bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant  (Read 11470 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Foxx

  • Guest
Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« on: December 18, 2010, 07:44:36 PM »

So I was in discussion (more of a debate that my friend started with the predication she just wanted my opinion) about Matthew 18: 23 -35

To be honest I had not even remembered this series of passages and after reading this parable I was just so amazed at God and it has instilled even MORE faith in God's reconciliation of all humanity. She wanted to use this story as proof of eternal torment but the moment I read it I was just so thankful to God for her showing it to me because it proved the exact opposite! I will post the KJV here just for convenience sake but of course if you feel like looking it up by all means do so.


Matt 18:23-35 Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who wanted to reconcile accounts with his servants. When he had begun to reconcile, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But because he couldn't pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down and kneeled before him, saying, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will repay you all!’ The lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. "But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, who owed him one hundred denarii, and he grabbed him, and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you!’ He would not, but went and cast him into prison, until he should pay back that which was due. So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were exceedingly sorry, and came and told to their lord all that was done. Then his lord called him in, and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt, because you begged me. Shouldn’t you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?’ His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him. So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds."


Let me start off by saying that this seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) a parable with multiple teachings and principles in one that represent  different aspects of how God works and does not have just one meaning, which is deciphered incorrectly by the way and taken out of context.  I believe it has three things taught in it:

1) How generously forgiving and loving of humanity He is regardless of our sin
2) How we are supposed to treat and forgive others
3) How God judges and the temporary nature of that judgment
 

Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who wanted to reconcile accounts with his servants. When he had begun to reconcile, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.

First of all we do not know who this servant is, the automatic idea is he is some poor person who doesn't have much to their name but that is not necessarily the truth. Servants were often employees but they lived on the property of their master. Also, a servant would be anyone under a king. If you live in the king's kingdom ipso facto you are their servant. So we don't know exactly how rich this servant really was and while this amount of money is apparently quite a lot, equal to millions of dollars by todays standard, it shows that we are incapable of attaining forgiveness on our own. The ridiculous amount of money owed would be nearly impossible to repay on one's own. The main point it is clear that this servant was not a poor person who was loaned a ridiculous amount of money by a stupid king who didn't think it could ever be repaid in the first place! We may not be able to on our own but it can be repaid somehow and in someway!

But because he couldn't pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down and kneeled before him, saying, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will repay you all!’ The lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.[/b]

As stated before, the servant could not afford to repay the debt. Now this is not saying that it is not forgivable but simply the servant could not afford to pay it himself. So, he begged for forgiveness of which the king did forgive him. God forgives humanity of our sins no matter how extreme they may be. He is the one who chooses to forgive us, we do not save ourselves. This is in stark contrast to belief that it us who saves ourselves. Even though the servant begged forgiveness the question is did he ever have the power to save himself to begin with? Does asking automatically save you? No, it is God who saves us from our overwhelming sin (debt).

"But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, who owed him one hundred denarii, and he grabbed him, and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you!’ He would not, but went and cast him into prison, until he should pay back that which was due.

So the servant did not forgive another person such a small debt which was incredibly cruel...especially after having been forgiven for such a huge debt himself but interestingly enough the parable goes deeper which people tend to overlook. While what this man did was cruel it is saying that the "fellow servant" was thrown into prison UNTIL he should pay back that which was due. Which means the amount could be paid back at some point. What applies to us applies to God but on a greater level. Even though the torture/punishment was used to coherce or to meet the payment for a debt obviously it would not last forever especially by human terms which is what this smaller amount of money equals.

So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were exceedingly sorry, and came and told to their lord all that was done. Then his lord called him in, and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt, because you begged me. Shouldn't you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?’ His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him. So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don't each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds."

People overlook such a simple word, "until", what does "until" mean?


Until - used as a function word to indicate continuance (as of an action or condition) to a specified time
Strong's Greek Lexicon: ἕως eōs 2193 till, until a prim. particle used as a preposition, adverb and conjunction



In both Greek and English this word means its English definition, "a specified time..."

How can something be forever if it's "a specified time"? Why does Christendom insist on saying this insinuates forever when it clearly says it isn't?!

The next issue at hand is why was the servant tortured? For the money that he originally owed? No, he had been forgiven for that. He was being punished for his cruelty toward the fellow servant! This has nothing to do with the money that he owed! Jesus even tells us why this will happen right after.

So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don't each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds

This has nothing to do with the impossibility of paying back a ridiculous amount of money (sin) through being punished by the tormentors (hell) by being sentenced there forever by the king (God). Why does the church believe the Bible is just a bunch of ironic outcomes? The majority of the Christian church assumes that this is some prank played on the servant. Essentially they believe it is saying something like "You have to be punished until it's paid back but guess what, you will never be able to repay it, BWAHAHAHA!!!"  

Tell me, when did Christ speak in ironic statements? The whole of Christendom believes all of the parables regarding judgment are based on their perception of hell that was created with Dante's Inferno and other UNscriptural sources where everyone had some cruel and ironic punishment! No where in this did it even suggest that it would last forever! Just perhaps a long time most likely, but even then we aren't exactly sure!

This was all a spiritual metaphor - There will be those who are judged, but only UNTIL they pay back that which is owed! Why say "until" if it doesn't mean it will end? Why not just say never, will not, can not? If it did then it would justify everything they believe but guess what? It doesn't! They want this ironic situation because its either funnier, crueler or justice in THEIR minds. It's what THEY WANT to believe. That's the mind of the church today, it really is as Ray says, its disgusting and most of all it's sad.

My friend tried to trap me with this story and I thank God so much for the ability to discern these thing now. That although many may be punished, that punishment will end. It may not end UNTIL the debt is paid but it WILL end...

*****ADDITIONAL INFORMATION EDIT*****

I had been putting this off for a while but I wanted to add something to this in regards to the word "torment". I recently learned that the word "torment" comes from the word "basamos" which is the Greek word for a Touchstone. For those who don't know what a touchstone is exactly, it is a stone that is used to test the quality of a piece of gold. Jewelers still use them to this day.

They would rub the gold on the touchstone then apply an acid I believe to determine its worth. The words interrogate, torture, torment, etc all came from this word basamos. It is the same word used in Revelations and in this parable that Jesus provided. A touchstone was a TEST to see the true worth of something. It had a purpose..not just mindless barbarianism. That is what people will go through...a test...
Anyway, just thought I would add this for you guys! Thanks!

« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 09:27:16 PM by Foxx »
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 07:47:58 AM »

 It is a gift of God Who gave you that marvelous confirmation and insight as you discussed His Spirit and His Truth with another.
Had you not been inspired to do so, you may not have had the depth of wisdom given to you as God so caused! 8)

Thanks for sharing what God is doing as He makes you into His Mind and Heart that shares with others His Hope and Faith.

Blessings
Arc
Logged

Foxx

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 01:35:04 PM »

Thank you Arc! I really appreciate that.

Wasn't entirely sure how it would be received here since it was actually my first time posting something "of value" but I'm glad to see that I was on track with this insight. Anyway, thank you again for your support!

« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 01:44:31 PM by Foxx »
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 05:36:25 PM »



Blessings to you Foxx. :)
Logged

Linny

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 12:23:33 AM »

Such a great parable about the nature of the Kingdom of God.
I see this as the Lord forgiving those who recognize that they are saved (the church) and they in turn, think they are in a special club, deserving of forgiveness, while the rest of the world does not deserve the same forgiveness. They take the mercy of God freely but do not extend that same mercy to the "unsaved" who are not in their club.
Therefore, God will have to clean them up in the lake of fire for their unforgiving hearts.

I love reading the parables now with the knowledge that they are all about the Kingdom of Heaven to come.
Another great one is the parable of the lost son. What an incredible parallel of the church being angry and jealous of the love and forgiveness extended to the lost.

Thanks so much for sharing Foxx!
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 06:37:35 AM »

Hi Lin

As I read your lovely encouragement and insight of the prodigal son, my spirit took me to the memory of what happened in the heart of a very bitter Johna who was so fed up with too little shade and not enough comfort as he sat gleefully anticipating the destruction of Nineveh. God caused Johna to experience exceeding displeasure. Johna felt very angry to the point of asking God to let him die!

God makes His Home in our hearts. He purges us of all the defects of ill will, self aggrandizement, and by contrast, those inbetween the bone and marrow subconscious motives and comparisons we make, of ourselves, at the expense towards ALL those for whom Christ has died.

Blessings
Arc

  ~ Poor chap! God Bless Jonah for all God put him through to show us what must happen within us as The Spirit of Christ cleans His Temple within us!

Logged

lostANDfound

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 09:53:27 AM »

i love you guys!  nothing wise to add, just sitting here praising God for this forum!
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 10:27:27 AM »


Thank you for Love, LostAndFound. That is no small gift! :)


Blessings
Deb
Logged

Linny

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 12:17:15 PM »

Thank you Arc. So true, poor Jonah! (and poor us as we learn these lessons!   ;))
Love is a spectacular gift from us to one another lostANDfound! Thank you for sharing yours.
In the words of one of my favorite lyrists...
"All you need is love..."  ;D

Lin
Logged

aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 01:44:32 PM »


Foxx,

Very nice the way you laid this Parable out, thanks for sharing your Insight.

george.
Logged

Foxx

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 04:45:51 PM »


Foxx,

Very nice the way you laid this Parable out, thanks for sharing your Insight.

george.


Thanks George! That really means a lot. I'm glad that it was of use. God bless!
Logged

Foxx

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2011, 01:37:09 PM »

I had been putting this off but I wanted to add something to this in regards to the word "torment". I recently learned that the word "torment" comes from the word "basamos" which is the Greek word for a Touchstone. For those who don't know what a touchstone is exactly, it is a stone that is used to test the quality of a piece of gold. Jewelers still use them to this day. They would rub the gold on the touchstone then apply an acid I believe to determine its worth. The words torture, torment, etc all came from this word basamos. It is the same word used in Revelations and in this parable that Jesus provided. Anyway, just thought I would add this for you guys! Thanks!
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 09:34:43 PM »

I had been putting this off but I wanted to add something to this in regards to the word "torment". I recently learned that the word "torment" comes from the word "basamos" which is the Greek word for a Touchstone. For those who don't know what a touchstone is exactly, it is a stone that is used to test the quality of a piece of gold. Jewelers still use them to this day. They would rub the gold on the touchstone then apply an acid I believe to determine its worth. The words torture, torment, etc all came from this word basamos. It is the same word used in Revelations and in this parable that Jesus provided. Anyway, just thought I would add this for you guys! Thanks! 

Hi Foxx,

This is exactly the kind of stuff that gets the old juices flowing, or perhaps I should say gets my attention and curiosity piqued...

As I began to look into this a bit I found (ironically?) that there was a segue into Lamentations (an item of recent interest to me), the book that is authored by Jeremiah (under divine influence of course) and is an incredible combination of hope, retribution, empathy, fear, forgiveness, love, hate and all the other things that comprise our journey and interaction with all our brothers and sisters (family, world, church, and BT etc.) here in this earthly experience.

Have a look at this;


Lam 4:2  The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!

The Potter!

Isa 64:8  But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

In the KJV the word "torment" only appears in the NT and as you brought out it is primarily translated from the Greek word "basanizō" which in the Strong's/Esword variety only gives secondary definitions such as;

G928
βασανίζω
basanizō
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

But if we go to the Lexicon we find the number 1 or primary definition is;

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

5a is interesting but a whole other subject...

The only time we see "torment" in the NT from a different Greek root is in 1John.


1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.G2851 He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

We could read that as being fearful is like being in a prison.

Very interesting stuff to say the least. Here is some info on "touchstone" ...


A touchstone is a small tablet of dark stone such as fieldstone, slate, or lydite, used for assaying precious metal alloys. It has a finely grained surface on which soft metals leave a visible trace.

Thanks for stirring and inspiring this study,

Joe


     

 
Logged

cjwood

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 05:15:13 AM »

just got my computer back after a few days.  this thread and the post replies are so appetizing that i am watering at the mouth thinking about all the wonders of our LORD that have been brought out in these words of His Spirit through His children here.

gotta go to bed now.
claudia
Logged

dave

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2011, 01:09:00 PM »

Great post Foxx and everyone else! Beautifull, for me it just brings His Love into a greater focus. He is so wonderful. :)
Logged

grapehound

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2011, 07:28:27 PM »

Be encouraged Foxx ! this is a great thread, thanks.

Every Blessing

Grape
Logged

Foxx

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2011, 03:04:24 PM »

Wow everyone, I am so glad that God was able to show you a truth through something that I have written. And thank you for that Hillsboro! Your mentioning of 1 John 4:18 cleared up another thing myself and a friend were talking about so I learned something just now as well! Thank you again everyone! God Bless!
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2011, 08:00:42 PM »

Wow everyone, I am so glad that God was able to show you a truth through something that I have written. And thank you for that Hillsboro! Your mentioning of 1 John 4:18 cleared up another thing myself and a friend were talking about so I learned something just now as well! Thank you again everyone! God Bless!

Hi Foxx,

You are very welcome, as I stated earlier topics such as this usually get me motivated to search deeper.

This is in no way saying that I see little merit in so many of the other topics presented, only that my field of insight and interest are often within the narrow peripheral vision of my current state of interest.

Threads that descend into argumentative debating and an obvious lack of any attempt to understand another point of view with a blatant disregard (especially) for others who put time and effort into sharing insight are not uplifting or edifying.

This was a blessing for me.

Peace and thanks,

Joe

     
Logged

Dawidos

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2011, 09:11:50 AM »

Wow, I like your analysis of this parable very much. Great work, Fox! It's very helpful to divide a parable on parts and make some comments to each of them. I paid especially my attention to the word "until". It's hard to imagine that if humanity thinks torture of prisoners is inhuman and morally wrong, so God has less mercy than us, because he's going to do this for eternity. Of course there is an option of total annihilation (erasing from existence which could be a counterpart to death penalty in the mortal world), but in this case God would have a very small family if he decided to annihiliate all unrepentant sinners and unbelievers. Am I right?
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2011, 10:27:41 AM »


Dawidos,

Quote
Of course there is an option of total annihilation (erasing from existence which could be a counterpart to death penalty in the mortal world), but in this case God would have a very small family if he decided to annihiliate all unrepentant sinners and unbelievers. Am I right?

Yes, if He did not save all His family would be much smaller. But much more important it would mean Christ failed to do what He was sent to do.

John 3:17  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Here is part of an email where Ray discusses this whole idea of annihilation.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm ---------------------

Although the Christian world as a whole despise the NWT, their own King James is very similar, with the one exception of most of mankind being NOT SAVED by "eternal annihilation" rather than "eternal torture." Either way, both teach that God will utterly fail in saving all of His children. This does not speak well for the most powerful and most loving Father in the universe!

The Watch Tower does, however, publish a book that I use ALL THE TIME. It is very helpful in MANY places. It is the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT. Do you have a copy? Have you not notice how DIFFERENT it is from the NWT? Maybe just one example will put you on the Rod to a whole new world of Scriptural Truth discovery.

Matt. 25:46, NWT:

"And these will depart into EVERLASTING CUTTING-OFF, but the righteous ones into EVERLASTING LIFE."

This translation is very similar to the KJV:

"And these shall go away unto EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into LIFE ETERNAL."

The only real different in the NWT's translation of the compound, "cutting- off" instead of "punishment."

Now then, let's check the Emphatic Diaglott:

"And these shall go forth to the AIONIAN CUTTNG OFF; but the righteous to AIONIAN LIFE."

This is a MUCH improvement over the King James and the NWT. The Greek word "aionios" or "aionion" never EVER means "everlasting" or "eternal." NEVER. For proof of this read the first ten pages of my letter to John Hagee in the paper "EXPOSING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT" on my site.

The Watch Tower's Diaglott has this word translated CORRECTLY--it is "aionian" or "eonian" or (if we must use a compound, "age-lasting" or "age- abiding").

But, although the Watch Tower's Diaglot has "eonian" it TOO, misses the mark by using "cutting-off" to translate the Greek word: "kolasis" which comes from "kolaza" which means "to CHASTISE." "Cutting off" is an aspect of this word, however, it is NOT it's primary meaning. It can carry the connotation of "cutting-off" (as in PRUNING A TREE), if the desired result is to IMPROVE rather than destroy or annihilate. This word is used only a couple of times in all the Greek Manuscripts. Here is the other place it is used:

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has TORMENT [Greek: kolasis]..." (I John 4:17).

Is John really telling us that "fear" causes "CUTTING OFF"?? That's absurd.

The proper translation of the word "kolasis" is neither "punishment" OR "cutting-off"--it means "CHASTENING OR CHASTISEMENT" -- to bring about correction, making something RIGHT -- RIGHTEOUSNESS: God's judgements (chastisements) bring about RIGHTEOUSNESS in the WICKED. That IS the result of God's Judgments. Just for curiosity's sake I checked the NWT translation of Isaiah 26:9 with regards to what happens when God really begins to send forth His JUDGMENTS into this earth:

"...because when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn" (NWT).

Here, even the King James is a better and more accurate translation:

"...for when Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD [all of them] WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (KGV).

YES THEY WILL. They will NOT be ETERNALLY annihilated, neither will they be ETERNALLY CUT-OFF.

There is a world of difference between the words "punish" and "chastise." Chastise carries to meaning of CORRECTING, MAKING RIGHT, ETC. Therefore, it can NEVER EVER BE EVERLASTING OR ETERNAL, as anything that is eternal NEVER fulfills its goal of "correcting or making right"!!

The reason most translations do not translate this verse in Matt. 25:46 correctly is not because it is that difficult to translate; it is not. It is because of the RELIGIOUS BIAS of the translators. And so the King James makes it appear that people will be "PUNISHED [tortured for eternity in fire) and the NWT make it appear as though it is "eternal," however, not eternal conscious suffering, but rather eternal cutting-off from God or literally, eternal annihilation. BOTH ARE DEAD WRONG!

This verse should be translated as follows:

"And these shall be coming away into CHASTENING EONIAN, yet the just into LIFE EONIAN."

And that is the meaning of the Greek words in this verse. It's just that theologians cannot then UNDERSTAND this verse. It doesn't fit the preconceived ideas of the Christians, nor does it fit the preconceived ideas of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 10:44:38 AM by Kat »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.052 seconds with 22 queries.