Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[nightmare sasuke]

"And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna" (Mat 10:28, Rotherham)!

The psuche is the conscious being, the sensation of living, the combination of body and spirit. If someone kills another human, they separate the body from the spirit, thus killing the human, who IS a living soul. However, Jesus says man cannot kill a living soul. I don't get it.

How can man not kill the sensation?

[Chris R]

This is from Ray's letter to John Hagee,
Hope it helps


"And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."

Jesus said not to fear those who can "kill," but rather fear Him [Jesus Christ] who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna. The first part of the verse is man's operation, but the second part of the verse is God's. Men have no jurisdiction over the soul. All they can do is kill the body. But God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

Those who teach annihilation rather than eternal punishment use this verse to show that when God destroys, the soul is irretrievable. This, however, is not true. "Destroy" comes from the Greek word Apollumi = FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE, that is, to "lose." The disciples were afraid that they would perish [apollumi] by drowning (Mk. 4:38). The sheep was lost [apollumi] by straying (Lk 15:4). We may destroy [apollumi] a weak saint by our knowledge (I Cor. 8:11). And Christ destroys [apollumi] both body and soul in Gehenna. Never does the Greek word apollumi mean annihilation! Besides destruction is the prelude to SALVATION! All we like sheep have gone astray. To be "lost" is the same Greek word used for "destroy." So it is axiomatic that if an apollumi [LOST] sheep can be SAVED, then certainly an apollumi [DESTROYED] soul can be saved also. Believe God's Word, not man's doctrines.

Have we forgotten Sodom? "And thou, Capernaum, which are exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to the unseen [hades]; for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." And, therefore, it shall be " ... more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee" (Matt. 11:23-24). All it takes is a few miracles from God and He can save anyone-everyone It is so sad that most Christian Clergy don't believe this. I'll give you all the Scriptural proof you need at the end of this letter to show that God Almighty is going to save all His creatures-under the earth, on the earth, and throughout the entirety of the universe-mortals and messengers, sinners and saints, demons and angels-all (Phil. 2:10)!

[Lightseeker]

I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.

Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?

[Craig]

I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.

Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?

Light, the key word here is "living soul"  Hope this helps.  Ray maybe needs to make that clearer.

Craig

[orion77]

I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.

Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?

Looks like a typo mistake.  I think Ray means to say, the body (flesh), returns to the dust, ground, hades, the grave.  Once the spirit returns to God, it's no longer a soul, but only a body of dust which returns to the ground.

Gary

[Lightseeker]

Craig,

Thanks for your quick response.   But, as I look at Genesis I see the Heb. words chay nephesh which were translated living soul 7 other times.  And this is my main problem...in those '8 total number of times' it's translated as "living creature" 7 times, but only once is it translated as "living soul" in Gen 2:7.  

Also, in the following two verses ""of all flesh"" is included along with "living soul/creature chay/nepheshl" so if the soul is united flesh and spirit as per my first post's question??...I hope you can see my dilemma understanding this teaching.

GEN 9:15  And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16  And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

If you/others here can't help answer this, then clarification from Ray may be indicated as per the new forum rules.  I E-mailed before with no response.  I assumed that his schedule is too busy to answer every question from every person capable of e-mail, and fully understand that.  That's why I've always asked questions here.  Questions which I felt were within the former Rules of the forum.  But admittedly they were questions based upon my present perspective concerning things which were being discussed. 

I honestly don't know yet, who the new rules will allow to stay anymore, myself included.  I do believe that I have not been here   seeking 'to win'...I feel I've been seeking 'the truth'.  And I would hope that motivation would be allowed in any 'Christian' forum.  Though I understand the burden you all have as moderators.  It is truly a formidable task anywhere, but probably more so here. 

Gary,

I was about to post and saw your 'note' had been added.  Thanks for the response.  But until that 'clarification' is confirmed I guess my question, posed above, is still a worthy one.

[Craig]

I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.

Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?

Answer from Ray


Dear Forum:
 
 Unfortunately sometimes when speaking we need to make reference to something as if it at a certain location, or has gone to a certain location, or has been retruned from a certain location, when in fact, IT DIDN'T GO OR COME FROM ANYWHERE.
 
"But God will redeem my soul FROM the power of the grave [Heb: sheol]..." (Psalm 49:15).
"You will not leave My soul IN hell [Gk: hades--unseen, imperceptible]..." (Acts 2:27).
 
Obviously if David's soul could comr "from" then it could also go "to" sheol.
If Christ's soul was "in" hell, then it must have gone "to" hell unless it was always there.
 
But sheol and sheol are NOT PLACES, but rather a realm or condition.  I used the analogy of a TV to represent the human components:  The console or box is the body, the electricty is the spirit, and the picture on the screen is the soul.  Pull the plug and where does the picture "GO?"  It doesn't technically go or more or change locations at all--it DISAPPEARS at the same place it was once present. You can heat or cool a piece of metal at the same location and never move it.  It changes dramatically, but it does "go anywhere."
 
When a physical body and a spirit are combined we have "soul"--sentient conscieousness. When we separate the body from the spirit this consciousness is no longer there. Well, where did it "GO?"  We "say," although it is not technically true, but we say that it "went" to hades (or in Hebrew sheol), but in reality it didn't go anywhere. It just "bacame" imperceptible, and this imperception of the consciousness of man is traditionally in Hebrew said to go to "sheol--the unseen" or in Greek to "hades--the unseen."
 
I used to have a piece of transpart yellow and blue thin plastic.  Hold them side by side and you had one blue (let's let that color represent the body), and one yellow (let's let that one represent the spirit).  Now then we have only TWO pieces and TWO colors. But, slide the yellow plastic half way over the blue plastic and we have yellow on one side (spirit), and blue on the other side (body) AND GREEN in the center (soul).  Slide them apart and we are back to but two colors, yellow and blue--spirit and body.  WHERE did the green (soul) "go?"
 
It didn't "go" anywhere, it merely ceased to exist. So in that sense it went to the "unseen" or "imperceptible," as that is what hades and sheol mean.
God be with you,
Ray
 
PS  At resurrection God will united "YOUR" spirit to a new body, and the result with be the same "you" that died, but now you will be a living soul with a spiritual body that can never die.

[nightmare sasuke]

I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.

Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?

I think sheol (the unseen) is the state of the soul being unconscious, more so than a place.

[nightmare sasuke]

I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.

Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?

Answer from Ray


Dear Forum:
 
 Unfortunately sometimes when speaking we need to make reference to something as if it at a certain location, or has gone to a certain location, or has been retruned from a certain location, when in fact, IT DIDN'T GO OR COME FROM ANYWHERE.
 
"But God will redeem my soul FROM the power of the grave [Heb: sheol]..." (Psalm 49:15).
"You will not leave My soul IN hell [Gk: hades--unseen, imperceptible]..." (Acts 2:27).
 
Obviously if David's soul could comr "from" then it could also go "to" sheol.
If Christ's soul was "in" hell, then it must have gone "to" hell unless it was always there.
 
But sheol and sheol are NOT PLACES, but rather a realm or condition.  I used the analogy of a TV to represent the human components:  The console or box is the body, the electricty is the spirit, and the picture on the screen is the soul.  Pull the plug and where does the picture "GO?"  It doesn't technically go or more or change locations at all--it DISAPPEARS at the same place it was once present. You can heat or cool a piece of metal at the same location and never move it.  It changes dramatically, but it does "go anywhere."
 
When a physical body and a spirit are combined we have "soul"--sentient conscieousness. When we separate the body from the spirit this consciousness is no longer there. Well, where did it "GO?"  We "say," although it is not technically true, but we say that it "went" to hades (or in Hebrew sheol), but in reality it didn't go anywhere. It just "bacame" imperceptible, and this imperception of the consciousness of man is traditionally in Hebrew said to go to "sheol--the unseen" or in Greek to "hades--the unseen."
 
I used to have a piece of transpart yellow and blue thin plastic.  Hold them side by side and you had one blue (let's let that color represent the body), and one yellow (let's let that one represent the spirit).  Now then we have only TWO pieces and TWO colors. But, slide the yellow plastic half way over the blue plastic and we have yellow on one side (spirit), and blue on the other side (body) AND GREEN in the center (soul).  Slide them apart and we are back to but two colors, yellow and blue--spirit and body.  WHERE did the green (soul) "go?"
 
It didn't "go" anywhere, it merely ceased to exist. So in that sense it went to the "unseen" or "imperceptible," as that is what hades and sheol mean.
God be with you,
Ray
 
PS  At resurrection God will united "YOUR" spirit to a new body, and the result with be the same "you" that died, but now you will be a living soul with a spiritual body that can never die.

That didn't really answer my question.

Can you not kill a nephesh by breaking the bond between body and spirit? If so, then how come Jesus says only God has the power to kill both soul and body in gehenna?

Last time I checked, a nephesh is a conscious being, and can be killed.

Is there a difference between killing a nephesh and separating body and spirit or are they the same? I would think if you made a "living soul" no longer "living" then you have killed the "living soul."

After all, it is said the "SOUL" that sins will die. Yet, Jesus is saying man has not the power to kill our "souls." I don't get it.

[hillsbororiver]

Man only has a temporal power in this age, I believe Jesus was speaking of fearing Him who is eternal and who subjects all things versus fearing them who can only temporarily kill the body/soul.

Remember the Lake of Fire is the second death, no man has any power over whether or not he will be there after the judgement.

Do you think that Jesus was saying don't fear those who can wield death to you now, fear Him who can subject you to the second death?

[nightmare sasuke]

Man only has a temporal power in this age, I believe Jesus was speaking of fearing Him who is eternal and who subjects all things versus fearing them who can only temporarily kill the body/soul.

Remember the Lake of Fire is the second death, no man has any power over whether or not he will be there after the judgement.

Do you think that Jesus was saying don't fear those who can wield death to you now, fear Him who can subject you to the second death?

He didn't say they can wield death to our souls now, though, that's the point! If the nephesh that sins dies, then how come as Jesus said, man cannot kill it?

[hillsbororiver]

Hebrews 9:27 And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.

Do you think these Words have a spiritual implication or just the the physical?

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power but they shall be the priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Christ was speaking of the second death, not the first.

Joe 

[nightmare sasuke]

Hebrews 9:27 And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.

Do you think these Words have a spiritual implication or just the the physical?

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power but they shall be the priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Christ was speaking of the second death, not the first.

Joe 

After resurrection, how will this people have the power to kill our body, but at the same time, not the power to kill our soul?

After resurrection, they can kill our body? They can kill our body with the second death?

[hillsbororiver]

Do not be afraid of the first death (all are appointed to die once), fear Him who has power over the second death (Lake of Fire). These Words are spiritual not literal. No man can send you to, or free you from the second death.

Joe

[chrissiela]

nightmare,

There are two differnt words used there.

I know that it says that man cannot "kill" the soul and I guess this is really what you are asking about, right?

But in the latter part of that verse it changes from "kill" to "destroy" (when it talks about what God is "able" to do to both body and soul). This is the same words used for "perish/ed", "lost" (as in the "lost sheep" that Christ came to save).

Certainly men can "kill" (but cannot "restore", as God can right?).

So I think there is more to that verse than just 'that'. It's not just about "killing".... it is as opposed to "destroying"  


Chrissie

[nightmare sasuke]

Do not be afraid of the first death (all are appointed to die once), fear Him who has power over the second death (Lake of Fire). These Words are spiritual not literal. No man can send you to, or free you from the second death.

Joe

Jesus said that man cannot kill the soul, though. How? When you die the first death (all are appointed to die once) the nephesh dies!

[love_magnified]

No he didn't say "kill" the soul. He said "kill" the body and "appolumi" (destroy or lose) the soul. There is much more implied with the word apollumi than kill which is why it is so fascinating that Jesus used the word kill for one and destroy/lose for the other.

[nightmare sasuke]

nightmare,

There are two differnt words used there.

I know that it says that man cannot "kill" the soul and I guess this is really what you are asking about, right?

But in the latter part of that verse it changes from "kill" to "destroy" (when it talks about what God is "able" to do to both body and soul). This is the same words used for "perish/ed", "lost" (as in the "lost sheep" that Christ came to save).

Certainly men can "kill" (but cannot "restore", as God can right?).

So I think there is more to that verse than just 'that'. It's not just about "killing".... it is as opposed to "destroying"  


Chrissie

However, Jesus "certainly" says "men" cannot "kill" the soul.

[nightmare sasuke]

No he didn't say "kill" the soul. He said "kill" the body and "appolumi" (destroy or lose) the soul. There is much more implied with the word apollumi than kill which is why it is so fascinating that Jesus used the word kill for one and destroy/lose for the other.

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[hillsbororiver]

Rev 21:8  But the fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.