Exposing Contradictions for Family

[Akira329]

Hey Guys,

My father has ask me on numerous occasions to attend his church and just listen and point out errors when they come up.
My first thought was, "this is a set up".
But, I think my dad is trying to get me back in the church to tell them the things I've told him.
I probably would but the judge and jury are still out on whether or not he believes what I'm telling him.

He wants me to sit through one service to judge what I hear.
When I ask him why, he really doesn't give an anwser.

I mean, if I show him from scriptures that a few things are off what would it mean to him?
I have a feeling it wouldn't mean anything.

Right now, I'm unsure of his intentions for wanting me to do this.
I'm even thinking of telling him to record the service and give me the tape.
Which is much better than having to sit through service!

Has this ever come up in any of you all families?

Thanks
Antaiwan

[Linny]

I don't see the point. As you said, he can get a tape and you guys can sit and discuss it. I would be surprised if they didn't sell them  And as long as he isn't telling you why, there is no way I'd do it.
Thankfully, so far, none of my family knows what heretics we are,    so I haven't had this come up. My BIL is a pastor in another state. He knows some of what we believe but hasn't shared with my sister what he and my hubby discussed and she hasn't asked why we left the church. Once she does, it'll all hit the fan. SO looking forward to that day!  NOT!

[Deborah-Leigh]

Exo 20:12  Honor thy father and thy mother; that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

My father has ask me on numerous occasions to attend his church and just listen and point out errors when they come up.

Okay Lin and Janine....sorry but maybe we should take this view into consideration. Who is my Mother and brethren...right? Well those who do the will of God, yes. We know that the Babylonian is not doing the will of God and that IS the Will of God because God Plans that we all go against His Will BEFORE He causes us to repent. So, I think that the painful way, the way of doing as is requested by the father of Akira329, as much as it hurts....is what is going to bless the most. Hey...we are all here for you Akira329...God shall cause you to do what you prefer to do anyway and that will be in accord to the condition of your own heart. We're not here to judge you dear brother and it is difficult to see what God is calling you to experience. I am glad it is not me I can tell you that!.....

I was younger than you and like us all who have and are coming out of Babylon, our indoctrination was part of the Plan of God for us. I did not know that I would become adapted to the traditions and conformed to the errors until God came to drag and repent me to come out of Harlot Babylon.  I was never asked however, to point out ERRORS! Then maybe I'd know to look out for them with my blind eyes. I thought the Church I went to was inerrant! .....actually, that's not true....I never thought! ...I only started to learn to do that afterwards!

I can't say I know what is going on with your Dad but be comforted that, God is in control and is causing everything that will be for good. So maybe you should point out an error and let your Dad see that your "religion" is not causing you to become rebellious against God, but obedient, longsuffering and worthy. A sermon in evidence of living example, is worth far more than the one in speech or writing!

What does Ray say....winning an argument with cleaver lines is a hollow victory. "A person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Blessings
Arc

[Joel]

Hi Akira329
Think your father would sit down for about an hour, and seriously look at the material at bible-truths.com, if he hasn't already done so?

Joel

[Marky Mark]

I probably would but the judge and jury are still out on whether or not he believes what I'm telling him.

He wants me to sit through one service to judge what I hear.
When I ask him why, he really doesn't give an anwser.

Hey Antaiwan. Hope all is well with you bro.

From your quote above, it sounds like you already know your dads intentions. I think instead of blowing off the request why not ask him instead to sit down and open up a bible and go over some Scripture that you both already know to be the True Word of God and not some doctrine of demons. The Holy Spirit can then lead you both into something other than conflict,seeing that The Word never lies. Just a thought.

Joel's idea with Scripture in hand sounds like a game plan also.


Peace...Mark

[Phil3:10]

Antainwan,
I know that you love your father and pleasing him would make you feel much better. I face the same thing with my wife, my mother-in-law and close associates. They think because I do not personally attend a religious service that I am not in close contact with GOD. However, this is the far from truth, I have never felt closer to my GOD as when I left the confines of the Babylonian Institution and found the truths espoused by Ray Smith. I literally spent over a thousand hours trying to disprove a single thing that Ray teaches but was unable to disprove a single one.
MY wife has become totally disgusted with her Baptist preacher and has quit going to church. However she does attend Sunday School and keeps 3 radios tuned into old preachers like J. Vernon McGee and to Christian music radio. I am in my home office, which I share with my wife, and I finally had to turn off the radio as I could not concentrate on my prayers and time in the forum. My wife cannot understand why I dislike having to listen to these sermons and especially music. I have not yet been able to convince her that they are an affront to all that I hold dear.
In conclusion, I am certain that your father feels much like my wife. What is good for some is bad for others but it is difficult for them to understand your feelings. I have printed out many of Ray's articles and seriously doubt that my wife has read fully a single one. I can only pray that in GOD'S time frame HE will open her eyes to HIS perfect truths. There is little else I can do but try to be a good example.
In HIM,
Phi3:10

[Patrick]

http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#yoked

What do you tell them? Actually, you are not obligated to tell them ANYTHING for not meeting with them.

However, here is a Scripture that tells us what to do when we are entangled with those who do not believe the Truths of God:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with UNBELIEVERS [those who do not believe the Truths of God]: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?  And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel. And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? [or 'idols of the heart'--Ezek. 14:4, which are FALSE doctrines and FALSE teachings] for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  Wherefore COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE YOU SEPARATE, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 5:14-18).

There is your Scriptural reason for not assembling with them.

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues

Jer 51:45 "Come out of her, my people! Run for your lives! NIV

[Deborah-Leigh]

Patrick

You are quite right!  

And Rene,  I think you did the appropriate thing to accord with the Scriptures.

I guess Akira329, you have to decide who your father is?   ...and who you are going to obey, revere, and honor....

What a great opportunity....painful yes, but great...also!

Please let us know what you do next....or what the Lord causes you to do!

We all have to be separated from our attachments to the earthy Adam which we are all out of,  as we are lifted to recieve the Heavenly realms where our family in Christ and His Spirit are dwelling! ..........I still don't know what God is doing with you and your Dad Akira329...maybe He is lifting you both up....or not....His consuming fire is on you!

Blessings
Arc

[Kat]

Hi Antaiwan,

I think that your father may be straddling the fence and does not know which way to go. Though he hears what you say and can not deny it, the preachers of Babylon are very convincing to blind eyes. So I think he may want you to go to church and do what he can not seem to do himself, pick out the errors that he cannot see. Now I think he is looking for an easy way to sort this out? He wants you to do it for him.

Your father has to face reality, the truth does not come easy. If he wants to know what is truth, it is not by you critiquing a sermon for him, he needs to "study to show yourself approved" (2Tim 2:15). You have presented to him some truths of Scripture that have intrigied him, now he needs to study and find the truth for himself. You can help him, but you can not do it for him. Just wanted to offer my opinion, but that's all it is, just an opinion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

I'm still considering going for my dad's sake but I know I wouldn't feel right pointing out the errors and judging.
With that said, not sure if I'll do it.

I gave him some cd's of rays audio's.
Not sure if he is listening to them.

Thanks everyone on your comments.
The story continues.........

Antaiwan

[Dave in Tenn]

Antaiwan, I don't want to steer you one way or the other, but offer another perspective.  I understand you to mean when you say you're "still considering going for my dad's sake" that you think there might be an opportunity to 'expose those that contradict' when the contradiction is still warm.

Reading in Acts, when Paul visited a new city, one of the first things he did was go to the synagogue.  Of course, he didn't go there to enjoy a nice service, but to preach and to contend.  I know that YOU know you're not Paul and that any 'preaching' you may be allowed to do would just be for your Dad.  I know may not feel quite equipped to handle it.  If that's the truth, then that's the way it is, and no amount of cheer-leading will change that.  

But consider the example.  There's no reason for you to feel 'wrong' about pointing out errors.  You've been asked to do so!  Even if that invitation is a subterfuge, it exists.  Nobody has invited me to do anything close to that.

I'm assuming this is an open-ended invitation.  That gives you some breathing room.  You'll do what's right.    

[Shawn Fainn]

I was reading Ray's 'Unequally Yoked' page (http://bible-truths.com/yoked.htm), and even though you weren't bid to attend a 'feast', I think this Scripture applies in a spiritual sense:

1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

To me, that says "Go, take notes, then critique afterwards ". I probably wouldn't attempt "teaching in the synagogue" until I was very well prepared and led by the Spirit to do so.

Just my 2 cents..

[cjwood]

hi dear brother antaiwan.  all i can add is to seek His guidance in this situation and He will surely take you where He has willed you to go.  that is comforting when you realize our Father's great love for each of us.  He will lead your steps, although you don't where it is He is taking you.  take heart in knowing that He knows.  if it is caused that you attend a service with your dad, whatever happens after that is of Him, and if you are to speak to anyone, including your dad, He will give you the works to speak through His spirit within you.  my daddy died right before i was led to bibletruths. i could have spoken to him about the heresy in the churches.  he may not have agreed, but he would have listened.     my mother thinks i have lost it whenever she talks to me about not having a 'church home'.  oh well.  it too is of His doing for His pleasure, and to bring us each into His image. 

claudia

[octoberose]

 Antaiwan,
I hope you don't mind me adding to the post. What I hear from you is a son trying to honor and love his father while wrestling with a church that he finds woefully misled. Unlike many of our friends on this site, I don't really wrestle with this one. I'm a chaplains wife and part of what I do every week to honor my husband is attend services with him. But I have found many opportunities to speak out, though I try very hard to not be contentous with people. I'd be surprised if the majority of us from this site were not once entrenched in the teachings of the 'main stream' church. Where else will be find others who sincerely have a heart for God, but they, just as I was, are blinded by what is right in front of them?  They pray for God's mercy when family members have died, but they are scared that their loved one had no walk with the Lord and will go to hell. Many of these people will want to know the Truth! And frankly, for me to despise them when I was them seems very wrong, judgmental.  I am still making my way in this. My hope and my heart is that my husband will one day agree to a home church after the understanding he has now grows some more. But for now I can tell you that the year I've spent here in this fellowship has been the most fulfilling, important spiritual year of my life. I truly want that for others.

[markn902]

i would...(if it were me  )
Pray to God and ask for help. ask him to see the intentions of your heart and the love you have for your father and ask him to be with you as you go to church with your father. ..then relax and go His will WILL be done 

[daywalker]

Hey Guys,

My father has ask me on numerous occasions to attend his church and just listen and point out errors when they come up.
My first thought was, "this is a set up".
But, I think my dad is trying to get me back in the church to tell them the things I've told him.
I probably would but the judge and jury are still out on whether or not he believes what I'm telling him.

He wants me to sit through one service to judge what I hear.
When I ask him why, he really doesn't give an anwser.

I mean, if I show him from scriptures that a few things are off what would it mean to him?
I have a feeling it wouldn't mean anything.

Right now, I'm unsure of his intentions for wanting me to do this.
I'm even thinking of telling him to record the service and give me the tape.
Which is much better than having to sit through service!

Has this ever come up in any of you all families?

Thanks
Antaiwan

For about a 5-week period, my mom took detailed notes during Sunday School and/or Worship Service, and emailed them to me. I read through, critiqued them, then sent them back to her. This seemed to help her a ton. Namely, she had always had a hard time with the Rapture theory. I would explain it to her, then show her the verses that prove it wasn't true, then she would understand, momentarily, then later be confused again. But after doing a 14-page critique on a Rapture study she sent to me, she finally was convinced. I can recall the enthusiasm in her voice when she called me and said, "Ya! You are right!"

After that, I did a few more critiques for her, then she stopped sending me them. I haven't asked her why, but there have been some extreme differences in the way she acts (as I've been told by my sister, since I don't live with them any more). My mom still goes to church, but not every Sunday (as she used to); and when she does she normally only goes to Sunday School. Also, she doesn't try to force my sister to go anymore or give her a hard time when she says no (this is a drastic change in my mom who used to act as a general on Sunday mornings, ordering everyone to get ready for Church).

During a few conversations with her about church, she has confessed to me that she mainly goes for the fellowship with her friends. Which is understandable, considering that she's been a single mother most her life.

Anyway, I kinda enjoyed doing those critics, and I found it encouraging that I was able to see the faults in what my old church was teaching and be able to clearly and concisely and scripturally dismiss them. It also increased my desire to keep studying...

though, I must admit, I don't think I'm ready to walk into 'the lion's den' either... 


Christopher 

[Akira329]

Chris thanks for that story!
Thanks to everyone else for some advice on the matter.

Chris your method seems pretty good but takes some work on your mothers part. A part I don't think my dad will do.
I still haven't discuss the matter with him yet.

History also keeps me from doing this. In the past if my dad had a disagreement with some thing about the church he would just find a new church. They were never doctrinal issues though.
There are some things doctrinal wise he doesn't agree with now but still chooses to stay.
I want him to leave.
I also feel like if he does leave he wouldn't know what to do with his life. Church gives people purpose in life to live for it not away from it.

Just all these things running through my mind......

I'm still working through all this.
Thanks guys!

Antaiwan

[daywalker]

Chris thanks for that story!
Thanks to everyone else for some advice on the matter.

Chris your method seems pretty good but takes some work on your mothers part. A part I don't think my dad will do.
I still haven't discuss the matter with him yet.

History also keeps me from doing this. In the past if my dad had a disagreement with some thing about the church he would just find a new church. They were never doctrinal issues though.
There are some things doctrinal wise he doesn't agree with now but still chooses to stay.
I want him to leave.
I also feel like if he does leave he wouldn't know what to do with his life. Church gives people purpose in life to live for it not away from it.

Just all these things running through my mind......

I'm still working through all this.
Thanks guys!

Antaiwan

I totally feel ya, man! I want my mom to leave her church too, but I know she won't (at least, not for awhile). It's more the fellowship that she wants I know, but still being there, hearing their teachings only continues to confuse her and I truly believe that she'd be better off mentally and spiritually if she didn't go.

For awhile I tried to push my mom to leave, but I think that kinda backfired so I stopped. I've been praying hard for God to draw her out but so far His answer has been "not yet". I don't know why, but I do my best to trust His judgment. When we have our talks, I share with her what I've learned, and I try to do it in a way so that it doesn't appear that I'm "beating up" her church, yet at the same time showing her the wrongs in what they tell her.

Anyway, obviously, you know your father better than me or anyone here, so you'd know better how to handle your situation. The best advice I can give is that you continue to pray to God for wisdom and the ability to discern how to react in whatever situation He puts you in, so that you know you're doing all you can to help him. Only God can open your dad's mind and heart to listen to what you say... I know you know this already, just saying.

God be with you, bro.

Christopher 


(And let's keep in mind, God could actually be testing you, rather than working on your dad at this time)