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Author Topic: Dragged vs Seeking  (Read 3693 times)

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HoneyLamb56

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Dragged vs Seeking
« on: November 16, 2010, 02:10:27 PM »

 - Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 - Proverbs 8:17 .....and those who seek me diligently will find me
 - Proverbs 8:35 for whoever finds me finds life and obtains favour from the Lord
 - Proverbs 8:36 .....all those who hate me love death

I know that God does the drawing to himself; so how do I line up these types of veruses?  If God draws, gives us faith etc. then why does it say that it's impossible to please him without faith if He's the one that gives it; why does He say to diligently seek Him if He's the one drawing?  We are all going to die because we all sin but we are all going to be saved in the end so why the warning about death?

I am trying to reread Ray's material but in the meantime maybe someone can offer a condensed explanation of the above or point me to the respective material.  I know the answers are there.

Are there others who read the material and understand but then later when they come upon bible passages things start to get muddy again?  Is it short term memory that I keep losing my perspective?

Wisdom is on my prayer list....so, where are you "wiseguys" -- or girls (lol) !!


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mharrell08

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 02:34:54 PM »

Excerpt from '2nd Letter to Dr. Kennedy' (http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm):

RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE

If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.

A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."

And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)

Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:

"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)

"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)

"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)

"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)

Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:

" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).

Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)

This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.

So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:

 

THE RELATIVE:                                                                                                                              THE ABSOLUTE:

" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7)                                                                                "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)

"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14)                                                                                  "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)

" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15)                                                "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)

" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10)                                           "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)

"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests)                      "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10) (Comparing man with God)


 

One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.

Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."

Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin.
Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."

Even theologians admit that their free will theory is limited. So they have invented "limited free will." They use analogies like a cow on a tether or a fly in a jar or a lion in a cage. Their freedom is limited to the confines of their restraints, but within those confines they are nonetheless, free. Is this true? Is there such a thing as "limited" free will? Or is this just more theological double-talk?

Only in religion do simple words lose their meaning. Let's look at Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary: Page 963, "limited, a. Restricted." Page 682, "free, a. without restriction." So here then is what theologians want us to believe: Man has a will that is restricted without restriction.

Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.

Somebody has been taking William James too seriously. God is not sitting around waiting to see what man will do through his "free will" so that He can then figure out what to do about it. Rather than conclude from the "wisdom of the world" that man has a free will (and thus deny the sovereignty of God), we must conclude that since God is sovereign, man can not and does not have a free will. This is logical, sensible, and lawful. It is Scriptural and it glorifies God.

Theologians condemn scientists for their inability to see beyond the "relative" in our universe. Surely these scientists must see that a God must be behind everything. However, except for rare persons like Dr. Einstein, they can't.



As Ray says above, you have to separate statements that are relative vs statements that are absolute. Read this excerpt and letter to Dr. Kennedy.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 03:50:02 PM »

Hi Honeylamb56

It is constructive that you are presenting your thoughts about Faith.  Keeping in mind that non of us have free will or are in control or in charge of our Spiritual development, here are a few thoughts that come in reply to your question.

Quote
God draws, gives us faith etc. then why does it say that it's impossible to please him without faith

Faith is like a life risk for God. You will kill the Bull for God. You will go to the ends of the earth for God. You will go to your death for God. Growing a garden and giving God the best fruits or baking cookies just perfectly by following the recipe just right, doesn't require any faith.

We have preferences that often take us into experiences of shame and despair. Yet with Faith in God Who is our Maker, we can be pleasing when we fail, pleasing when we try, and pleasing when we succeed all because God loves His Son and as He loves His Son, so too are we loved by God. Knowing that, is part of Faith. 

I guess that is why God gives us the experience of having Faith. We have to learn what is pleasing to God, by living the contrasts.

Blessings to you in your God given interest in the things of His Spirit :)
Arc
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Kat

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 12:11:35 AM »


Hi Honeylamb,

It is true that everything depends on God. We are dependant on God for every breath we take and everything that happens is brought about ultimately by some cause from Him. Most humans have the preception that they are in control of their destiny (free will), as if we are actually in control of what we do and what happens. Now we know we are not in control of anything, however He does bring about things where His hand is rarely seen or felt as having a part in it.

Php 2:12  ...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v. 13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

So as "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure," yet the way He operates is He makes it seem to us that WE must "work out your own salvation," because we are not aware of His workings. Now certainly it is US that must go through all the motions and doing, when He begins to drag us to Him, we must actually do it. So because of circumstances brought about by Him, WE have the desire and seek Him. I feel like it is those actions that we go through that these truths are actually confirmed within us, because we have 'worked it out' or do it, by living it.

Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

"Without faith it is impossible to please Him"... the is an absolute truth!  He tells us we must "diligently seek Him"... that is an absolute truth too! God will bring it to pass for all of humanity eventually.

Pro 8:36  ...All those who hate me (wisdom) love death."

This passage is speaking of wisdom. "...wisdom gives life to those who have it" (Ecc 7:12). So to not have wisdom...

Pro 10:21  The lips of the righteous feed many,
       But fools die for lack of wisdom.

Hope that helps a little.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Roy Martin

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 08:30:52 AM »

That was just awesome what Ray said about; RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE.

Roy
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onelovedread

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 04:09:46 PM »

Not sure this exactly addresses your questions but you may find comfort in this email response from Ray.

[Ray Replies]

Dear Randy:
We have all felt like you at times in our lives. I have said that before we ever come to truly love God, we first go through a stage where we HATE God.  It's okay, God understands.
When God calls someone to come out of this world and into His Truth, it is a struggle all the way.  It never gets "easy." God doesn't want it to get easy. We are in training for something big ... really BIG!  We are to be born into the very Family of God as SONS!  We are destined to RULE THE WORLD.  Our goal is to judge and SAVE ALL MANKIND.  This training for this job is a little harder than ranger training in the Army. But then again, the rewards and responsibilities are much greater as well.
God knows you state and your state of mind every second of the day. It is God HIMSELF who has put you in the predicaments that you find yourself. And that is part of the reason you sometimes hate God. 
Not to fear -- God is on your side even if it appears at times that He is not.
Take ALL of your burdens to God. He will see your through.
Sincerely,
Ray
Be sure you read the installments of The Lake of Fire. It will help you a lot.

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Nan

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 07:49:12 PM »

Are there others who read the material and understand but then later when they come upon bible passages things start to get muddy again?  Is it short term memory that I keep losing my perspective

Yes. i keep going back to Ray's papers.
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daywalker

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 09:02:10 PM »

Are there others who read the material and understand but then later when they come upon bible passages things start to get muddy again?  Is it short term memory that I keep losing my perspective

Yes. i keep going back to Ray's papers.


Yes.

Matthew 13:18 "You, then, hear the parable of the sowing.
19 At everyone hearing the word of the kingdom and not understanding, coming is the wicked one and snatching what has been sown in his heart. This is he who is being sown beside the road.
20 Yet he who is being sown on the rocky places, this is he who is hearing the word and straightway with joy is getting it,
21 yet has no root in himself, but is temporary. Now at the coming of affliction or persecution because of the word, straightway he is snared.

22 Now he who is being sown in the thorns, this is he who is hearing the word, and the worry of this eon and the seduction of riches are stifling the word, and it is becoming unfruitful.
23 Now he who is being sown on the ideal earth, this is he who is hearing the word and understanding, who by all means is bearing fruit, and is producing; these indeed, a hundred, yet these sixty, yet these thirtyfold."



There have been people who've come and gone from this forum. Doesn't mean that everyone of them turned back to Babylon; but I'm sure some of them did.
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G. Driggs

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 03:21:14 AM »

Proverbs are to the Old Testament what parables are to the New Testament. They are riddles, near stories and fictitious narratives. They are never literally true, but always spiritually true.

Proverb

H2420

חידה
chı̂ydâh
khee-daw'
From H2330; a puzzle; hence a trick, conundrum, sententious maxim: - dark saying (sentence, speech), hard question, proverb, riddle.

Parable

G3850

παραβολή
parabolē
par-ab-ol-ay'
From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

This is just something I remind myself of whenever I come across a proverb or parable. Hope it helps you too.

G.Driggs
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 03:25:01 AM »

 Excellent study G.Driggs! 8)

I recall that Ray expounds that the entire Bible is a Parable 8)

Blessings to you brother
Arc
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G. Driggs

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 03:29:09 AM »

Quote from: Arcturus
I recall that Ray expounds that the entire Bible is a Parable Cool

Same exact thoughts crossed my mind as I posted. ;D Nice addition Arc.

Blessings back to you

G.Driggs
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Joel

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 10:28:03 PM »

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Romans 11:33-36
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of him, and through him , and to him, are all things: to whom be the glory for ever. Amen.
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aktikt

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2010, 01:28:18 PM »

This email from Ray is priceless. 

Where else could you go to get an answer like this?  No where.  Everyone else, it seems, gives wisdom like Job's friends in the book of Job.

"God knows you state and your state of mind every second of the day. It is God HIMSELF who has put you in the predicaments that you find yourself. And that is part of the reason you sometimes hate God." ...

And then this:
"Not to fear -- God is on your side even if it appears at times that He is not."

Gold.
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Shakespeare-There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 01:41:02 AM »

Hello Honey,

I think my simple perspective might help you. We are told that all good things are from God and that no man can do any good on his own. That includes seeking God as part of this good act that we are incapable of. Yet we are told we should seek God! So what gives?

Well I think it was ray and I could be wrong, but I believe he once gave the analogy that we humans, are like the earth itself. The planet earth I mean. (Dust of the earth right?) Now keep in mind this is an analogy, a metaphor.

So much like the planet earth, we are dark. Dark by nature is the planet, correct? Well when the Sun rolls along it gives the earth light and illuminates all dark places on its surface. Well what happens if you take away that light? The planet goes dark again. It's the same thing for us humans. We are dark on our own, their is no good thing in us but in comes God and voila! We are filled with light BUT God likes to teach us things so that we can grow so sometimes He draws back and we again become dark much like the planet earth because the planet itself produces no light, its ALL from the SUN! So we human likewise relly ENTIRELY on GOD! Only a foolish man would think that his righteous acts are from himself but the wise know it is all God.

So when we do something good, we can't claim it as our own works for that very reason. As Jesus said; Why do you call me good? There is none good save GOD!" So true eh?


Now what about when we do something wrong? Why is it we get blamed for doing something bad if God is the reason we are in this circumstance being tempted by satan and tempted by our own carnalness that HE CREATED US WITH from teh start? Isn't it HIS responsibilty and shouldn't our bad acts be HIS fault? Well see, this si where Him dying for the sins of the world comes into play. Did you die for the sins of the world? Nope! Christ did! SO GOD IS taking responsbility for creating man with a very weak heart and the reason YOU are accountable for when you do something bad is because IN THAT MOMENT that you do this act you soon regret, AT THAT VERY MOMENT,  YOU WANT to do it! God didn't have to FORCE you to do it, YOU VOLUNTEERED! Hence why we are sinning machiens without GODS LIGHT, HIS SPIRIT, HIS GRACE, HIS FAITH! The circumstances you find yourself in have CAUSED You into WANTING to do whats wrong [in God's eyes.] So therefor YOU are accountable but don't worry, He takes responsibility by saving you and all of us, in the end! Because He is growing us into something we canot even begin to imagine! Something amazing! :)

Does that help? Sorry got long winded >.> LOL

Much love to you in Christ,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

grapehound

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Re: Dragged vs Seeking
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2010, 09:09:26 AM »

Hey Aktikt,
You sure have identified a nugget there.
Pure Gold.

Thanks Bro'
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