The character of a person.

[GaryK]

No, I'm not angry with God today, or at least I haven't shaken my pip-squeak fist at him yet.

But I didn't get my usual talk with God this morning over coffee on the porch (too cold and snowy and I was in touch with my feminine side, ie:-stay in the house by the fire (the smart side of femininity), besides he's been hiding behind a bush (just a picking on you L&F     ).  

So I'll ask you all.  

Yes, I know Ray's covered this somewhere, several places, (I'm counting on you all), and I've most probably read it too, but, if you've read any of my postings I'm at least honest to say the 'free-will'...or the lack there-of...is elusive to me.  You could say a reading comprehension FAIL.  

Here it (they) are:  

Does God make a person what they are?

ie, the character or personality of a person?

And here's some definitions to point more of what I'm asking:

1. the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.
2. one such feature or trait; characteristic.
3. moral or ethical quality: a man of fine, honorable character.
4. qualities of honesty, courage, or the like; integrity: It takes character to face up to a bully.
5. reputation: a stain on one's character.
6. good repute.
7. an account of the qualities or peculiarities of a person or thing.
8. a person, esp. with reference to behavior or personality: a suspicious character.
9. Informal . an odd, eccentric, or unusual person.
15. status or capacity: the character of a justice of the peace.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/character



Some people seem very blessed in all they do, some people don't seem to be at all, I mean in just about nothing, including life.

If so, why would God do such a thing?

Seems lopsided to the point of absolute absurd.

gk

[mharrell08]

Does God make a person what they are?

Yes, but not in a direct way as most people think. People are shaped & developed into the person they are because of their surroundings & circumstances from the moment they are born until the day they die. It is through these surroundings & circumstances that God makes a person into who they are.

Your parents, extended family, neighbors, classmates & teachers, co-workers & bosses, etc. all play a part in developing one into the person they are & will grow to be. Not to mention life events that happen which also play a major part into the kind of person one is.

But all of God's sons & daughters go through chastisement, in order to molded into the image of God:

Heb 12:5-7  ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Prov 3:11-12  My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[GaryK]

Does God make a person what they are?

Yes, but not in a direct way as most people think.

through chastisement, .........molded into the image of God:

Heb 12:5-7   despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Prov 3:11-12  despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:


Hope this helps,

Marques

It does Marques.  Thank you. 

Does Ray go into detail of the following?

chastening
rebuking
correction

If so, where?

How does one know which is which, and when it's occuring?

gk

[mharrell08]

It does Marques.  Thank you. 

Does Ray go into detail of the following?

chastening
rebuking
correction

If so, where?

How does one know which is which, and when it's occuring?

gk

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 14 (http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html):

TURNING OUR IDOLS OF THE HEART INTO POWDER

In Ezekiel 14:7 we read:

    "For every one of the house of Israel [WE {Gentiles} are now the circumcision of God, Phil. 3:3. WE {Gentile believers} are the true Jew, Romans 2:28-29. WE {Gentiles & a remnant of racial Israel} are the spiritual Israel of God, Gal. 6:16] or of the stranger that sojourns in Israel, which separates himself from Me, and sets up HIS IDOLS IN HIS HEART..."

We all have "idols of the heart." Whenever we disobey God, we are giving allegiance to and manifesting idols in our heart.

When ancient Israel turned from God, they too manifested the idols in their hearts by building a literal golden calf idol with which to worship. And what did God do through Moses?

    "And he [Moses] took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire [don't forget I Cor. 3:15], and GROUND IT TO POWDER, and scattered it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it" (Exodus 32:20).

How many understand our Lord's statements in Luke 20:17-18?

    "And He beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner? Whomsoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will GRIND HIM TO POWDER."

When we fall on the Stone (Jesus), we are broken. Or as John tells us in Revelation,

    "And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH..." (Rev. 13:3).

Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God's Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.

But here's the good news concerning this stone. If we are among the chosen that overcome, then the Stone falls ON US, and our spiritual house built upon the sand comes crashing down. And when Jesus falls on us, He GRINDS US [along with all of our idols of the heart] TO POWDER!

Remember we are but "clay" in the hands of the Master Potter, and clay consists of particles of sedimentary silicates of aluminum less than two-thousandth of a millimeter in diameter—in other words, very fine powder. In Ancient Israel, the sin offering, the peace offering, the meat offering, and thank offering all had to be made with fine flour. All of the universe is composed of very fine things.

All of the instructions on what was to be offered to God in the service of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, who was to offer it, and how it was to be offered is not just quaint little stories of history:

    "Now ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENED unto them for ensamples: and they are written FOR OUR ADMONITION, upon whom the ends of the world [ages] are come." (I Cor. 10:11).

Christ is representative of all and every one of these sacrifices. And

    "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He [Jesus Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17).

So, when we read of the fine flour, oil, salt, and frankincense in the Old Testament offerings, we must understand that WE TOO are to be like fine flour—spiritually humbled and ground fine like powder, oil—having the Spirit of God in us, salt—we are to BE the "salt of the earth," and frankincense—our very lives becoming a sweet smelling incense to our God.

Some of the things we must go through seem bad on the surface. But as in all of God's dealings, what appears at first to be something horribly bad, is in reality, only a necessary stage in the process of overcoming sin and self so as to be qualified to reign with Christ in bringing the rest of humanity into a knowledge of the Truth, redemption, salvation, and finally, glory.


Chastening, rebuking, & correcting are all very much alike, and could even be thought of as the same. One usually does NOT know when it is occurring, but will eventually realize after giving up.

That's why it's likened to being 'grounded into powder'...God will wear you down until you give up. Only after we give up do we look to God for complete dependence of our needs. This will happen in every facet of our lives until we submit completely to Him. I know this doesn't sound like a pretty picture, and that is why Paul says 'don't be weary, know that this is how God deals with His sons/daughters' [Heb 12:5-7 - paraphrasing]


Marques

[Kat]

Gary, I do believe that God is ultimately in control of all those things you mention. For Him to be sovereign and keeping this whole thing together He must be in control. He in perfect wisdom and knowledge is doing exactly what He KNOWS is the best way for all this to be done.

If so, why would God do such a thing?

Well, this world is very complication, people are all living in a great diversity of situations and added to that the different characteristics and personalities and you have the set up for all the unique individual human beings that we have.

God is aware of EVERYTHING that is happening, omnipresence. But not only does He know of it all, He is working it all together and as things effect one another, so everything that is happening is all interweave. This is an incredible complex and intricate world we live in, yet God is not only aware of it all, but in control of it all. It just blows your mind to consider all He is doing, our little finite minds just can't comprehend.

But this is all the process for the creation of a family and not just a large number of people, but of individuals of great diversity. We see this in the world all around us, look at the differences in the animal world or the birds or fish or insects. But this human creation is to be so much more extraordinary and incredible in its outcome, because we are reasoning, thinking, calculating people. The end possibilities are tremendous and magnificent! We are so fortunate to have life and be any part of this creation.

Just wanted of share my thoughts.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

From a certain perspective it seems exactly as you describe ~ absurd.  Enter one tiny catalyst of information and the whole thing jells. Any wonder that we perish for lack of knowledge yet in another place, the Scripture says much knowledge makes ill the heart and more knowledge puffs up to pride that precipitates a fall. So where is the line and the balance and the sense of this knowledge that we need, yet don't need too much of, and too much will cause us to fall flat on our faces?

It is all in the balance, knowledge, supreme understanding and Presence of God everywhere.

He is calling all the shots all the time. We are in a time and human frame, in an experience of our God making us in His Image. We want to see what He is doing but at best we faint when He gets too close to the bone. We pass out when He gets so near we lose strength and energy by contrast to His Mega Power Supremacy. Just recall the times when you sat in the dentist's chair and heard the drill or slammed on breaks to avoid a car accident. See what I mean? We simply just don't recognize Him in our present mortal structure of perceptions.

He even tells us that He speaks to us in our dreams, and visions are His Forte. Those things you cannot go out and purchase, beg, borrow or steal and there are many counterfeits in life. The true God Gifts of perceptions, insights and language of His Love to our deepest most unexposed places within our souls, are His to Give. He is the lover of our souls.

The stuff we are made of is just a particle of that which is God who is all, everywhere, all the time, before and beyond. Figure that out without blowing a gasket of carefully placed mental alignments and comfort zoning of emotional dispositions proportioned to the desire frame capacity of our being and whoops...we fall off the ceiling, Scriptures and all.

I am so with you on this one gk but let me assure you, it is far better to fall off the ceiling than to be gravitationally pulled to the floor to feel the strength God has placed within the centre of our earth that blocks out the light like a black hole. Also, a black hole as such, is not a hole,  but an intense density where light disappears. So what's that if there be no darkness in God if such a thing as a black hole or a dark night can actually present itself to our perceptions and blindness?  What's that but a human testimony of our fear that God might not be and is not necessarily everywhere all the time for us in our estimate and perception, because in our carnal, mortal and fear prone vulnerabilities,  we can and do visit those places in mind, heart and body where God doesn't appear to be anywhere insight! Those places are real and they hurt like proverbial hell.

That is why we need each other to remind one another we are not without God, when we fall down or just crawl out of a tumble into fear and suffering. We need each other's assurances and affirmations that God is not asleep or absent, ever!

God is not only in our minds and perceptions that can and do exhibit A Class illusions of such magnitude we can experience death, and heart stopping moments of fear and anxiety, all brought on by our situations in a our individual worlds that are so real to our nerves and physical anatomies and emotional physiologies, that we need support and comfort in our realms of human experiences and circumstances. Yet, though seeming not always to be so, God IS beyond, in, around, with and holding us, all the time and He is not alone for He is accompanied by with through and in His Son Jesus Christ, who's Spirit is also in us. What an uncanny formula. What an unimaginable combination. Who would have thought it.

To put into practice the delight of awareness of God's presence inside out and outside in, is a Gift of God. That Gift is real, precious and valuable above any asset of material wealth or physical prosperity.

Think why and how God can give you a thrill of joy and appreciation, just with a cup of coffee, and the next, with the same cup of coffee, annihilate that joy and make it feel like it was never there, can never return and even if it does or can, you feel you will not appreciate it ever again. Did you not know you gave your cup, your porch and the joy of your horses in your soul, to us, here? We received it. Well I certainly did. May it return to you and carry forward into your cup, the heat of the sunny days here in SA and the tears of the rain, only God can return to you to mirror His face in the simple, uncluttered pleasure of His Love.

After the thief came to my home, I thought I'd never again be able to enjoy the ambiance of the nature that surrounds my house, yet again, God proves infallible and can cause me to catch myself enjoying again, the beauty He makes possible and accessible, to perception just as surely as He can cause you to catch yourself long after you have accepted you can no longer enjoy the coffee and the porch, He will meet you right there and give you His joy again despite all the snow in Antarctica .  He's like that and shows again and again that He can raise the dead despite us being contained in this mortal combustible earthen vessel that is the self, where resides the negative experiences of God's seeming absence, that feel more certain, more powerful and more real in its time and presence than the feelings of joy and peace that can be shattered at a moment's notice. That's a human perception and God given experience.

One moment you are sharing your joy and cup of coffee on the porch and the next, it is snowed out and you are lamenting before the fire that is the next port of call God has given to you to meet your needs for comfort and rest. Return to the fire tomorrow, and He, God can be gone down the road to the next port of call He causes you to encounter of His wind of a Spirit type reunions that are illusive, unadvertised and certainly cannot be retained by our company nor commanded by our needs. The Song of Solomon is an etude to the wispy, willowy yet not flimsy fabric of love presence God can and does continually give to us.

May He continue to meet you on the Porch, in the glow of the warm fire and in your cup of coffee and neigh of your horses. Just put Him nowhere and He can appear everywhere. Stop looking for Him and He can show up everywhere. Stop calling Him and He can make you hear Him in the neigh of your horses, like He did with my cat sitting on my toe. But look for Him, try to catch Him and He will evade you every time. He likes you to seek Him or He wouldn't tell you too, but stop through sheer exhaustion and lament for His Love and Presence and Here He is....He is looking at you as you read these lines for His eyes are your ability to see and His Mind is your ability to comprehend and His Heart He shares with very few at a time, among which you belong, for you have seen His Blessing to you on the Porch, in the coffee and in your deepest most soft feelings of need that He couches before the fire of His Warming Love for you.

The best possible answer to God could be silence.......that,... kind of hush.....He's here...welcome and revered.

blessings
Arc

[GaryK]

I'm hearing you all, and thank you for your valuables.   It (all things) seem too massive over eons for such control as small as building the character of a single person in such a dynamic universe and beyond.   Looking at the world, both the good and the bad, they're overwhelming.   And I see people who've never seem to have had a chance at life, and some who've 'got it all'...and appreciate none of it, and some who seem stuck wandering...and wondering...altogether.  And then I have to wonder....where is God in this mess that...that person over there.....got the short end?...is that some sort of chastening, rebuking, character building, or just flat out he doesn't care.  And that's as far as I can get.  Then the anger comes.  I can't see the 'good' because it's in the future and known only to God.     And right there is the point I realize HIS faith is needed, not mine, which I mentioned in another topic posting.  THERE is that tiny catalyst, I think Arc, it seems to me.  But, just exactly who controls that giving of faith?...he does.  And then I think, why doesn't God just give this faith to those who need it, speak to them, and then I remember Ray saying he does speak, right in the scripture he does.  But, he gives both the antenna and controls the reception.  So some remain lost while living in this world.  Massively mystical.  And still, there are people in this world who are hurting, badly, not just with debilitating physical pain but those with debilitating mental insufficiencies.  Some are living in horrendous conditions, some are living nightmares of torture controlled by other despicable beings........all.......that could be resolved by just the smallest glance from his direction, or the smallest merciful thought.

But nothing.

Quagmires.

Arc, that quiet you speak of, I probably need it most in my head and my heart, a silence for awhile.  But I swear where I live you couldn't get more quiet.  Even the crickets complain most of the time.

My spirituality, 'a' faith, what I once thought I had a good amount of, and so ignorantly proud of, is eroding to nothing.

gk

[Deborah-Leigh]

At least you know what is happening yet are still to experience the beyond the eroding to seemingly, nothing.

We see God in hindsight, here, in this reality.

He is in front of us, but as we are, we would die if we saw Him. He is changing us so after we have died, eroded to nothing, we shall live to see Him and never be without Him again, as where He is, we shall be too....

The silence in your heart and mind, only He can give though the crickets complain.....

You are on His radar....

Arc

[Kat]

Gary, we are just in the first stage, the age of Satan, so to speak. We are in the middle of all the turmoil, it's like we can not see the forest for the trees, right now and we do not really understand what is yet to come. But I am convinced in the next age all these terrible and evil things that are happening will be vindicated and rectified in the most just way! All things are possible with God (Matt. 19:26; Mark 10:27, 14:36).

Well it's only natural for us to resist the pain and evil while in the flesh, even Jesus Christ despised the shame of the cross (Heb 12:2). We should hate sin and the evil it brings and we are learning to do just that.

So I believe for a certainty the God that I have come to know is only putting us through this evil experience (which is actually for our good in the long run), because of the justice all will receive that He has already prepared for them in the next age.

Rev 21:3  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v.4  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5  Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
v. 6  And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
v. 7  He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Gary,

Your post here, the original topic's premise as well as the excellent responses from Deb, Kat, John & Marques inspired me to attempt to add a few of my own observations from personal experience, with His Word and a small dose of (mind bending) science... 

I'm hearing you all, and thank you for your valuables.   It (all things) seem too massive over eons for such control as small as building the character of a single person in such a dynamic universe and beyond.   Looking at the world, both the good and the bad, they're overwhelming.

Overwhelming is probably stating God's designs, power, mind and plan (for creation) lightly.

Not that I am saying you purposely understated this truth but rather that we as finite, incomplete, natural men (women too obviously) cannot at this time begin to truly comprehend His majestic work, or as Isiah stated (in Chapter 28) "His strange work"...

For one small example of this strangeness I want you to consider the simplest, most common element in the universe. Hydrogen. We all know that everything in the physical, natural state is made up of atoms and that the most basic of atoms is hydrogen. But try getting your mind around this illustration of the simple one proton, one electron element.

Take an object approximately the size of a soccer ball to represent the proton, the electron in scale would be about the size of one pixel, if you have trouble picturing one pixel imagine instead the size of a dot made from a fine point pen.

To get an idea how atoms and therefore everything physical is mostly empty, actually an illusion, this proton (soccer ball) in scale is 11 miles away from the pixel. Yes, the hydrogen atom has that much space between the proton and electron. The link below illustrates this further;

http://www.phrenopolis.com/perspective/atom/

Who could have dreamed this up?

Contemplate creation, contemplate design, control and wisdom down to the smallest detail, this is our God, this is our Father! Our own personal Father who wants us to be His perfect children. And He is indeed a Master of detail!

And I see people who've never seem to have had a chance at life, and some who've 'got it all'...and appreciate none of it, and some who seem stuck wandering...and wondering...altogether.  And then I have to wonder....where is God in this mess that...that person over there.....got the short end?...is that some sort of chastening, rebuking, character building, or just flat out he doesn't care.  And that's as far as I can get.  Then the anger comes.  I can't see the 'good' because it's in the future and known only to God.

Gary, just as our physical reality is virtually imperceptible to us so is the way God forms us as individuals, as I have shared in the past both of my parents were considered back in their day to have had no chance in this life to be productive citizens, serious physical handicaps plagued both of them, my Dad from birth and my Mom from a severe dose of Polio at 2 years old. They both were too stubborn and too motivated to accept this fate, where did this "spirit" come from? They both eventually were gainfully employed, were independent and yet struggled with the day to day physical activities before the time of handicapped parking, electric shopping carts, wheelchair lifts on buses, etc.

My parents belonged to a club of other handicapped people some of whom were actually in a much worse physical condition than they were, double amputees, paraplegics, quadriplegics, cerebral palsy, you name it and I bet one of their friends probably had it. I knew these people from my earliest memories but I have no memory at all of any of them complaining (not that they didn't at times, but I never heard it) or say they were dealt an injustice, they were who they were, they accepted it without malice or a sense of being owed anything...

Where did this strength of character come from?

My spirituality, 'a' faith, what I once thought I had a good amount of, and so ignorantly proud of, is eroding to nothing.

Please don't be troubled Brother, this sentiment is part of this fleeting experience that will culminate in an immortal, perpetually perfect existence, just like the memory of our childhoods where some situations seemed endless (now in perspective they were a very short time indeed) this life too will seem to have been a very small price to pay for the endless treasure and glory awaiting us soon.

There were a few verses that came to mind as I was writing this, I hope you can see some relevance; 

Psa 139:13  For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Ecc 11:5  As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.


Isa 44:24  Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


Isa 49:5  And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.


Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Jas 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

And especially;

Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Amen!

Peace,

Joe
         

   

[lostANDfound]

hi gary, just wanted to let you know your efforts weren't wasted- you made me smile! 
some wise words here, i appreciate the "balance" of plain logic, scripture and science.  i don't have any pearls to add.  you're in my thoughts and prayers gary. 

thanks for keeping the door open for your family here on BT to be a part of your journey.

[GaryK]

Thank you all for your responses and I hope others reading this topic will be rewarded as much as I have.  There are words here that I consider to be wise, beyond years, full of faith, so much so, that Christ himself must be smiling.   I'm going to roll all of it around for awhile and, perhaps, given his touch it will lodge itself in memory and become the armor needed when things of this evil world weigh down, as it does so much on each of us from time to time, and especially for those who must live day to day with challenges some of us can't comprehend at all.   For them, especially, blessings are needed and prayed for.

I'm reminded of the apostle Paul, my favorite, who was inspired to write the words:

1Co 3:2  I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Not saying I am being fed the 'meat' by no means but surely there must be transitions where he takes/carries each of us over the rocks and mountains, as much as we can tolerate, just like he did Paul and the disciples and many others preparing each in stages for what lies ahead, known only to him. I believe that's where we may get the 20/20 hindsight that Ray teaches and Arcturus has reminded us.

Thank you all.  I'll shut up now.

gk

[judith collier]

Dearest Joe, you reminded me of situations from my childhood. Perhaps your parents and their friends, ( I don't know your age) were of my generation. I was thinking how their characters were formed and by what experiences and I remembered way back when. I am 69 this yr. In all honesty I can not recall ever having been shown sympathy. I remember walking to kindergarden and was so depressed i wanted to cry but I would never had thought of telling someone because the usual answer would be, "just stop that, you'll make yourself sick" Believe me when I say people didn't regard their children as special as they do now-a-days. "Be grateful for what you have, God never promised you riches" was pretty staple spiritual food. One learned quickly not to complain. Nor was one allowed to envy thereby making yourself sick once again (in some very deluded way the gospel was preached) "I'm your father and that's your mother and don't even think about saying another word". 
A person had to turn to God or at least believe in His existence. Heaven was something to yearn for, it surely wasn't on this earth. And if you made it through childhood emotionally scarred for life at least you were toughened up for the road ahead.
love, judy

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Judy,

Actually I am still an immature youth of 56 years...

I can just imagine the groans of horror from our 20 & 30 something years old members and guests as I describe myself as a "youth" but in many ways that is how I feel...

My health has been excellent (of course that could change tomorrow), I wake up every morning ready to tackle the day (I understand someday it will tackle me) and I can't wait to learn something new each and every day (but the more I learn, the more I realize how little I actually know).

When I compare my own experience growing up to what my folks, their generation and the subsequent generation (that's you!) dealt with I (and my peers) have been pretty insulated and blessed beyond what most human beings have had to endure throughout history. My generation, the baby boomers (in America especially) may very well have been the most blessed generation in recorded history (but what are we leaving the following generations?).

Of course it is all relative, a unique perspective from the vantage point of the time one is born into (no free will there obviously) and God has placed us here in a particular environment (time, place, parentage, etc.) that suits Him (and us by extension) to culminate His plan and purpose to create a perfect Family!

How do the all details fit?

Your observations are at least as good as mine but with faith we go forward confidently along our bumpy, snake infested path...

Yes, I agree totally that being pampered with this notion of catering to a child's (or anyone's for that matter) "self esteem" without regard to behavior or achievement is a recipe for disaster, my folks never mentioned their own tribulations as they implored, no they demanded responsibility from us. I never once heard from them that we had it better than them nor did I ever hear how life treated them unfairly, they never sought to gain compliance from us using themselves as people worthy of our sympathy.

Actually I never even realized that my parents and many of their friends were handicapped or were "different" at all as a young child, that is until I began school and heard some of the mumbling from other kids about Joe's "crippled" family, that is a whole other story and I won't bore anyone with the details, but it did have an effect on how I related to some of those classmates and neighborhood kids through the years (not positive). I will only say that it was the reverberations from outside our family that embittered me toward many, it was not any negative, feel my pain, poor unfortunate me attitude from the afflictions my folks endured...

In their minds they were up to the task no matter the obstacles.     

I appreciate both of them more each and every day, in a strange sense their (temporal) curse was my blessing.

Peace to you Sister,

Joe             

[Dianne]

Yep John,
It seems we are all too soon old and too late smart!