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I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
mikeb209:
I've read Rays teachings and pretty much agree with most of it.
But regarding the lake of fire Ray says that the LOF is the judgment
and that sinners and saints alike are judged by this same fire.
From the LOF series part E:,
"The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!
I'm sorry but I don't see it. The LOF is obviously AFTER the judgement
and not the judgment itself.
It's like going in front of the judge and if you're found guilty you're thrown
into prison, (the lake of fire).
The lake of fire is for the unsaved only.
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown
into the lake of fire. ... - Revelation 20:15
Those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death. (Rev. 2:11)
Believers/over comers have no part in any second death/lake of fire. We die once and that's it.
The lake of fire is for the condemned. And "there is no condemnation to those
who are in Christ Jesus". (Rom 8:1)
I love Ray and his teachings and I'm sorry to say it, but I think Ray is badly mistaken here.
arion:
First of all welcome to the forum. Secondly though...it's probably not good to start your first post with a disagreement with the teachings. The way it works around here is that if you disagree with something that Ray has taught then send him an email and he'll be glad to discuss it with you as he is able to. Ray has said that he's not perfect and he is willing to be shown that he is wrong on something. But you better be able to find at least two scriptures that show that what Ray has taught is in error. Perhaps the better way to handle this is not to start a post saying that you think that Ray is wrong but instead saying that you don't understand what he is teaching here and ask for clarification to help you to understand what Ray has said. The scriptures are spiritual. What Ray has taught us is spiritual. The book of Revelation is spiritual and not literal. When we take Revelation and attempt to make it literal we get into all sorts of contradictions.
Kat:
Hi Mike209,
Welcome to the forum. You should reread the article again, sometimes it takes several reads to get a grasp on what is being said. Here is an excerpt from the same article.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------------
GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH IN FIRE
We would do well to review lessons we learned in the "Lake of Fire" Installment 3, Judgment by Fire Must Begin at the House of God, and Installment 6, The Two Judgments by FIRE, and Installment 16, D-3, The Sermon on the Mount is for YOU. Recapping quickly:
*Jesus taught that "Gehenna fire" is first applicable to US, His Disciples & Elect:
"But I say unto you [Christ's disciples, the Elect, YOU, right now] ...shall be in danger of Gehenna fire" (Matt. 5:22).
"And if thy right eye offend you [the eye of a disciple, any true follower of Jesus Christ] ...thy whole body [body of His disciples, that's us] should be cast into Gehenna" (Verse 29-30).
*He said this fire was "...already kindled" during His ministry (Luke 12:49).
Jesus comes to us as a Comforter, but also as a Refiner. All the symbolic, spiritual fires of Scripture are the same fire. The fire of Gehenna, eonian fire, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, salted with fire, fire already kindled, God's consuming fire, chaff burning fire, tares burning fire, fiery trials, ministry of flaming fire, and lake of fire are all the same spiritual consuming fire of God. And they all accomplish the same thing--THEY PURIFY
v
"And I saw another sign in heaven...And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God" (Rev. 15:1 & 2).
Yes, these are the Elect of God who are now before the Throne of God and are standing on a beautiful crystal clear sea of glass. They have been tamed. They have conquered the beast within and the beast of Babylon without. They are shown victorious over the beast, his image, his mark and his name, but it came at a price. Did you notice the words "sea of glass mingled with FIRE?" Yes, the world must go through the fire, the lake of fire/second death, and so must God's Elect.
v
the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.
Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).
There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."
The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).
But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."
"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).
The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.
This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.
Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
-------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
aqrinc:
The lake of fire is for the unsaved only.
--- Quote from: mikeb209 on November 27, 2010, 08:50:20 PM ---I've read Rays teachings and pretty much agree with most of it.
But regarding the lake of fire Ray says that the LOF is the judgment
and that sinners and saints alike are judged by this same fire.
From the LOF series part E:,
"The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!
I'm sorry but I don't see it. The LOF is obviously AFTER the judgement
and not the judgment itself.
It's like going in front of the judge and if you're found guilty you're thrown
into prison, (the lake of fire).
The lake of fire is for the unsaved only.
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown
into the lake of fire. ... - Revelation 20:15
Those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death. (Rev. 2:11)
Believers/over comers have no part in any second death/lake of fire. We die once and that's it.
The lake of fire is for the condemned. And "there is no condemnation to those
who are in Christ Jesus". (Rom 8:1)
I love Ray and his teachings and I'm sorry to say it, but I think Ray is badly mistaken here.
--- End quote ---
Hello mikeb209,
Interesting introduction, i take it you read the forum rules before agreeing to sign up and abide by them? You may want to review the rules before continuing. Besides it is a bit rude to just jump in and start calling out people before even knowing what you are seeing.
You state:
--- Quote ---I've read Rays teachings and pretty much agree with most of it.
But regarding the lake of fire Ray says that the LOF is the judgment
and that sinners and saints alike are judged by this same fire.
--- End quote ---
Then proceed to contradict yourself right away. Good idea to organize your thoughts better, before spewing out corrections left and right.
george.
Rene:
Hi mikeb209:
Welcome to the forum. Since you are a new member, I would like to encourage you to review the forum rules before posting. This would insure that you are in compliance with the way this forum operates. For your convenience, I have copied the rules below:
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René
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