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[Deborah-Leigh]

I have to scram to Google....

[Deborah-Leigh]

......whew....have just cracked "Cro Magnon" in Wikipedia...there is loads of rich deposit, eye witness news there!!

Will need to dig, Grape. Thanks for the find!!

Gone underground.....

Arc

[Deborah-Leigh]

Back up for air.....

The "quantum leap" is the evidence of God, bringing into His Design, the presence of what Ray identifies as the "more advanced human"!!!!

Excellent gift of evidence Grape....

Arc....off to reflect on the dirt on Troglodyte man, and the Glory of Gods breath forming Adam! 

[Kat]

And also if Adam was created and eve formed,how were the people
before them made?

Walt, well how were all the other creatures brought into being? I in no way believe in evolution, that life started from a chemical soup or something. So God must have created the earliest of them to get the ball rolling with animals, birds, fish and the first male and female human.

Now as far as deciphering all the nuances of Neanderthal and Cro Magnon and all those that came before Adam, it interesting, but how can we possibly figure that out?

But I do believe that the "more advanced human" that Ray was referring to is Adam. Adam walked with God for possibly many years even before Eve was brought into the picture. Do we think Adam was just sitting around doing nothing all that time? I know he named the animals, but what else was he doing? God must have taught Adam many things. There are ancient discovery that boggle scientist minds as to how these things were made, as they could not, with all our technology, reproduce them. Another thing they had knowledge about the great expanse of the universe. Surely God gave Adam some masterful knowledge from which this race of people used to excel in, thus the "more advanced humans."

Just some thoughts.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Stacey]

"did some people existed b4 adam was created?"

Hi there Olasupo Jacobs. I don't know, I wasn't there and have no proof of such a thing.

What do the scriptures tell us about people before Adam? Not much if anything at all. Certainly, we have not seen much scripture presented as proof for it yet in your topic.

What does that leave us with? Theory and speculation.

How about Scientific evidence? The problem with scientific evidence for anything is that it is really easy if we are not very careful, to run out of real science and into theory and speculation. Too much scientific evidence is corrupted with just that and especially when it comes to things or the possibility of things or people existing millions of years ago or even a 100,00 years ago. I have come to believe that when presented with a theory that starts out with a statement along the lines of "millions of years ago," a long thought out fairy tale or theory is about to follow after.

Although I do think it is interesting to think on a little bit, people before Adam, I also think it's a deep rabbit hole to go down and a dark one at that. But, what do I know, not much so, maybe we will get a rock solid answer to your question before its over. 

[Dave in Tenn]

I'd ask you to consider what Ray actually said, and in saying what he did and did not do in the Nashville '08 conference where this subject was initially hinted at.  He taught from scripture that truth in science is part of the truth of God.  He did not present a scientific theory, but he debunked one (or two) and taught what could be understood from scripture and a basic understanding of natural history--that is fully in line with the stated scriptural purpose of B-T--to expose those that contradict and to teach sound doctrine.  And he showed that once again (as in many, many other cases) theologians get it wrong and teach the traditions of men instead of the very words of God...they parrot what others have said rather than reading what God said in scripture--ALL the words, comparing Spiritual with Spiritual, having two or three witnesses, etc. etc.

Now we're at this point, and already (still) speculating.  It's understandable.  Everybody like a sexy new subject.    (though this one is not entirely new)

Is anybody here really, truly knowledgeable in science?  If so, do you also have a knowledge of the scripture?  If so, do you also have the spiritual 'chops' to follow God's rules for interpreting Scripture?  If so, are you foolhardy enough to attempt to do that on Ray Smith's website?    Has Ray?

Nobody can tell anybody what to think about this 'information'.  Everybody is going to do what they want.  We've really got no choice but to attempt to do what we want.  Then we learn that we can't.    That's the way God planned it.

I'll certainly agree with Stacey that--despite my feeling very old, I wasn't literally there either.  The contemplation of the physical in any of scripture has got to be incomplete.  Sciences like the many branches of natural history are also incomplete.

I'd urge everybody who finds themselves fascinated with this subject to read/view or re-read/re-view the Nashvill '08 conference materials (including the bible-study following the conference) to get a better grasp on what Ray is talking about, from his own mouth, and also what Ray is NOT saying.  

  

[mharrell08]

I'd urge everybody who finds themselves fascinated with this subject to read/view or re-read/re-view the Nashvill '08 conference materials (including the bible-study following the conference) to get a better grasp on what Ray is talking about, from his own mouth, and also what Ray is NOT saying.

If I may Dave and I agree with your overall message. The only thing is Ray did not talk about this subject at the actual conference. For all those who did not attend in 2008, there was a Friday informal meet & greet with Ray. I was there, Kat, René, Joe (Hillsbororiver), along with a host of forum members and other people of similar interests.

Ray went into mankind existing before Adam, using the scriptures that spoke of Cain & his wife building a civilization [Gen 3:16-17] along with mankind being 'created' in Genesis 1 and Adam being 'made' in Genesis 2. It was an eye opener, but there was no depth given. Not that night or even throughout the conference.

Now the conference spoke of ALL creation being created 'for' 6 days, with days representing periods of time, not literal 24 hour periods. Scientific evidence, along with scriptures, were used to debunk the popular six 24-hour days of creation belief as well as Noah's flood being worldwide. We can go through the conference notes and see multiple witnesses to these things.

However, this new subject, that Ray only briefly touched on in a recent email, does not have the same depth or scores of scriptural witnesses. There are a few, but not many. Does it mean it is not true or important because there are only a 'few' scriptures that speak about it? No, but it also means there is not a lot of solid foundation for us to stay on.

For most of us, the overwhelming scriptural witnesses that Ray uses in his teaching were the tool that God used to open our eyes to the true gospel. These new comments don't seem to have that same overwhelming scriptural support. So there's only so far any of us can take this, at least on the forum.


Just my thoughts,

Marques

[Samson]

Hi Everyone,

I am quite satisfied with Rays recent Email and subsequent response to Jake(Understanding Genesis). Ray explains the difference or distinction between Genesis Chapter 1&2 emphasizing the difference between Two Hebrew Words. ASAH(MADE)-Genesis. 1:26 and YATSAR(FORMED)-Genesis. 2:6. Genesis. 2:3 doesn't say their wasn't Mankind. I guess people just assume there weren't any, like all of us did at one time. Apparently, Adam and Eve were the beginning of an Agricultural Type of Mankind, because up until their Creation, there was " no one to till the soil." None of this information should necessitate or require that we believe that these Hunters and Gatherers prior to Adam/Eve had inferior Brain development requiring that they were likened to "Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, Australopithecus, Pi ltdown Man or any apelike creature. Just like certain Civilizations and groups of People throughout the Centuries are Technologically advanced. The Pygmies or Aborigines contrasted with the U.S. or European Nations, these Hunters/Gatherers were not as Technologically advanced as Adam/Eve(Agricultural). None of this knowledge about their existence requires that Adam and Eve were Types or shadows. Insofar as I'm concerned, they were literally/physical people.

After I'm done gabbing, I will include information of Ray's from two sources(The Fathers Will Conference & that recent Email). Also, their are many specific details that the Scriptures don't elaborate on. This brings to mind whats written at John. 21:25 " And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the Books that would be written. Amen." What we have as Bible Canon(Genesis thru Revelation) contain enough of a Translation difficulty & controversy as recently shown from Ray's explanation of the first few Chapters of Genesis in that Email. Imagine having several more Books that are accepted as Scripture. Also, whenever Mainline Christianity(Orthodoxy) has a preconceived or established Doctrine on a particular subject, they will do whatever's necessary to suppress or explain away any Scriptural Information(meanings of Greek & Hebrew Words, Proven Scientific Discoveries(not Evolution) in order to maintain the Status Quo. They do this with everything else, so why not with any proof substantiating the existence of Humans created prior to Adam & Eve. They do this with Spirit, soul, The Resurrection, God's Nature, Punishment, Free Will anything that that threatens their "Cherished" Beliefs. so they translate Words a certain way in order to support their Doctrines. Most Forum Members have different skills at being able to gain understanding of What Ray teaches. For Me, it's definition and word usage as exemplified in Ray's explanation of ASAH & YATSAR in that Email response. For others it's the Scientific information, etc, etc. Ray excerpts from below.

Points from Genesis Understanding Email in Blue.

RAY'S COMMENT:  Chapter two does not contradict chapter one. The order in chapter one is plants, animals, and then humanity.  Is this not the order found in the geologic table?  Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.  In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations.  Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground."  There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers.  God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land.

The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation.  God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens."  God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them.  This obviously took years.  Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).

It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.

From The Fathers Will regarding Adam/Eve.

Gen. 2:18 God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him."  
 
But not now, we have to name the animals, and keep tilling the garden, we’ll just keep doing this.  But if you going to believe orthodoxy, it’s 6 literal days, you got to fit it in there.  It all happened in late afternoon, you know, between 3:00 and 6:00, well whatever.
God did not have to repeat that it’s not good that this man should stay alone, because he went 2 hours without a mate, give me a break.   I mean I’m sure he had a lot of testosterone, but I don’t think that he couldn’t go 2 hours.  I’m thinking it was years.

And what I am saying, in my heart and mind I don’t believe that Adam tilled the garden and took care of the garden, and how big was it?  1000 acres?  I don’t know how big it was, he took care of all that and then he named all the animals and everything in a few hours before sunset.  I just don’t believe that.  I believe it took certainly months, if not years.  
And if God was just going to create Adam and say ok, now one of your jobs in the future is going to be to keep the garden, no.  Now He was saying it to him then, you might say ok some of it you and your wife are going to do together later,  no then.  
He gave it to him now, and by the way, when you and your wife are taking care of the garden I want you to name the animals.  He had to name them then and after he named all 6000 species, guess what?  There was no one for Adam, there was no one for him.  Can’t you see the longing here, over a long period of time?  I think it was at least years.  He didn’t have a mate, he looked for one and even God admitted that it was not good for man to continue forever without a mate.  I’ll make him one, but not today.  Now, then He says but there was none found for him.

Gen 2:21  So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
v. 22  And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

So we’re told God took a "rib" and closed it back up and made a woman out of the rib.  Now He then said, wake up Adam I’ve got something for you.  He wakes up Adam and He brings him the woman, Eve.

Gen 2:23  Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

She is part of my own bones and flesh, "this is it," Adam exclaimed.  So first of all he was excited.  I mean what a beauty, I mean come on all for me.  But it was at least... you know he waited a long time, finally after all these years, finally someone for me.

How did he know it was bone of his bone?  How could he look at Eve and say, you came out of me?  What did he see?  God didn’t say, 'Adam I know your going to wonder where this woman came from, I put you to sleep and I took a rib, I made her.'  No, he could tell, he looked and saw and he said that’s me, you come from me.  How did he know that?  He looked, he had something before he went to sleep, he had something and when he woke up and God brought him to the woman, he didn’t have it anymore.  She had it!  What do you suppose that was?  He (just like God) was male and female.  God is male and female, Adam was male and female.  God took the female part and made a woman out of it.  Adam saw that what he had was now gone, it’s over there.  She came from me, that’s bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, she came out of me.  

Now can you see any spiritual connection in all this?  How God is longing for a compliment, a counterpart, someone to compliment someone.  It says a counterpart in the Greek, a compliment, or a help meet.  A counter part for Adam that was not found, now he has a compliment, a counterpart to him, to make him complete.  

That’s what God is longing for.  Where is it going to come from?   Out of Him.  He has one Son, Jesus Christ, we are sons in the making.  So where did Christ come from?  

In the Hebrew the word is no. 6763 - tsela, and it can be translated ‘rib,’ and door, side and chamber.  In Ezekiel 10 times this same word translated rib is translated chamber.  A chamber-maid is usually some one who tends to the house, but specially the bedroom.  If you look up chamber, the definition is a private room.  The bedroom is your most private room.  Our sexual anatomy is called our private parts.  Can you put it together?  This is not a rib.  He took the femininity from him and made a woman.  First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it.

Now an interesting thing.  It says in Tim. 2:14, that when Eve took the forbidden fruit she was deceived, the serpent had deceived her.  But Adam was not deceived.  Well if she was deceived, and she ate the fruit.  Why did Adam eat it?  He wasn’t deceived, so why did he eat it?  Why didn’t he say you dumb female, you stupid wife of mine.  How could you do such a dumb thing.  No, no he did not.  She gave him some and he ate it too.  
Why would he do that?  He knew.  Because God told him first, and He told him specifically.  And we know Eve knew because she said to the serpent, “God has said.”  But first He said it to Adam before he created Eve.  You can eat of every tree but of this tree you can not and the day you eat there of you will DIE. (Gen. 2:16-17)
In the Hebrew, ‘to die you shall be dying.”  You will begin to die, you will be mortal and just die.  You will be mortal and come to old age and die.  So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die.  He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die.  He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I’m going to die with her, and he ate the fruit.  He knew full well he would die, and he said I’m going with her.  I’m not going to let her go alone, you see.  So he was willing to die for that woman.

Hope this helps & doesn't add confusion, maybe I'll comment at a more convenient time regarding the Resurrection aspect of these Hunters/Gathers and probably regret it,  , .

[hillsbororiver]

Excellent points Marques, I agree wholeheartedly.

I must admit I find this type of speculation and theorizing fascinating but at the same time tempered by how others especially new members and guests might perceive this type of topic. Going even further if we are perceived to encourage broad speculations where is the line drawn on other subjects that appear to still be either hidden or not apparently addressed in scripture.

Believe me I empathize with the moderators! 

Peace,

Joe   

[gmik]

Hello all....I was at the conference and Ray did talk about the Clovis Indians about 15-20,000 years ago on our continent.  I have the book and the notes from that conference...and I left believing that there were people before Adam.  If they are saying Adam was about 6,000 years ago, well science has proven over and over about people living all over the globe much longer than that.

For me, I would never ever broach this subject to ANY one- I can't explain it like Ray and why open up a can of worms??

Also men never were Neanderthal...entirely diff. species.

IMHO   

[One Love]

Hey people, c'mon
You all take Mr. Smith as your god, he's not, Jesus in the flesh was not GOD, like he said in Mathew to the rich man, no body is good except the father. Mr. Smith said this & Mr. Smith said that, wake up! Mr. Smith also said that you must be led by the holy spirit to undersatand spirit, how many of us know the holy spirit??? It's good to quote scripture and second Mr. Smith in every post, who's fooling who?

Get on your knees and ask GOD, just don't post Mr. Smith's quotes & think that's fine, understand for yourself, suddenly Mr. Smith is your messiah, c'mon you false followers, all of you, gain knowledge by yourselves, leave Mr. Smith to do what GOD called him to do! we all just want to add and take off others, be what GOD callled you to be.

How do we know if Mr. Smith is right! because our carnal minds said so. "who believed our report"
wake up! we fools!

[Dave in Tenn]

Hey people, c'mon
You all take Mr. Smith as your god, he's not, Jesus in the flesh was not GOD, like he said in Mathew to the rich man, no body is good except the father. Mr. Smith said this & Mr. Smith said that, wake up! Mr. Smith also said that you must be led by the holy spirit to undersatand spirit, how many of us know the holy spirit??? It's good to quote scripture and second Mr. Smith in every post, who's fooling who?

Get on your knees and ask GOD, just don't post Mr. Smith's quotes & think that's fine, understand for yourself, suddenly Mr. Smith is your messiah, c'mon you false followers, all of you, gain knowledge by yourselves, leave Mr. Smith to do what GOD called him to do! we all just want to add and take off others, be what GOD callled you to be.

How do we know if Mr. Smith is right! because our carnal minds said so. "who believed our report"
wake up! we fools!

Please.  I don't take Mr. Smith as my god or messiah, nor do I know anybody else who does.  To discuss what Ray teaches may not be the meaning of life, but it is the purpose of this forum.  

There's very little I knew that was genuinely true until somebody taught me.  In my case, that person was Ray Smith.  He gets double honor from me--not worship.  Please don't call me or our members fools.    

[longhorn]

1Luv  I know exactly how your feeling.  One morning when I was 5 yrs old, my mom made some hot chocolate before we went to school and she gave us some of those mini marshmellows to put in it and somehow before I was finished, one of them ended up my nose ( just trying to see if it would fit) and anyway, we couldn't get it out before the school bus came so I had to go to school with a dang marshmellow stuck in my nose.  All the other kids laughed and I got reeeaaallll angry with them.

Longhorn

[Kat]

Hi 1Luv,

Hey people, c'mon
You all take Mr. Smith as your god,

You haven't been here very long and don't know us very well. But if you accuse somebody of something that is not true, you are bearing false witness. We respect Ray as our teacher and one that is helping us understand who Jesus Christ and the Father really are. Your stating that we consider him more that a man is an insult to our belief and understanding of the soverign God.

Jesus in the flesh was not GOD

Is not a son that comes from his father, of the father? Well 'GOD' the Father said that Jesus Christ was His Son.

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

mercy, ,peace and love
Kat

[Dennis Vogel]

Jesus in the flesh was not GOD

Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[walt123]

Hi , 1LUV

I guess,if you need to be technical,

Psalm 82:6 (New Living Translation)

6 I say, ‘You are gods;
you are all children of the Most High


.John 10:34-36 (New Living Translation)
34 Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures,that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’ 35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ 36 why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world.

 
Exodus 22:28 (Amplified Bible)
28You shall not revile God [the judges as His agents] or esteem lightly or curse a ruler of your people.

gods-strongs H430 and G2316 Refer to-

A magistrate is someone who has the authority to enforce laws, typically within a limited jurisdiction such as a province or county. The exact role of a magistrate within the legal system varies, depending on the nation which he or she serves. In some cases, for example, a magistrate is a judge who serves at a very high level, while in other instances a magistrate is simply a justice of the peace, charged with enforcing minor infractions.
The word is derived from the Latin magister, which means “master.” Around the Middle Ages, the term “magistrat” emerged in English, referring to a civil officer charged with enforcing the law, and in 1374, the modern form of the word emerged. The underlying concept of a magistrate is quite ancient; the Romans, for example, had civil officers much like our modern magistrates.

And yes Ray is a leader and teacher of Gods  people.

All is good .

Walt.

[cjwood]

oh dear iluv.   i believe our magistrate mods are not smiling.       

play nice luv.  it's all good.  we know Who He Is that we should worship. 

claudia

[cjwood]

wtf ?    Claudia!  Remember.  You're a nice lady.   

ya must have been readin my mind john.  i was just modifying my comment when you made yours.  need to remember scriptures that hillsbororiver posted in another thread about following Christ's example.

thanks for thinkin 'bout me bro.

claudia

[Oatmeal]

Genesis Chapter One

Genesis 1:26-27
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis Chapter Two

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:21-24
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

New Testament

Matthew 19:4-6
And he answered and said unto them,  Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female [Genesis chapter 1], And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh [Genesis chapter 2]? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mark 10:6-9
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female [Genesis chapter 1]. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh [Genesis chapter 2]: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

[Craig]

oh dear iluv.   i believe our magistrate mods are not smiling

Can't speak for everyone but I'm actually quite amused and smiling.

Craig