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Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????

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cherokee:
Here is another email to Ray that should help.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6581.0.html

Mr. Smith;
     In your 2/3/2008 audio bible study on the BT website you said there was no word in the bible that depicts the true meaning of "eternal". The only word I could come up with is used in Rom 1:20 that describes God's "ETERNAL power and Godhead..."  AIDIOS is the correct Greek word for eternal.
 
Hope this helps,
Ken from Brazil


Dear Ken:  Oh really?  And who told you that?

The word translated "eternal" in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 6 is "aidion."  The "a" is a prefix meaning "un" or "no" or "not."  It is a negative just as in the word "hades" which Dr. Strong correctly informs us is made up of  "G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen"  UN-seen, or NOT-seen--IMperceptible.

Well, aidion is very close to being the same word and means "IMperceptible, and this is precisely what the context of these two Scriptural usages prove.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known [something perceivable] of God is manifest [made perceivable] in them; for God hath showed [made perceivable] it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible [IMperceivable] things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made [what is NOT perceivable, NOT seen, CAN be seen by things that ARE SEEN, namely "the THINGS that are made], even His eternal power [yes, "even His UNseen, NOT seen, IMperceptable power" can BE SEEN by things that CAN BE SEEN, namely "the things that are made] and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

There is the contextual proof of the word, plain and simple. Now Jude:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [Gk: 'aidion'] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 Once more, let's look at the context:  Notice that these angels are "reserved."  Here is the definition of "reserve"--"1. To keep back, as for FUTURE USE or for a special purpose" (American Heritage College Dictionary).  How can some that is "everlasting" as the King James suggests, be "kept back for FUTURE USE?"  That is nonsense! That is terrible translating.   Other translations use the words "to" and "for" in place of the King James "unto the judgment." In other words these restraining chains last only "till" "to" or "for" another day.  These chains are not "everlasting," but rather they are "imperceptible."  How does one "chain" a spirit being with "visible iron chains made with matter?"

Hope this helps your understanding. I have been answering this same question  on aiodion for years now.

God be with you,

Ray

Blessings,
Suzie

Beloved:
Yes Debora We need the Spirit of Discenment of the spiriutal and the physical.

None the less my favorite thing spoken in regard to aggelos is when jesus said

(Mat 18:10)  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 18:11)  For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

When you read the rest of this chapter, the so called angels of light that you refer to that snare and entrap should take notice.

beloved

Deborah-Leigh:
Sure truth, beloved.

Great find Suzie!

Here’s a spiritual match for Jude 1 :6 that confirms the doctrine Ray expounds.

2Pe 2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Blessings
Deborah

Deborah-Leigh:
Carol ~

The rest of the chapter Mat 18: 12, you referenced, is matched, in follow up of 2 Pet 2:4. Both are the Word of God and both make the same point. :)

Blessings
Arc

Samson:
Hi Carol,

Sampson I am not sure why you chose the word messanger and pastor. It sounds like you mean a clerical person is a messanger.   Grin (Beloved's Question to Samson)

Sorry for a late response to Your question. I worked 12 Hours Thursday & Friday, plus ruined the small refrigerator at work by attempting to Defrost it, it had 2 1/2 buckets of built up ice and was probably on it's way out, so I wasn't in a decent Emotional and Mental disposition for answering anything.

Firstly, I concede that the word "Pastor"(Shepherd) applies to the Great & Fine Shepherd, Christ Jesus; Heb. 13:20; John. 10:11; Matt. 9:36. In regards to the Greek Word "Aggelos." personally I don't usually use the term "Pastor" in reference to that word. Actually, it was from Ray's information that I expressed that understanding. Since Wisdom "seemed" to equate the Angels from Jude, 2Peter & Rev 12 as Bad Angel Spiritual Beings synonymous with "Demons," I was attempting to show that the Angels mentioned in those passages were Human Messengers that bring Blasphemous and Heretical teachings. This is typified by Christendoms Ministers(Pastors) who deliver a false message, so they are Messengers of false teachings, knowingly or unknowingly. The word Shepherd comes from the Greek Word " Poimen," used Metaphorically as "Pastors," but Shepherd is the exact meaning; Acts. 20:28; Acts. 20:17. This is a service committed to Elders(GK-Presbyteroi, derived from Presbyteros) and Overseers(Gk-Episkopoi derived from Episkopos, often translated "Bishop"). Before I Post some excerpts of Rays from The Critique of 23 Minutes in Hell regarding His use of "Pastor," I will define a few meanings in the next paragraph regarding Overseer, Elder(older Men) first.

1) Overseer: From the Greek word Episkopos means " one who watches over; guardian, scout." Episkope- means inspection or Office of Oversight(Luke. 19:44; 1Peter. 2:12). From a Greek Lexicon By Liddell & Scott, Ninth Edition, 1968, pg. 657. The Verb forms Episkopeo & Episkeptomai mean " to look upon, to consider, have regard to something or someone, used as visit to sick friends. From G. Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, pp. 600-602, 606.

2) Elder(Older Men): Presbyteroi, Presbyteros. Episkopos(Overseer) describes the fundamental responsibility this position entails, whereas Presbyteros indicates the maturity of those described. So Presbyteros indicates the mature qualities of the one appointed and Episkopos, the duties inherent with the appointment.

     Excerpt's from Ray(23 Minutes in Hell Critique regarding use of the word "Pastor" & "Messenger" in blue Color for Your convenience).

MESSENGERS: Only once in Scripture do we read of "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. 12:7). Messenger is here translated from Dr. Strong's #32 'angelos' which means: "a messenger, especially an angel, a pastor." Some Versions translate II Cor. 12:7 as "an angel of Satan" (Moffatt Translation); "an angel of Satan" (Emphatic Diaglott); "one of Satan's angels" (Phillip's Modern English New Testament). The Greek word 'angelos' has three meanings: "angel, messenger, and pastor." "Demon" is NOT a definition of angelos!

Of the hundreds and hundreds of different translations of the Scriptures, I know of none that translated the word "angelos" as "demon." And so we have conclusive proof from the Scriptures "the Devil's angels" are mortal men. The false prophet of Acts 13:6; the Pharisees whom Jesus called "children of the Wicked one" in Matt. 13:38; those Pharisees whom Jesus said had the Devil for their father in John 8:44; Satan's "ministers of righteousness" in II Cor. 11:14-15); are all human, mortal men, not spirits--despicable, disgusting, dirty, demons!

Now then, how many of my readers believe that Bill's demon pictured above, or the group of demons pictured above are "pastors" or "ministers of the gospel?" Probably none of you. An "angelos' is an "angel," a "messenger," or a "pastor." So now let's answer the question: Do the angels/messengers/pastors of the Devil look like, [1] evil, ugly, animalistic, spirit demons with Zero IQ's? or [2] non-descript, invisible spirits, or [3] pleasant-looking, mortal, humans? Nowhere in Scriptures do we ever find a description of demons as Bill presents in his book. Such creatures are fraudulent deceptions of carnal-minded deceivers.

Notice the word PASTOR mentioned in Paragraphs 1 & 3. Ray equates Christendoms Ministers as "PASTORS," A "MESSENGER." (CAPS ARE MINE FOR EMPHASIS).

  Below some more excerpts from Ray showing the distinction between Angels & Demons.

You won't find the word "demon" in the King James Version. The Greek word translated "devils" in the King James is, daimon, and means "a demon or super natural spirit of a bad nature," Strong's Greek Dictionary). "Devils" should be translated "demons" seeing that there is only one Devil--Satan (Rev. 12:9).

Demons can think and they can speak with human voices, as witnessed by those cast out by Jesus and the apostles. There alone is proof that Bill's assertion that demons have "zero IQ" is a fabricated crock. No one has ever seen a real demon as they are spirit, and they are not visible. We are never told that we might on occasion entertain "demons unaware," as we might entertain angels (Heb. 3:2).

"Angels," however, can be either visible or invisible, and are often called "men." Sometimes they seem to be manifested as physical men (Acts 10:3 & 30 and Luke 24:4), but in reality they are actually spirit beings. Mortal men when used of God are called angels or messengers which, like all men, are destined to die. However, spirit angels in Heaven can never die:

Therefore, "angels" can be [1] immortal spirits from God in Heaven, (as with the angel that was first invisible to Balaam, but then later was made visible, Num. 22:31), or [2] if needed, they can manifest themselves to appear as normal humans, but with a radiance that shows they are supernatural beings which are only taking on human form (See Judges 13:6), or [3] they can so perfectly make themselves visible and in human form so that anyone would be unaware that they are really angels from Heaven (See Heb. 13:2 above).

When mortal men are used in the capacity of an agent/messenger for God or any other authority. they are usually called in Hebrew, malak, translated "angel" 100+ times. All references to "angels" in the Old Testament are from the Hebrew #4397, 'malak'--whose definition is "a messenger (especially of God), that is, an angel (also, a prophet, priest or teacher): ambassador, angel, king, messenger" (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary).

"Malaks" can be invisible spirit angels, spirit angels manifested to appear as radiant, glowing men, spirit angels made to look like perfectly normal men with no supernatural radiance, or mortal men themselves are called "malak" when used in the capacity of a messenger.

Context usually dictates whether a "malak" is a spirit or a mortal man. When it appears that a spirit being sent from God is in view, malak is almost always translated "angel." However, when a mortal man is being used to convey a message from either God or a person of rank, malak is usually translated "messenger."

One exception is Malachi 3:1 where malak is translated, "My messenger..." with a lower case "m," while the second time we have, "...the Messenger of the covenant in Whom..." "Messenger" has a capital "M," and "Whom" has a capital "W," which might suggest that this Messenger is Jesus.

Carol, I hope this answers Your question and the above excerpts are meant for Forum Member Wisdom, too.

                         Kind Regards, Samson

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