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Author Topic: psalms  (Read 3543 times)

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lostANDfound

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psalms
« on: November 12, 2010, 01:10:24 AM »

i have a question about how to take the psalms of david in light of the fact that at his death he was not converted. as ray points out he wanted his enemies to be killed- and make it bloody!
so here is where i am- do i read them as if all of davids "Lord, make my enemies suffer" type statements are further evidence of his unconverted state, whereas all of his "the Lord will make you strong" type statements are to be counted as true and take them to heart?  if so, is there a simple way of knowing how to sort it out? 
or am i way off base?

EXAMPLE OF "Lord, make my enemies suffer" type statement:

psalm 35:7 Since they hid their net for me without cause
   and without cause dug a pit for me,
8 may ruin overtake them by surprise—
   may the net they hid entangle them,
   may they fall into the pit, to their ruin.
9 Then my soul will rejoice in the LORD
   and delight in his salvation.

EXAMPLE OF "the Lord will make you strong" type statement:

psalm 37:39 The salvation of the righteous comes from the LORD;
   he is their stronghold in time of trouble.
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mrl1970

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Re: psalms
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 02:49:37 AM »

Take these verses into account
Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Those who hide their net and dig a pit in psalm 35:7 shall be entangled in the same net and fall into the same pit in verse 8

This is a prophecy of the White Throne Judgement if i'm not mistaken.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 03:06:51 AM by mrl1970 »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: psalms
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 08:47:00 AM »

That Mercy Scripture is a great Scripture to believe mrl1970  :)

Your question is excellent LostANDfound! :)

The book of Job  presents a large section of dialogue from the friends of Job who came to console Job in his grief and agony. Yet the Lord had this to say of them:
Job 42:7  And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of Me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

The Proverbs, Song of Songs and Ecclesiastics were primarily written by King Solomon who failed to walk in God’s statutes, and execute His judgments, and keep all His commandments.

Non of the OT characters were converted. I think Ray nails it.

If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are. Ref:Truth 8 ~ Twelve God given Truth’s to understand His Word

Blessings
Arc
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 09:16:00 AM by Arcturus »
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G. Driggs

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Re: psalms
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 09:11:00 AM »

What helps me to sort it out is knowing everything written in the Old Testament was written for our admonition. Some of what we read encourages us, and some of what we read warns us not to make the same "mistakes" they made.

1Co 10:6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

It also helps to know none of the OT prophets will be saved without the help of the Elect.

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

It seems the OT prophets knew a little something about God's Elect, and why it had to be the way it was for them.

1Pe 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I was looking for that quote from Ray that Arcturus gave you, and she is right about Ray nailing it.

Hope this helps, or maybe I'm way off and do not understand your question. If so...... forgive me.

G.Driggs

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lostANDfound

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Re: psalms
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 10:21:51 AM »

i am reminded often that i prayed for help in humbling myself.  (sigh)
so mrl1970, are you saying to take everything as true prophecy, but not as an example as HOW we are to think?  in other words we should accept the words as true prophecy but reject the attitude of wishing evil on our enemies?  this is kind of what i was getting at, hope i'm making sense.
and that is a very good quote for me to keep in mind, arc and g.driggs, in more ways than one. 
i feel like a kid walking amoung giants here, so very far to go...and grow.

thanks, vicki
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mharrell08

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Re: psalms
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 11:39:03 AM »

i have a question about how to take the psalms of david in light of the fact that at his death he was not converted. as ray points out he wanted his enemies to be killed- and make it bloody!


It's the old issue of not throwing out the baby with the bath water. This is exactly what spiritual discernment means...'rightly dividing the Word of Truth' [2 Tim 2:15].

The more you read and study, and bring your thoughts and beliefs in line with the Word of God, the more spiritual discernment you will receive. 'Abide in me (Jesus), and I will abide in you' [John 15:4; 1 John 2:24]. One good example is this very true statement from a Pharisee:

Acts 5:38-39  ...now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.

You wouldn't throw out this statement completely just because it came from a Pharisee. But you also wouldn't follow in his footsteps either be denying the gospel. Arcturus gives another good example from the book of Job. That book contains a lot of wisdom...but the 3 friends spoke of things, that while true, were not the issue that Job was dealing with.

Also, in regards to one's enemies (like David spoke of often):

FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12488.0.html

We live in the spirit what Israel sought in the flesh. We are to destroy our enemies as the Israelites were commanded to...but in the spirit, not the flesh. Our Lord tells us who our enemies are:

Matt 5:18-19  ...those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

2 Cor 10:4-5  For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God
(aka spiritual) for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ

1 Cor 9:27  I discipline my body
("those things which proceed out of the heart" - Matt 5:18) and bring it into subjection...


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Kat

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Re: psalms
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 12:46:23 PM »


Hi Vicki,

You have received some very sound reasoning about some of the difficult things in Scripture. ALL Scripture is for our benefit it some way or other.

2Tim 3:16  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
v. 17  that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Remember Scripture does not only have a literal application, some of the hard things spoken of it Scripture are for spiritual eyes to discern. Not all Scripture is instruction on how to live righteously, there are many supposes for the Scripture.

Here is a little I pulled from 'How We Got The Bible.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=5815.0 -------

We are going to look at a couple of Scripture to see there is no question in the minds of the Jews as to what is meant by ‘the Scriptures.’  In Luke 24, here is 2 men on the road to Emmaus, Christ meets up with them and He later makes His identity known. 

But we notice in verse 27 “And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.”  Did they have to say, excuse me Lord, what are you talking about ‘the Prophets’?  What is that?  The ‘Law of Moses’ what are You talking about?  Is that a book or what?  They knew exactly what ‘Moses’ and ‘the Prophets’ were.  They knew!  Everybody knew. 
It doesn’t mention ‘the Psalms’ here and this is a point we want to learn.  That ‘the Psalms’ were also Prophets/prophecies.  It doesn’t need to repeat them, because David was a Prophet as well.  Any time they were directed towards the scripture, there is no explanation needed. 

Acts 17:2  “And according to Paul's custom, he went in to them and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures…”

I don’t suppose he took his own Scriptures, I mean they had them right there in the Synagogues.  So they knew what the Scriptures were.

Act 17:11  Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.

So they knew what the Scripture were, they had them everywhere.  Jesus Christ said these are references to the Word of God - the Law of Moses - the Prophets - the Writings/Psalms.  We don’t need to go back to Moses, Ezra or Nehemiah to know what constitutes the Old Testament Scripture, Jesus Christ Himself told us.  This was common knowledge everywhere. 
v
v
He expounds that beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, Moses was a Prophet.  All writers of the Bible are called Prophets.  David was a Prophet.  Remember that many prophecies of Messiah are in the Psalms, written by David.
v
v
 Luke 24:27 And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself (being the Messiah).

Well many of the Scripture that pertain to Jesus Christ being the Messiah were found in the Psalms. Well guess what? They are prophecy! So we have a whole circle here of ideas, that all go together, because psalms can be prophecy. He showed me all the Scriptures of Christ being the Messiah, according to the Prophets, surely He showed him some of the Psalms. In fact most of the important places where we read about Christ is the Messiah, is in the Psalms. Then of course in a few places, Isaiah 53 and a few others places. But mostly in the Psalms. The Psalms are prophesies, they are considered prophets. 

So Luke says any Scripture that pertaining to Christ, are written by prophets. That has to be Psalms, so Psalms are prophecy. When Asaph sang the 50th Psalms it’s called a prophecy. 

II Tim. 3:16  “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God…” 

ALL Scripture, okay.
One of the definitions of prophecy or prophesying is inspired teaching, singing and writing, it’s prophesying. If it is inspired, it’s prophesying. Prophesying does not mean solely predicting the future. Any inspired teaching, singing or writing is prophesying.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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mrl1970

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Re: psalms
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 08:10:09 PM »

What Kat stated "Remember Scripture does not only have a literal application, some of the hard things spoken of it Scripture are for spiritual eyes to discern."   is what I was trying to help you with. For instance when the OT talks about destruction we know Jesus came to save those who are lost (apollumi -which also means destroyed) as in Luke 19:10
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: psalms
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2010, 06:00:52 AM »


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=5815.0 -------
One of the definitions of prophecy or prophesying is inspired teaching, singing and writing, it’s prophesying. If it is inspired, it’s prophesying. Prophesying does not mean solely predicting the future. Any inspired teaching, singing or writing is prophesying.

We are prophesying here in the BT Forum! ;D 8) We are being inspired to encourage and write inspiring writings that give us a song in our hearts to our God and Creator of all.

Blessings
Arc
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longhorn

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Re: psalms
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2010, 09:01:03 PM »

Matt 4:4  Man Shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.  Every person WILL live out ( by ) every single word in the scriptures.  Like David, You and I at our appointed time, will want our enimies to suffer.

Longhorn
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: psalms
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2010, 03:27:03 AM »



Well said Longhorn!  8)

Blessings brother
Arc
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lostANDfound

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Re: psalms
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2010, 06:23:40 PM »

so you're saying that at our appointed time we'll want our enemies to suffer, and our enemies are :

Matt 5:18-19  ...those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

2 Cor 10:4-5  For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God (aka spiritual) for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ

1 Cor 9:27  I discipline my body ("those things which proceed out of the heart" - Matt 5:18) and bring it into subjection...

i'm not trying to be exasperating here, but everything you're all saying makes sense to me except the part where i'll want my enemies to suffer.  and my enemies are basically the evil thoughts and actions coming from my heart.  i'll want the evil-ness in me to suffer?  it seems more appropriate to think i'll want the evil-ness in me to be destroyed.  am i just getting stuck on a technicality here?

THANKS!

(and i'm thinking of changing my name to lostANDjust-beginning-to-be-found)   :-[

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mmijares

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Re: psalms
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2010, 07:58:42 PM »

Hi LostANDFound!

David was not converted (as Ray taught us).

The Old Testament's morality was not perfect.  We can read scores of them right in the first five books of the Bible.  Only when Christ came we understand the perfect morality.

Knowing and understanding what Christ has said is the BEST WAY "to sort it out."

-Mij
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judith collier

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Re: psalms
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2010, 12:29:58 AM »

Yrs.ago I used to pray David's psalms when I was angry because, well, it helped. I'm talking the destuction kind here.
My youngest daughter was in Cal. staying with my sister and her husband. She was having an extremely hard time finding work in her profession, just having graduated college, and was very depressed, so much so my sister had no influence. My brother-in-law could be a pain with his intellectual lawyer ways and no understanding of a young girl. I could just see him pointing out FACTS as if what he surmised was true.
I prayed the psalms, the really get down mean ones with all my passion and fury and directed them at My brother-in-law. I called for his influence to be strangled around his head and every other idea I got out of the psalms. I prayed for my daughter for 6 hours on my knees as I was desperate as a mother and I would have done anything to bind up dishearting words and my brother-in-law.
I prayed with everything in me and  the next morning my sister called and they had an aftermath quake in Northridge where they lived. Their bedroom wall was split in two and my sister said it was as though the devil came up out of hell into their room. I said. "Glory be to God"
My daughter having lived through a quake was snappd out of her depression and went on to win about $25,000.00 on the PRICE IS RIGHT and came home!!
I wondered if my prayer, having been so heartfelt and with the rightiousness of Christ, had anything to do with it all. I opened my bible with a quick flip and read the words, "when the Lord walks on the earth, the earth  trembles" No one will ever convince me my prayer wasn't answered.
Judy
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: psalms
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2010, 05:20:43 AM »

Quote
i'll want the evil-ness in me to suffer?

LostANDfound~ :)

It is more like you will suffer the evilness in you to depart. Compulsions or addictions require the Spirit of God to break their oppressive hold.
Evil happens to us. Evil happens because of us. Both have to be overcome.

Judy~ :)

What a mighty outcry God caused you to pray!

As Ray points out, when we are caused to pray, we’d better get ready for God to do something wonderful! Ray doesn’t say it in those words. That’s how I understand what prayer can herald!
 
Blessings
Arc
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