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Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
wisdom:
These scriptures were used to show(among other things) that angels sinned in heaven and are doomed to hellfire. Can someone please give me insight on each of these verses, I appreciate all comments( please bare with me if this was discussed plenty of times, any links to rays website on these scriptures would also be appreciated).
Samson:
--- Quote from: wisdom on November 26, 2010, 04:12:06 AM ---These scriptures were used to show(among other things) that angels sinned in heaven and are doomed to hellfire. Can someone please give me insight on each of these verses, I appreciate all comments( please bare with me if this was discussed plenty of times, any links to rays website on these scriptures would also be appreciated).
--- End quote ---
Hi Wisdom,
Firstly, The Greek word "Aggelos" usually translated Angels isn't necessarily referring to God's Spirit Beings or God's spirit messengers. The primary meaning of Aggelos is messengers, but can be Angels or even Pastors. Human messengers can be referred to as Angels or even Pastors. Revelation Chapter 12 is not referring to a literally physical War in Heaven. Heaven is a realm and not a literally physical place. Read some Emails copied and pasted below of Ray's.
Is there a passage in the bible that says that when satan fell 1/3 of the angels fell with him.
Dear Reader:
No, there is no such Scripture. However, those who teach all kinds of heretical and
unscriptural doctrines, usually use Revelation 12:1-5 to justify this teaching.
God be with you,
Ray
Dear Mike: In Scripture, angels, messengers, and ministers are used interchangeably.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels [#32] spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Greek: #32, aggelos, From aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a PASTOR: - angel, messenger. (Strong's Concordance).
Now then, notice what Paul says concerning Satan and his "ministers"--
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS also be transformed as the MINISTERS of righteousness; whose end [eonian/gehenna/hell/lake of fire JUDGMENT] shall be according to their works.
It is the false ministers (the "ministers of righteousness") of Mystery Babylon--The CHURCH, who are to be judged in this "eonian" fire along with their many millions of followers. See my last Installment: "The Lake of Fire and the Second Death."
God be with you,
Ray
> Ray,
> Thank you for all that you are doing to reveal God's truth. Let it be known that
> God has used you to change my life. Bless you.
>
> A question for you. Please, simply direct me if this has already been addressed
> on your site.
> After looking at a Greek dictionary, it appears to me that the word "aidios"
> more closely resembles the english concept of everlasting or eternal than
> "aion". I see that "aidios" is used twice in the New Testament.
>
> "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly
> seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal (aidios)
> power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20
>
> "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own
> habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting (aidios) chains under darkness unto
> the judgment of the gre at day." Jude 1:6
>
> I can see how the definition I found fits the verse in Romans, however, I am
> confused by its use in Jude. Can you shed some light on this. Do you see it as
> you do the term "aion", meaning an age, era, period of time?
>
> Thank you again,
> Sherri
Dear Sherri:
I have answered this question many times. "Aidios" assuredly DOES NOT mean "eternal." It means imperceptible or invisable. It has two elements "A" = not, and "idios" = see or perceive. Hence "not see or not perceive." What can BE seen in creation attests to what CANNOT BE SEEN in God's achievements. The bonds of the angels are not visible and literal physical chains, but "imperceptible" chains. It is very similar to the word "h - ades," which is also un perceive, hence unseen or imperceptible.
God be with you,
Ray
Below is an excerpt from 23 minutes in Hell critique by Ray.(In regards to the word Angels or Messengers of Satan and Who are they)
So there we have it: According to Bill, the demons in his hell are angels, angels who sinned, and that Jesus supposedly told Bill that God made hell just for "the Devil and his angels." So hell was made for the Devil and his angels, but Bill then tells us that these "angels," are really demons, and that these "demons" are really animals. But the Greek word translated "angels" is 'angelos,' and means: "an angel, messenger, or pastor, however, demons and animals are NOT "angels, messengers, or pastors."
"Oh, what tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!"
No, demons are not angels, and angels are not demons, and there is not one Scripture to support such a theory.
The "angels of God" (Matt 25:31) and the "angels of the Devil" (Matt. 25:31) are the same Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor.' (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Nowhere is this word defined as "a demon."
Although the King James does not use the word "demon(s)," At numerous places in Scripture the word "daimon"--meaning 'demon' is found. Example, the word "devils" found in Matt. 8:31 is 'daimon' in the Greek manuscripts. Various English Versions translate 'daimon' into "demons" rather than "devils." But "demons/daimons" are never, ever translated "angels." Whoever or whatever the angels of the Devil are, they assuredly are not invisible or visible huge, ugly, deformed, alien monsters, which Bill calls "demons," "chained angels," and "angels of the Devil."
Please notice once more the definition of "angelos"--"an angel, messenger, or PASTOR" (Dr. Strong's Greek Dictionary #32, 'angelos'). How in the world could anyone confuse the hideous-looking zero IQ monsters in Bill's book, with angels, messengers, or pastors. One could possibly get a few back-woods uneducated aboriginals to worship such creatures, but certainly not hundreds and hundreds of millions of educated Christians. If Rev. 12:9 is a true statement from God, then how is it that the two billion Christians in the world are excluded from "...the whole world" which are deceived by the Devil and his angels?
And remember that the Pharisees were the religious leaders of God's church in Judea. But they were not godly men or godly ministers of Jesus, but rather they were the children of their father the Devil. These religious leaders were and still are, "the angels of the Devil"--the "ministers of Satan" (Matt. 25:41 & II Cor. 11:14-15).
Jesus calls these leaders of the Church, "angels of the Devil," "the children of their father the Devil." The Apostle Paul calls them "Satan's ministers."
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).
Hope this helps, Samson.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: wisdom on November 26, 2010, 04:12:06 AM ---These scriptures were used to show(among other things) that angels sinned in heaven and are doomed to hellfire. Can someone please give me insight on each of these verses, I appreciate all comments( please bare with me if this was discussed plenty of times, any links to rays website on these scriptures would also be appreciated).
--- End quote ---
Angels and messengers are translated from the same Greek word in the Holy Scriptures, so scriptures that use angels are sometimes talking about human beings and not spiritual beings. Look under the headers 'Contradiction #19 & Contradiction #20' in Ray's newest paper 'Hell is a Christian Hoax' (http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html). Ray specifically goes over Jude 1:6, and the same applies to the other scriptures you mentioned.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Beloved:
Sampson I am not sure why you chose the word messanger and pastor. It sounds like you mean a clerical person is a messanger. ;D
As`Marques points out Ray refers to "messanger and ministers". I do not think he is talkig about a clerical person
A messanger brings you information and one who ministers does something in the physical to effect you. They can be in the spiritual or in the physical realm
The word pastor has been translated from the word shepard...ie one who pastures sheep remember Peter was told by Jesus to feed and take care of His sheep and lambs.
There is only ONE Shepard...all the rest are hirlings....many are thiefs
In the old testament the a@@ of balamm was a messanger who alowed his rider to see God's ministers who would have destroyed him if he kept moving in that direction.
In the NT some minsters came to Jesus in the desert after the temptation and probably gave food and water In the garden of Gestheme a messanger from heaven gave him strength as he prayed.
If you think about your life we all have messanger or ministers in our lives. I know I have been recused and things happen.
all brethern and elders help pastor and shepard younger believers. The whole Nicolation thing with lay and clerical is a power trip. I could see that a clerical person could be used to be a messanger but I sort of see that is more like balaam a@@. Neither actually realize what they are saying in a spiritual sense.
Yes God does provide teachers like Ray and places like this forum to learn and grow and each of us has to continue on the journey
(Rom 12:2) Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
(Joh 14:26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
His sheep hear His voice and follow
beloved
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Carol
Thanks for the beautiful perspective from your personal understanding that Christ is the One Sheppard Who lays down His Life for the Sheep. 8)
To recall ~ Ray expounds that demons are not the ghoulish monsters that fictional theology believes and falsely propergate ~ they are the outwardly smiling, physically clean faced, kiss up to you false teachers of tithe, free will, hell and bondage pastors, clerics, followers and believers of Babylonian Christiandom who are as "angels of light", yet to eyes that are opened to Truth, they are angels/messengers, of Satanic false doctrines of demons! :)
Blessings
Arc
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