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[dave]

The Lord has me spend a good part of my study time in the first four chapters of Genesis; when I find myself not in that study, my reasoning goes to considering as to why is the answer of  John 2:4 from Jesus to His mother "seem" to have a tone of less than respectful? Or am I hearing the words wrong when I read them? Also, I believe there is a deeper meaning, first, the mother of Jesus was invited(she was there) and Jesus and the disciples were invited; His mother is the one who speaks up when the wine is gone, and turns to her son, who gives the response I inquire about. Yes, I believe there is a good word to be revealed.
Joh 2:4

(ASV)  And Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

(CLV) And Jesus is saying to her, "What is it to Me and to thee, woman! Not as yet is My hour arriving."

(KJV)  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

(Rotherham)  And Jesus saith unto her—What part can I take with thee, O woman? Not yet, hath come, mine hour.

(RYLT-NT)  Jesus said to her, 'What -- to me and to you, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'

(WNT)  "Leave the matter in my hands," He replied; "the time for me to act has not yet come."

(YLT)  Jesus saith to her, `What--to me and to thee, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Micha7:9

Your question : Is there a disrespect? .... throws light to the possibility that perhaps there was no disrespect! 

Jesus spoke in Parables.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and My Judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but The Will of The Father which hath sent Me.
Joh 8:38  I speak that which I have seen with My Father:

Carnality is at enmity with Spirit.

I agree. Disrespect, is only how the carnal mind would see this response which actually is not a response, but a disclosure that the Scriptures edify us to understand, the way in which Jesus communicated, revered, obeyed and understood His Father!

Thank you for your excellent question!

Blessings to you as God inspires you to see beyond the carnal realm of human limitation.
Arc

[mharrell08]

Yes, I believe there is a good word to be revealed.

Micah,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say a 'good word to be revealed'. It's a judgmental question you are asking and each person's opinion will vary. And I'm pretty sure you won't find many people willing to judge our Lord's words and call them disrespectful.

Jesus told her, in layman's terms: 'What difference is this matter ('who cares' or 'why is this important') of wine between you and me? My time to preach the gospel has not yet come.' Jesus spoke the truth, which to some will always sound uncomfortable. But that does not make it disrespectful.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[dave]

" My time to preach the gospel has not yet come.'"

I thought that Jo. 1:38-51 shows Jesus was already if not at least started to preach. Doesnt "my hour has not come..." doesnt that speak of His time of sacrifice?

Maybe the word disrespect was wrong. It just "sounds" like there is a tone for a seemingly harmless question. I don't expect that people should judge, and I hope you don't think my question was a judging one. I reason that whatever my Lord spoke that there is word of knowledge within.

Thank you.

[dave]

"Jesus spoke in Parables. " Arc

That was the thought when was reading. Thank you for your input.

[Kat]

Just like here on the forum, when you can not see the demeanor of a person, the expression of their face or hear the tone of their voice, and all the little minute details that we assess when speaking with someone, then you have the opportunity to misread the mere words you read. So I do not believe for a moment Jesus would ever say anything to His mother that was unkind. As Marques said Jesus was just explaining to her the situation, but you will note that He did do as she requested.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

I don't believe that there is a misreading, and I don't believe for a moment that Jesus said anything unkind to His mother. The situation was certainly in His plan, I also must believe that His mothers request was not what caused Jesus to begin His ministry. If Jesus only spoke in parables, as I understand, then am I in error to believe that there is more to His words that what we read?
John 2:11 This beginning of the signs Jesus does in Cana of Galilee, and manifests His glory, and His disciples believe in Him.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[mharrell08]

" My time to preach the gospel has not yet come.'"

I thought that Jo. 1:38-51 shows Jesus was already if not at least started to preach. Doesnt "my hour has not come..." doesnt that speak of His time of sacrifice?

Those passages speak of Jesus gathering His disciples. They don't say He was preaching to the masses as yet. Jesus turning water into wine is thought to be His first miracle, that is the perspective I was speaking of.

Whether Jesus was talking about preaching the gospel or just His sacrifice, either way, Jesus made the point that worrying about wine is no where near important as to the job He was sent to do.

Maybe the word disrespect was wrong. It just "sounds" like there is a tone for a seemingly harmless question. I don't expect that people should judge, and I hope you don't think my question was a judging one. I reason that whatever my Lord spoke that there is word of knowledge within.

Thank you.

When I use the word judge, it's not with a direct negative connotation. It's simply means to use one's own 'judgment' to discern whether a matter was right/wrong/, good/bad, etc. We can judge a situation in a positive light.

But the fact remains, whether we say 'disrespect' or 'had a tone' or whatever, the question is still the same. It's a judgmental question: you are asking whether we think Jesus answer to His mother's questions was right/wrong, respectful/disrespectful, etc. At least, that is what I understand the question of the subject to be.

We don't know if Jesus' mother made a 'seemingly harmless question'. It only seems harmless to us because we are only given very little details of this event. There's no telling how many times she asked Him to do this. And she also knows from her pregnancy that Jesus was sent to do much more important matters than turning water into wine. And like Kat says: He STILL did it.

I don't believe that there is a misreading, and I don't believe for a moment that Jesus said anything unkind to His mother. The situation was certainly in His plan, I also must believe that His mothers request was not what caused Jesus to begin His ministry. If Jesus only spoke in parables, as I understand, then am I in error to believe that there is more to His words that what we read?
John 2:11 This beginning of the signs Jesus does in Cana of Galilee, and manifests His glory, and His disciples believe in Him.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

I believe you when you say you don't believe Jesus was unkind to His mother. But when you starting off asking was His words disrespectful, that led to confusion. If you didn't believe it, why even ask?

As far as whether Jesus words had more meaning than what was said, this is why the 12 Truths paper is a great guideline to follow. Yes, Jesus spoke in parables but no parable is it's own interpetation (Truth #9). We must compare Jesus' words of spirit in His response to a spiritual match (Truth #8). We need 2-3 witnesses that can attest to whatever point you believe is being made (Truth #6).

So what do you believe the spiritual message is in His response?


Marques

P.S. Please do not take my direct approach as strife with you. I think this is an interesting study, Micah. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi micah 7:9

I appreciate your perseverance. I agree with you, Jesus spoke truthfully in the Scripture you have presented where He informs us that His Hour had not yet come.

The hour that Jesus says had not yet come, was truly as He said. It wasn't the hour when He performs miracles and is believed, but when He doesn't perform any miracle and is betrayed and abandoned - THAT is the hour Jesus tells us. 

Jesus tells us when that hour is.

Mat 26:45  Then cometh He to His disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, THE HOUR is at hand, and the THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED INTO THE HANDS OF SINNERS.

Mat 26:55  In  THAT SAME HOUR said Jesus to THE MULTITUDES, Are ye COME OUT AS AGAINST A THIEF WITH SWORDS AND STAVES for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

Mat 26:56  But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. THEN ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM AND FLED.

Nothing could happen to Him before THAT HOUR:

Joh 7:30  Then they sought to take Him: but no man laid hands on Him, because His hour was not yet come.

WE enter that same hour of Christ when we are betrayed, abandoned and we are not performing any miracles. THAT’S our hour too, of, with and in Christ.

Joh 16:20  Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

micah7:9 the Scripture you present does disclose the hour of Christ, as an hour of sorrow in abandonment, grief in rejection, as the world celebrates. There are no miracles in that hour. This is an important hour. It marks the believers hour too, when abandoned and rejected for Faith of Christ and believing God, we endure, much suffering and tribulation to enter into the Joy of The Kingdom of God.

When the world betrays, abandons and rejects us, and when there are no more miracles to perform for the world, THAT'S as the hour Jesus Christ anticipated, declared and endured.


Blessings
Arc

[dave]

I can see what you say about the hour.  I just see all of what Jesus did as significant to our growing. We read that Jesus, his disciples, and His mother were invited to a wedding that would run out of wine and it is His mother who is notified and she turns to her son Jesus with the need. And Jesus states a truth that His hour has not yet come makes me to reason that there is much to understand and glean from the first of the signs of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[dave]

" My time to preach the gospel has not yet come.'"

I thought that Jo. 1:38-51 shows Jesus was already if not at least started to preach. Doesnt "my hour has not come..." doesnt that speak of His time of sacrifice?

Those passages speak of Jesus gathering His disciples. They don't say He was preaching to the masses as yet. Jesus turning water into wine is thought to be His first miracle, that is the perspective I was speaking of.

Whether Jesus was talking about preaching the gospel or just His sacrifice, either way, Jesus made the point that worrying about wine is no where near important as to the job He was sent to do.

Maybe the word disrespect was wrong. It just "sounds" like there is a tone for a seemingly harmless question. I don't expect that people should judge, and I hope you don't think my question was a judging one. I reason that whatever my Lord spoke that there is word of knowledge within.

Thank you.

When I use the word judge, it's not with a direct negative connotation. It's simply means to use one's own 'judgment' to discern whether a matter was right/wrong/, good/bad, etc. We can judge a situation in a positive light.

But the fact remains, whether we say 'disrespect' or 'had a tone' or whatever, the question is still the same. It's a judgmental question: you are asking whether we think Jesus answer to His mother's questions was right/wrong, respectful/disrespectful, etc. At least, that is what I understand the question of the subject to be.

We don't know if Jesus' mother made a 'seemingly harmless question'. It only seems harmless to us because we are only given very little details of this event. There's no telling how many times she asked Him to do this. And she also knows from her pregnancy that Jesus was sent to do much more important matters than turning water into wine. And like Kat says: He STILL did it.

I don't believe that there is a misreading, and I don't believe for a moment that Jesus said anything unkind to His mother. The situation was certainly in His plan, I also must believe that His mothers request was not what caused Jesus to begin His ministry. If Jesus only spoke in parables, as I understand, then am I in error to believe that there is more to His words that what we read?
John 2:11 This beginning of the signs Jesus does in Cana of Galilee, and manifests His glory, and His disciples believe in Him.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

I believe you when you say you don't believe Jesus was unkind to His mother. But when you starting off asking was His words disrespectful, that led to confusion. If you didn't believe it, why even ask?

As far as whether Jesus words had more meaning than what was said, this is why the 12 Truths paper is a great guideline to follow. Yes, Jesus spoke in parables but no parable is it's own interpetation (Truth #9). We must compare Jesus' words of spirit in His response to a spiritual match (Truth #8). We need 2-3 witnesses that can attest to whatever point you believe is being made (Truth #6).

So what do you believe the spiritual message is in His response?


Marques

P.S. Please do not take my direct approach as strife with you. I think this is an interesting study, Micah. 

I find no strife my friend

[Joel]

I don't think any disrespect was shown here by Jesus towards Mary.
I know that God does whatever, whenever, where ever he wants at any time.
And that he rewards us when we obey him and place our trust, and faith in him.
I am reminded that Mary told the servants to "do whatever he tells you to do." (Faith)
 I see it as God making a concession and giving a small taste of the great things to come.
If I go to the kitchen and my wife is making a mouth watering meal and I ask for something to eat or DRINK she very well may say " get away its not ready yet". But if I'm carefull, she may let me have a little taste of this, or that. LOL
Never the less, it was a wonderfull thing for Jesus to do, at the start of his ministry.

Joel

[dave]

Does Ray have any work  to read on Jesus' first sign? Or any paper on John 2?

[mharrell08]

Does Ray have any work  to read on Jesus' first sign? Or any paper on John 2?

None that I can recall, perhaps another member can find an excerpt.

I was still waiting your response as to what you thought the spiritual significance of Jesus' response regarding the wine...

[dave]

Does Ray have any work  to read on Jesus' first sign? Or any paper on John 2?

None that I can recall, perhaps another member can find an excerpt.

I was still waiting your response as to what you thought the spiritual significance of Jesus' response regarding the wine...

I understand the number six is the number of man, and is for Adam/man. The pots were for washings/purifying (law) which had 2 or  3 firkins; 2 is the number of witness and 3 is the number of completness. There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with  partial understanding.
Jesus said fill the water pots with water and they filled them to the brim, here we have complete filling to the brim which  represents a complete work, but the washing of the water(law) was past and a  new washing was presenting Himself. The wine, the best wine was now offered to the Governor (leader/religion) and represents the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus. The washing water is changed to wine(blood)  the cleansing power of the Blood of the Lamb. The cleansing and regeneration, the renewing for the new man.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Ah! So that's it micah7:9  

The words God speaks are Spirit and Truth. The words God speaks are symbols and parables. We are to understand the Spirit with spiritual comprehension not carnal translation.

Certainly, the Scriptures are not superficial!

I enjoyed that vs 9 "the servants which drew the water knew" Those servants who obeyed but did not have any knowledge or relationship with  Christ, at the prompting of His Mother (Our Mother is Heavenly Jerusalem) got involved!  The servants were to remain in the background in the duration of the Ministry and life of Christ, and did not follow Christ as His Disciples, yet they, the servants KNEW.

Servants of obedience who know, aren't the same as those who are pained to reject Who they know, as was Peter when he denied knowing Christ. We become Heirs and no longer servants, by the Spirit of God.

Blessings
Arc

[G. Driggs]

Wow good stuff micah7:9. I see now you never really thought that there was any disrespect on Jesus' part, but that it was just your way of introducing the deeper meaning. Just as Arcturus said, most (the many) would probably see it as a sign of disrespect on Jesus' part, but not the few.

It's so easy to misunderstand someone on these forums isn't it? I've seen it a lot, and I know I've done it a few times myself. As Ray always says, "pay attention to all the words", and re-read them a few times just in case. I guess this could go for anything anyone writes anywhere.

Peace,

G.Driggs

[Ricky]

Hello all, when I read this about Jesus being disrespectful, I thought, it kinda does sound that way to me, because I wonder why He would call His mother, women, rather than mother.
   Bless you all.   Ricky

[Akira329]

I understand the number six is the number of man, and is for Adam/man. The pots were for washings/purifying (law) which had 2 or  3 firkins; 2 is the number of witness and 3 is the number of completness. There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with  partial understanding.
Jesus said fill the water pots with water and they filled them to the brim, here we have complete filling to the brim which  represents a complete work, but the washing of the water(law) was past and a  new washing was presenting Himself. The wine, the best wine was now offered to the Governor (leader/religion) and represents the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus. The washing water is changed to wine(blood)  the cleansing power of the Blood of the Lamb. The cleansing and regeneration, the renewing for the new man.

Hey Micah7:9
Is this the "good word" you were referring to?
I'm still unsure of exactly what your saying?

The number 6 is not the number of man.
Are you possibley referencing:
Rev 13:18  Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Why is this significant in this instance? Because of the six pots? Where is the spiritual match for this??

This statement is perplexing:

There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with  partial understanding.

Can you clear this up?

Your making a lot of assumptions with no scriptures to show.

Your attempting to interpret the meaning of the objects used in this section of scriptures,
but remember:
2Pe 1:20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Just provide us some scriptures.
This could be a good study subject

Hope this helps
Antaiwan

[dave]

There is nothing that I can give you that will answer your request so I must remove what I was given. I will say that I had no intention of causing any out of order post. I see that I have crossed some boundries, I had no thoughts of having a "private interpretation" I apologize for my post. I will not apologize for what the Lord gave me.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.