Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[octoberose]

Maybe you can help me with something (you all almost always have answers I can't see). I was in Bible study the other day and a little while before I had told the leader that dead people are dead until the resurrection, which she listened to without any negativity. Then in our class someone brought up Revelations 1:7 which says, "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him."  Well, I don't know exactly what to think of this and I had never given it any thought before. Of course, we ALL have pierced him, but in the context of these verses it seems they are speaking of the people who actually put him on the cross. I had always envisioned Jesus returning and people rise from the dead- but this shows him coming in the clouds, not yet here, and the dead that pierced him are seeing him right then. Am I reading into this something that is not here?
The reference in my NIV takes me to Daniel 7:13. It's a beautiful passage, and once again says that ALL nations and peoples of every language worshipped him. Sounds like salvation for all to me!
 

[G. Driggs]

We know from Ray's expounding of the Scriptures that everything in Revelation is signified (to make known by signs and symbols), so maybe that verse isn't literal. No doubt all will see Him, but that verse does not say when. We need at least two witnesses to establish and or explain a truth.

Here is a short copy and paste from:

'Church Heresy Came Long Before Bible Errors'
[The Lake of Fire - PART VII THE SEVEN SYMBOLIC CHURCHES OF REVELATION]

@ http://www.bible-truths.com/lake7.html

Nowhere in Revelation does it say that every prophecy in the book will be fulfilled, quickly in any one generation—either past, present, or future. It is not just in one end-time generation that Revelation is fulfilled quickly! NO! It is fulfilled "quickly" in each and every person who "READS AND UNDERSTANDS" this prophecy, through all generations, even though there is an eventual culmination at the lake of fire and final white throne judgment.
------------------------------

I have also heard Ray say something like this book was only for God's Elect to understand at this time. Also if Jesus is living His life in you or me then everything written in Revelation has to happen in our lives. We will pretty much experience every prophecy written therein, through judgment now or later.

Sincerely hope this helps

G.Driggs

[Deborah-Leigh]

Excellent information G.Driggs!

Hi Octoberose

You are exactly correct. The two Scriptures you present do witness the same event together. They prophesy of a time when Christ’s Reign shall cover the earth.

The confirmation of this is in the next verse of Daniel:

Dan 7:14  And to Him is given Dominion, and Glory, and a Kingdom, and ALL peoples, nations, and languages do serve Him, His Dominion is a Dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and His Kingdom that which is not destroyed.

You are seeing correctly. SALVATION IS FOR ALL!     

Blessings dear sister
Deborah

[Kat]

Hi Octoberose,

Christ returns and the Elect will be resurrected and meet/join with Him in the air. They are in the 'first' resurrection, so they come first. But there is also a resurrection of all the dead back to life, at that time.

Acts 24:15  I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
(All these Scriptures speak of one resurrection Mat 22:31; Act 17:32; Act 23:6; Act 24:21; 1Co 15:12, 13, 21, 42; Heb 6:2)

There is "a resurrection" or one resurrection for both, "the just and unjust." So Christ first collects His Elect/Saints and then continues to earth and where else would the resurected physical people have been placed than on the physcial earth and so "every eye will see Him," and He and the Saints will rule over these nations.

This is from the 'Rapture' paper and it should help your understandng on this.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ---------------

We can learn something remarkable from the way that God uses the word "meet" in this Scripture.

"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thes. 4:17).

In this verse as in three others, God uses the Greek word apatesis which is translated "to meet." It is distinguished from a half dozen other Greek words which are variously translated, "meet,’ "meet with," "meeting," "meeting with," etc. The Greek word apatesis, is, however, used only three other times.
v

Now I am almost sure that I can hear faint protests in the distance from objecting rapturists. Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
v

Let us be clear, that the "day of the Lord" is the time period of Christ’s return to this earth to punish Babylon the Great and to pour out His righteous indignation on her (and on those nations who follow and worship her) for her evil crimes of inhumanity and blasphemy.
v

"... even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the PRESENCE of the Son of Mankind" (Matt. 24:27).

Nothing is as bright as lightning--not even the sun. No one will know when our Lord comes, but when He appears, everyone on earth will know!

"... then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much GLORY"! (Mat. 24:30).

"Power," "Glory," and "LIGHTNING" have no fellowship with "darkness," "evil" and "gloom"!
v

Jesus said He was going to His Father IN HEAVEN to prepare a place for His apostles. Peter said that Christ,

"... regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead, for the enjoyment of an allotment incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, KEPT IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU ..." (I Pet. 1:4-5).

And yet we know that Christ brings these treasures BACK TO EARTH.

Why do we think it is any different for the Gentiles? It is not different.

"... we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, IN THE HEAVENS." (II Cor. 5:1).

But are we unlike the Jews in that we really GO to heaven to receive our treasures? NO! Next verse: "For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is OUT of heaven ..."

There are so many Scriptures like this that contradict the rapture theory. Look at this one,

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; but the EARTH hath He given to the children of men" (Psalm 115:6). One more, "... for we are your glorying (even as you also are ours) in THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS" (II Cor. 1:14).

Not in the "rapture," but in "the day of our Lord."
v

When Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth, He brings the place of authority or rulership that He has prepared for the apostles with Him so that "... where I am, YOU ALSO MAY BE" (John 14:3). During Christ’s reign on earth His apostles will be WITH THE LORD.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lauriellen]

kat, i am totally confused. i thought the rest of the dead 'lived not' until the thousand years were finished, not ressurected at the second coming?

[lauriellen]

OMG! OMG! you have got to be KIDDING ME...so ALL that have EVER LIVED will be ressurected at the second comming of Jesus?!? i thought missing out on the 'kingdom' (eonian extermination) was the punishment of the wicked? i read thru all this material here and i completely missed this truth or just got it wrong....How could i have been so blind on this subject? the more i learn, the more i realize i don't know....

[AwesomeSavior]

Seems like Planet Earth is gonna be extremely crowded on Resurrection Day?

[Kat]

Hi Lauriellen,

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
v. 9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLV)

2Th 1:8 In a fiery flame; holding forth vengeance—against them that refuse to know God, and them who decline to hearken unto the glad-message of our Lord Jesus,
v. 9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

2Th 1:8  in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
v. 9  who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)

The wicked do not enter the kingdom at Christ's return, they are case into the Lake of fire/judgement, this is as Rotherham puts it "age-abiding destruction," where as CLV has it "eonian extermination." But Jesus explains how He will separate His sheep from the goats. The goats will go to destruction/judgment/correction and His sheep will enter the kingdom.

Mat 25:46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

Ray has explained the judgment and eonian destruction. Here are a few place he speakes of this and see if it makes more sense now.


http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html ----------------------

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell [the Greek is "gehenna" NOT hell. It is ‘gehenna fire,’ Mat. 5:22, not ‘hell fire’]" (Matt. 10:28).

Is there no salvation from this "destruction" in gehenna fire? Notice that they are not "eternally lost" in gehenna fire, but they are "DESTROYED" in gehenna fire. Their condition is that of being DESTROYED. This is not a hopeless condition or even our own Lord would have been put into a hopeless condition.
v

Notice what Job said with relation to being "destroyed":

"Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet Thou dost DESTROY me" (Job 10:.

Yet Job knew that God would yet save him. In Jeremiah 18 God tells Jeremiah to go down to the Potter’s house and observe him at work. Jeremiah sees the potter destroy a marred work in his hand and refashion it into something useful. This we learn is an analogy of how God would "destroy" Judah (Ver. 7), and yet save him in the end. God will refashion all of marred (destroyed) mankind into glorious sons of God!


http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm --------------------

It is a matter of timing. All Scriptures that speak of those who go the "broad way into destruction," "perish in their sins," etc., are all speaking of the NOW, this lifetime. Most of humanity have not even heard the name of Jesus Christ in THIS lifetime, THEIR lifetime.

There is coming a resurrection to REWARDS, and a second resurrection to JUDGMENT. It is in the resurrection to judgment that most of humanity will be saved. Notice what happens when the whole world is raised to God's judgments:

"When Thy Judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants OF THE WORLD will learn RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).

And trust me, God will not torture the "righteous" in an eternal hellhole of fire.

Actually there are HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of Scriptures that point to the Salvation of ALL. I only have time and space in my papers to cover a couple dozen of them.

"Not inheriting the Kingdom of God" has absolutely nothing to do with not ever being saved. Only the CHOSEN FEW will inherit the Kingdom of God, and will rule and reign with Jesus Christ. But ALL will receive salvation in the judgment.

Be sure to read my series on "The Lake of Fire." Nearly every installment gives proof of the fact that only the FEW inherit the Kingdom, while ALL will receive salvation in the Judgment.

God be with you,

Ray

[lauriellen]

Prophecies of Revelation

----------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3912.msg29876.html#msg29876

Dear Jay:
    The answer to your question will demolish the chronology of accepted eschatology according to the Christian Church and many other cults. This subject, however, is huge and cannot be answered in a short email. Besides, when I teach it I want to teach it in context with the accompanying prophecies. The answer to your question solves many enigmas in the Scriptures and the book of Revelation.  Some of this is being covered in Part D of my HELL series. The first 20 pages or so should be posted next week. Sorry, but it would take me days to cover this subject. Hope you understand.
    
God be with you,

Ray


does anyone know if Ray ever did a paper on the correct chronology of eschatology that i could study? if not, could anyone direct me to any info
that lines up with Rays teachings in a PM? thanks

[mharrell08]

does anyone know if Ray ever did a paper on the correct chronology of eschatology that i could study? if not, could anyone direct me to any info
that lines up with Rays teachings in a PM? thanks

The church teaches that the prophecies from the Book of Revelation only happen at the end of the age. This is incorrect, as Ray has shown from the scriptures that the symbols of Revelation pertain to 'what is, what was, and what is to come'.

Throughout the LOF series, you can find Ray's teachings on the seven churches, the Beast rising out of the sea, Judgment, etc.

This is my favorite email reply from Ray concerning the book of Revelation and all the 'end time' studies that are out in the world. (This is not a snipe at you Lauriellen, just what I believe a good perspective to have about these things):


----------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1603.msg13425.html#msg13425

Dear Bruce:

What I personally believe doesn't amount to an ant hill. What we need to know is what God believes.  Let me give you a LAW that you can live with:  "If the Church teaches it, it is probably not true."  Remember that.  Jesus didn't say that "faith would increase" before He came.  Jesus asked if there would be ANY FAITH AT ALL when He returned.  I wish that all of you could come to our September Conference in Mobile, as I am going to really hammer home what the Bible says is really important for us to know and do.  Too many people are interested in prophecy and all for the wrong reasons.  If you can come to understand what it is that God desires of us, we don't need to care one iota as to when the "end" is coming. I virtually never ever think or talk or teach about WHEN the end of this age is, but rather WHAT it is that we need to be doing before it comes, and what we will be doing after Christ returns.

God be with you,

Ray


Marques

[lauriellen]

thanks marques, i know you are not 'sniping' me personally, and my point is not to understand 'when' the end or second comming will happen....i guess i have just really misunderstood the 'sequence' of events.  kat stated above  "There is "a resurrection" or one resurrection for both, "the just and unjust." " and she stated that " Christ returns and the Elect will be resurrected and meet/join with Him in the air. They are in the 'first' resurrection, so they come first. But there is also a resurrection of all the dead back to life, at that time. " its the 'AT THAT TIME"  that has me confused.  i think i understand  'WHAT' is going to happen, i just don't think i understand the 'WHEN' or 'chronology' of what is going to happen.
ray states in LOF 16A page 23 "Remember there are TWO resurrections--One to life with Christ in His Kingdom, and Another to the great white throne/lake of fire/second death, Judgement."   i understood this to mean TWO seperate judgements at two different times. 

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

this scripture seems to compliment ray's statement of 2 resurrections ('first indicates a second to follow) with a time period of 1000 years in between.

this doesn't seem to agree with what Kat stated above. I am not saying Kat is wrong, i just want to make sure i understand this right. I have never read or heard taught that ALL OF THE DEAD would be resurrected at the second comming. I had always understood that the rest of the dead would not be ressurected until a later time at the white throne judgement.
please bare with me as i try to learn this. thanks

[mharrell08]

thanks marques, i know you are not 'sniping' me personally, and my point is not to understand 'when' the end or second comming will happen....i guess i have just really misunderstood the 'sequence' of events.  kat stated above  "There is "a resurrection" or one resurrection for both, "the just and unjust." " and she stated that " Christ returns and the Elect will be resurrected and meet/join with Him in the air. They are in the 'first' resurrection, so they come first. But there is also a resurrection of all the dead back to life, at that time. " its the 'AT THAT TIME"  that has me confused.  i think i understand  'WHAT' is going to happen, i just don't think i understand the 'WHEN' or 'chronology' of what is going to happen.
ray states in LOF 16A page 23 "Remember there are TWO resurrections--One to life with Christ in His Kingdom, and Another to the great white throne/lake of fire/second death, Judgement."   i understood this to mean TWO seperate judgements at two different times. 

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

this scripture seems to compliment ray's statement of 2 resurrections ('first indicates a second to follow) with a time period of 1000 years in between.

this doesn't seem to agree with what Kat stated above. I am not saying Kat is wrong, i just want to make sure i understand this right. I have never read or heard taught that ALL OF THE DEAD would be resurrected at the second comming. I had always understood that the rest of the dead would not be ressurected until a later time at the white throne judgement.
please bare with me as i try to learn this. thanks

The scriptures do not state "all" the dead being raised at the same time. We know that salvation comes to each "in his own order".

The point I was attempting to make was about keeping a proper prospective. Knowing how many will be resurrected doesn't change what we need to be doing now.

Ray hasn't taught, in depth, about every aspect concerning the end of this age. That includes the resurrection. The only thing we can give you is speculation, and you don’t want that.


Marques

[Kat]

Hi Lauriellen,

I made assumptions that I can see may not be what Ray teaches. So I will say that I should not have made those speculation. Sorry for any confusion I have created. Boy I have really been putting my foot in my mouth lately 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[G. Driggs]

Remember when Ray taught us what Jesus meant when He said "...you have left your first love".

Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

I just thought it was interesting that that word "first" in Rev. 2:4 is the same word used in Rev 20:5 and 20:6.

G4413
πρῶτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first (G4413) resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (G4413) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So if the word "first" is being used the same way as in Rev 2:4 then it wouldn't be talking about when, but rather the importance of God's Elect being resurrected ready to rule with Him. Remove the spurious part of Rev 20:5 and it makes perfect sense.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I'm not trying to teach, as the definition of the word "first" in them verses says it all. If it wasn't for Ray teaching me about that word, I wouldn't have known it otherwise.

G.Driggs

[octoberose]

Thank you for all the replies. My husband and I have what I think is probably food poisoning for the past couple of days so I've been off the computer. I remembered  tonight I had a question out here and the answers always go in a way I don't expect. Lauriellen,  I too have tired to understand the end times in some kind of orderly fashion. I want an outline, some formula that I can check off. But everything I try to make simple is NOT. Why do I keep thinking a intricate and complex God is anything but Intricate and Complex? Revelations, frankly, unsettles me. I don't see it all, I can barely grasp it in my brain. It maybe should be clear to me that God is not leading me down this path right now- I have other things to do and learn, like obedience, faith, and sacrificial giving to others. I do not, DO NOT, want to be one that the Lord says he never knew.
 By the way, Kat, you are remarkable in every way and when you say something, I listen.