  Transcript of a talk about Repentance.

So have you seen yourself in the Bible lately. Or someone you know? Even if it is treacherously clumsy...what can be worse than loosing your head,.,twice in one condition!!

Dave from Tenn...maybe you want to up-date where you were then and where you are now?...

I wonder if there are any men here who might be able to relate to Magdalene

Blessings
Arc

[Shawn Fainn]

Magdalene? Yeah, used to be just like her.

[grapehound]

Food for deep thought Arc.
I'll have to get back to y'all on that one!

Hudson, that rocks! 

Saw you more as a 'Ripley' !  

Grape

[Deborah-Leigh]

Joh 19:25  Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

There are many aspects to any one single life.

Where we are at any one point in our life, can change and God willing it does....who'd want to be the blind guy, stuck in jail, remembering only how his sons were killed before his eyes, until his death? Or to know the suffering of any woman or man to see another traumatised beyond description of pain agony and suffering that is unmerited in our eyes....

Pain is unanimous in us all....the joy that comes in the morning is evidenced too, by the sorrow that precedes the presence of Christ in our lives.

Hudson, we have all done the following. Accepting it is equal to accepting the Word of God in our lives and not rejecting what He says. He knows us better than we know ourselves and to know ourselves we should learn about the personalities in His Word. We are all there! Everything and everyone is there!

Isa 52:3  For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Blessings
Arc

[Shawn Fainn]

Though I tend to joke mostly... In all seriousness though, I am so grateful for the changes God has made in my life. Looking back at where I was and where I am now, even though it's still a work in progress, It's such an amazing difference.

Overall though, as far as which biblical persona I relate with most, I guess it'd have to be Elijah. His struggle with the priests of Baal and trying to get people back to the Truth, seems be playing out in my life currently.

I see that quality in Ray also, as well as in many of you here.

In many ways, we are all together on Mount Carmel.

[Dave in Tenn]

I said then, Barnabas.  I still think that, but my reasons have matured, maybe.  In the accounts in Acts and elsewhere, Barnabas gets top billing in the missionary duo of Barnabas and Paul.  Quietly and without explanation, the billing exchanges and it becomes Paul and Barnabas.  Eventually, Paul rises to the pre-eminience and Barnabas is scarcely or never mentioned again.  If Paul is an example of Christ, then this very much is a picture of our walk of discipleships with Him.  He must increase, and I must decrease.

I don't want to create a "Doctrine of Barnabasificationism"--it's just one of those 'whatsoever things are lovely' things that percolates up in my mind sometimes as I look at both scripture and my life.

I can almost feel the excruciating difficulty Paul had in giving his 'testimony'.  Some things are just too complex, personal, and difficult to relate in language.  But look at how he tries.

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

That is pretty much the same as saying 'He must increase and I must decrease'.

Beyond Barnabus, though, I relate to some extent to every 'character' in the Bible when my Spiritual Eyes are working.  For me, that's why they are IN the bible, and in whatever ways and to whatever degree their lives and words reveal what's in me--both good and bad--they are the fore-shadow of God's work in me.

[Kat]

Hi Arc,

I have been following this discussion with interest. I will say in a way that I can relate to Eve... in my church years I did give the fruit of the tree to my family and they did eat. 

Then I also relate to Moses, when God called him he did not want to go and said; "Oh Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: for I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue" (Exo 4:10)

But God provided and Moses did go forward to lead the children of Israel. Though Moses was surrounded by a blind bunch of people, kind of like I feel some times with my family and friends. But Moses did have Aaron as someone he could talk to and a helper and I do too in my eldest daughter.

Another thing that I think I relate to is how I feel with the people here... when Mary visited Elizabeth while she was pregnant with Christ.

Luke 1:39  Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah,
v. 40  and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
v. 41  And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
v. 42  Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
v. 43  But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
v. 44  For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

So often the spirit within me leaps for joy when I read a post and indeed I am filled with the spirit from what I receive from my brothers or sisters here 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

Hi Arc and All
Great thread, I can in some respects relate to Mary Magdalene.
According to Luke 8: 2 seven devils went out of her, I don't know how many God has delivered me from, but I am a blessed man.
I could be wrong about her, but can anyone show me in the scriptures where it says she was a prostitute?
God says we are to love Him and our neighbors as ourselves, that seems to be where I am at this day and time. Could be the people, or person we are wanting God to swat, God is working a work in their lives the same as us. And I could find myself fighting against God, and missing the point all together.
He is showing me I need to PRAY more, doesn't cost any money, don't have that much any way.   James 3:17 tells me, "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.  Think I will study the book of James more. About the tongue.

Joel

[grapehound]

As to your very searching question Arc, I have this to relate:

During my last 5 or so years in Babylon, I was part of a theatre group. My last ‘assignment’ was to play the part  of Peter. 
I prefer ‘Method’ for this type of role. For those not familiar with this term, briefly , ‘Method’ is a style of learning a part, that is born of the film industry;
due to the nature of how a movie is recorded and edited.
It involves immersing one’s self deep into the character and as much as possible, living the person in your daily life.  This sometimes can cause problems within the home and at work!  Thankfully, both populations of those arenas already had me down as a nutcase, so the transition was a little easier than it might have been.

The production was a montage/facsimile of the Gospels, set amongst a rural community of peasants in the 19th century, Northern Europe.
I was hoping for the character of Jesus, but thankfully it went to a young man of far greater ability, whom claimed a bravura performance.  Therefore during rehearsals, I felt honoured to be playing his Peter.

I thought I’d somewhat ’over egged the custard’ by using Method.
On performance night, I really did feel the weight of Peter’s denial and quite unexpectedly, when Jesus spoke the immortal line, “Do you love me , Peter?”, I folded into a whingeing, gibbering, snotty heap, at His feet and could barely say my lines! 

Two people came to me afterwards and thanked me for “an earthy performance” !  However, I was still in ‘Peter’  mode.
I remember this ‘Peter’ replying. “That wasn’t a performance!” 

I’m not sure, to this day, if they had a clue as to why I’d said it.

Strangely, Peter took a long time to work off, so strong is his person.
Today, there is still a little more than a remnant of him.
So in answer to your question Arc, in a word;  Peter.

Grape

( I really struggled to compose this without sounding boastful. I’m not sure I achieved that, so my humble apologies.)

[Deborah-Leigh]

Reading through all of your intimate experiences with the Spirit of God, working personally in your lives, shares with others to see how clearly  God works with each of us in most personal and individual ways. I could not imagine the diversity, yet here it is contained in but a handful of replies.

 If you had to ask me to describe how God works in the body of His Spirit He appoints to each of us, I can now see such different works He engineers with integral  rarity of His gifts appointed to each of us. This thread that reaches back two years ago through a question Dave presented, contains yet again, the evidence our Father brings to us to show He is not far off, remote or distant to any single event or experience we are appointed to live. The beauty contained in each of your testimonies of how God is personally creating in each of you the myriad blessings that come from Him testifies to the detail God observes in His dealings with each of us. Which gift of God’s work is more gorgeous is like asking, which color in the rainbow is more beautiful? Each are magnificent and when they stand together, they represent a promise of our God as His Bow etched in the stormy skies of our lives and experiences.

Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Blessings
Arc