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[hillsbororiver]

Hi Everyone,

I have been perusing threads and the one theme that has stuck with me the most right now is how some of us can at certain times become frustrated, angry, maybe even doubtful or antagonistic toward God, maybe all of the above...

Myself included.

After speaking with a Brother yesterday about our faith, our tenacity for obtaining Truth and spiritual growth and how the world with all of it's horrific injustices, lying, self serving leaders of government (all governments, all political persuasions) and the incendiary cheer leading from some in the many media outlets that inflame carnal passion (the hateful kind). We found that both of us had been drawn into worrying about tomorrow, letting the world trouble our spirits.

Have we not been clearly warned, advised, commanded not to do this?

Maybe you are not drawn into political discourse but rather, the day to day hassles we experience, no job or a crappy job perhaps with course coworkers and/or a boss who plays favorites and does not readily appreciate or praise the consistently good (or better) work we might do.

Maybe it is how (we presently perceive) the unfair burdens placed along ours paths, whatever they might be...

You know the particulars of what troubles you.

Knowing that these are not new feelings and that the patriarchs and prophets of the OT especially, and even the apostles (Paul included) devoted many words to this dark, bumpy, hazard filled path we journey on, sometimes we wonder or cry out, WHY?

Why doesn't God open our eyes wider to see more completely what is the real purpose of this whole trip?

What is the reasoning? In plain, simple language thank you very much.

Why must there be all this anxiety, pain, suffering???

What is up with all the secrets, hidden wisdom and all of that?

We just might have the answers...

Psa 119:2  Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

Psa 119:4  Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. (Read this one a few time and meditate on it)

Psa 119:5  O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
 
Psa 119:6  Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Psa 119:12  Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:15  I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

Psa 119:18  Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Psa 119:19  I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

Psa 119:73  Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may that I may learn thy commandments.

Joh 14:21  He that hath my commandments(G1785), and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

See that? "Keep my commandments" (and then He will manifest Himself to us?). So is He speaking of the 10 commandments? So if we don't (physically) murder, steal, commit adultery, bear false witness etc. He will give us a deeper knowledge and relationship with Him?

I know, too many questions...     

Or is it something else?

Look at the Greek root of G1785 which appears in John 14:21, it is a bit more than commandments, it is all of what our Physician has shown us;

G1785
ἐντολή
entolē
en-tol-ay'
From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.

OK, I think I might be getting something here, if we want more wisdom, a deeper insight and a better understanding of the purpose of all this and perhaps a deeper glimpse into the mind of God, we just might want to obey (ALL of) what He has shown us so far, when we get there He just might (no, He promised to) manifest* Himself to us!
 
MANIFEST

1: readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight

2: easily understood or recognized by the mind

Hmmm...

So if we use what He has given us up to right now, if we live within the wisdom He has shown us presently, if we diligently follow Christ's example, we are promised even more of a revelation of God, a deeper understanding of His plan and purpose for all of us. Sounds like a fair deal. Doesn't it?

Think about it, did we get more privileges (or a higher allowance) as a child before we met the obligations our parents set before us?

Did we get to high school before graduating grammar school?

Promoted to a better job before mastering our present job?

You get my drift...     

Peace,

Joe

[waarheid77]

Hi Joe,

 Glad you came back. I asked about you before and, told that one I hoped you came back. He agreed.

 Now as for what you said. I agree about that. The problem is we look to the outside. I was told to look inside and would see what caused all my problems. I did. Horrified at what I saw. The false charges and all the lies about me. I caused all of them. Wow, who is to blame? ME! God caused nothing that happened to me I did. Forgiveness? As much as I prayed to forgive them I deluded myself into thinking I had. One night at a store the cashier named Dawn said you are full of anger. I said what! She said you have not forgiven people. I had said or done nothing to show her this. Almost a year later. They were forgiven. It took that long to teach me. Now if I think of them I would love to embrace them. A lot of difference. I contacted several and told them I was wrong and was sorry for what I said. Did not seem to be a bad saying.
 So the problem is deception.
 All of us place everything on the outside. God is not interested in our outside. It is what is in the heart. How we think. What we think.
Christianity blames satan. This place blames God. Yes, God is all in all. He does not cause us to do the things we do.
Raise a rock and He is there. See a tree, He is there. He is in everything. So He is all in all.
I see many false statements here. A little leaven leavened the whole lump.
There are several ideas on this forum that are not right.
 
 We are told to put on the mind of Christ. He was not critical, jugdemental, condemning, and never got angry with God.
Can we see the mind of Christ here? Answer it for yourself.
Consider this and see if it is correct.
Spell Check satan with a S (not)

Again welcome back Joe
In Christ Jesus Love and grace to all
Ken

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joe,

 Glad you came back. I asked about you before and, told that one I hoped you came back. He agreed.

 

Hi Ken,

Thank you!

 Now as for what you said. I agree about that. The problem is we look to the outside. I was told to look inside and would see what caused all my problems. I did. .

I can't totally agree that you "caused all your problems" but I can understand that the choices you made once you were "caused" to deal with certain situations left you in a bad place.

God caused nothing that happened to me I did.

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jer 10:23  O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct  his steps.

Lam 3:9  He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.

He may beg to differ Brother...

Hi Joe,

Forgiveness? As much as I prayed to forgive them I deluded myself into thinking I had. One night at a store the cashier named Dawn said you are full of anger. I said what! She said you have not forgiven people. I had said or done nothing to show her this. Almost a year later. They were forgiven. It took that long to teach me. Now if I think of them I would love to embrace them. A lot of difference. I contacted several and told them I was wrong and was sorry for what I said. Did not seem to be a bad saying.
 So the problem is deception.

It is true that most of us are very easily deceived but I sincerely believe that often the root of our spiritual stagnancy is impatience and our own expectations, we are on God's timetable He is not obligated to ours. The sooner we realize this the more we are at peace with our particular circumstances. I am not saying I myself hold true and fast to this all the time as I am an impatient bullheaded beast all too often, but usually after a period of humbling and being caused to consider all the ramifications of my own choices (not free will but decisions made within a finite set of choices) I understand that seeking to follow His "prescription" is the only cure for our spiritual shortcomings.      
 

 All of us place everything on the outside.

Once again I have some agreement but I cannot say this is an exclusive truth, some of my very worst moments are when I forget I am forgiven and I obsess over things I have done in my past, confessed and asked forgiveness for, if my faith was stronger I would believe (consistently) that these things were behind me, I realize then that I have still a very far road to travel.

Outside events can and do have a very profound effect on us when we ignore our Lord's admonishments to "not be troubled..."  
 

I see many false statements here. A little leaven leavened the whole lump.
There are several ideas on this forum that are not right.
  

Ken, perhaps you could be more specific here, I certainly would not dismiss what you say out of hand or by loyalty to any man but that is a very easy accusation to make without more details to define exactly what it is you are speaking of.

All here are in need of having the old leaven being purged from us bit by bit, there are few who would dispute this.

 We are told to put on the mind of Christ. He was not critical, jugdemental, condemning, and never got angry with God.
Can we see the mind of Christ here? Answer it for yourself.
Consider this and see if it is correct.
Spell Check satan with a S (not)

The mind of Christ is our goal, not our present state, I do not think anyone was able to make that claim here in the flesh, did any apostle, or did Paul ever say they possessed the total mind of Christ? Did any of the writers of the Gospels or any scripture proclaim they had arrived at spiritual perfection?  

Jesus was critical of His own disciples (if you need chapter and verse I will provide them upon request) He was critical of the Pharisees, Sadducees, the leaders of the Synagogues especially and He was critical of those who love their life here in this world as well.

Spell Check satan with a S (not)

This might well be a matter of personal taste as the proper English would have anyone's name with a capital first letter, even that old serpent Satan or satan...  

Peace to you Brother,

Joe
    

[walt123]

Hi,Joe

I agree what you said,and I would like to add a analogy,there is a movie called
"Ground hog day" starting Bill Murray;
we start off the same way when God starts working with us,
than as days go by, after day, after day, and so on ,we should be learning and fine tuning
our character.
Until a day we wake up and see who really was in control of our growth,and become thankful.

And It's easy to look to much on self and what the world has to offer.
But I wonder, if we would look and see what we do have now,it would be more than,well lets say
people from 2000 yrs ago,they would say we live like royalty, as kings and Queens,would they not?

So in closing,mediation, reflection, and humidity is the order a the day.

Philippians 4:11 (New Living Translation)
11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have.

Walt

[grapehound]

I blame global warming for that humidity, Walt.

[Roy Coates]

Hi,Joe

I agree what you said,and I would like to add a analogy,there is a movie called
"Ground hog day" starting Bill Murray;
we start off the same way when God starts working with us,
than as days go by, after day, after day, and so on ,we should be learning and fine tuning
our character.
Until a day we wake up and see who really was in control of our growth,and become thankful.

And It's easy to look to much on self and what the world has to offer.
But I wonder, if we would look and see what we do have now,it would be more than,well lets say
people from 2000 yrs ago,they would say we live like royalty, as kings and Queens,would they not?

So in closing,mediation, reflection, and humidity is the order a the day.

Philippians 4:11 (New Living Translation)
11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have.

Walt

yes indeed I can and do relate to this movie/analogy often

[walt123]

Hi,grapehound   

You got me.

I am hoping it gets warmer soon in us.pa.


Walt.

[Stacey]

Hi Joe and welcome back to BTF, always did get some meat out of your input and its easy to see that you still have the fire within.

I've read what you said here a few times over last night and again this morning. I definitely relate to a lot of it as I have been in a spiritual slump for way too long now. It was good for my spirit (not just my eye's) to take in what you had to say and yes, I get the picture.

Then, on the other hand. Reality, which sucks some times, sets in and I struggle with things like the no free will thing, believing it but struggling with it sometimes. Reason I mention no free will is to me, it relates to everything you said here.

Yes we have been warned.

Then some like me, go and do the opposite anyway. Why? <- See there I went and done the Why? I know we have to actually do the doing part of our journey even though we are caused to do it but dang it, it surely ain't just that simple or is it. Sometimes I think, just live and everything will fall into place and other times its, no, I gotta do this thing or that, speaking of the learning process, but there is no drive or desire to do it. Why? Well, if I'm on the right track in my thinker, because I have been caused to not have the desire or want to! <- Is this right?

Yes we should know well that in order to get to a higher level of understanding, the level we are on must be mastered first. I totally agree but what part of that is under our control? None of it. So as much as I really appreciate what you said here and agree with it I'm still stuck in a dry place but I am thinking on it harder now and that is a good change that I know happened after reading your post here so, I really do thank you for your thread. I'm gonna read it again.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Walt,

One of my favorite Bill Murray movies, he has had quite a few good ones in my opinion. Caddy Shack is probably my #1 though, an all-star comedy lineup in that one!

Back to Groundhog Day, he had a big advantage in that every day was exactly the same in regard to the series of events he dealt with and overcame, we have to deal with unforeseen new issues, some from way out in left field, totally unanticipated. Imagine the "perfect" day any of us could eventually have if we had unlimited do overs.

Hey, maybe that will be what the LOF is like! Probably not...

Peace,

Joe     

[hillsbororiver]

I blame global warming for that humidity, Walt.

Hi Grape,

Global warming is so 2001 Brother, don't you know it is "Climate Change" now? That term tends to cover everything. You know I must be way too young (56 y/o) to remember when the weather, every day of every year was exactly the same... Gee, kind of like Groundhog Day!

We have come full circle here. 

Hi,grapehound   

You got me.

I am hoping it gets warmer soon in us.pa.


Walt.

Walt, if it makes you feel any better it is 70 degrees, nary a cloud and very sunny here in Florida!

Peace Brothers,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joe and welcome back to BTF, always did get some meat out of your input and its easy to see that you still have the fire within.

Hi Stacey,

Thank you very much for the kind words Brother!

I've read what you said here a few times over last night and again this morning. I definitely relate to a lot of it as I have been in a spiritual slump for way too long now. It was good for my spirit (not just my eye's) to take in what you had to say and yes, I get the picture.

Then, on the other hand. Reality, which sucks some times, sets in and I struggle with things like the no free will thing, believing it but not struggling with it sometimes. Reason I mention no free will is to me, it relates to everything you said here.

Yes we have been warned.

It is true we do not have free will but we do have certain decisions to make within a finite set of choices caused by circumstances totally outside of our control. We really don't even have any guarantees that the decisions we do make will turn out as we hoped. Of course there are always those pesky unintended consequences that rear their ugly heads all too often...

Just as Solomon prayed for godly discernment when he became king, we should be doing the same, I fail at this as often (probably more often) than anyone else but after the conversation with my friend I realized that the root of my stunted spiritual growth was due to falling back into old habits that tend to lead to frustration, anger and even hate, not exactly spiritual fruits.

Then some like me, go and do the opposite anyway. Why? <- See there I went and done the Why? I know we have to actually do the doing part of our journey even though we are caused to do it but dang it, it surely ain't just that simple or is it. Sometimes I think, just live and everything will fall into place and other times its, no, I gotta do this thing or that, speaking of the learning process, but there is no drive or desire to do it. Why? Well, if I'm on the right track in my thinker, because I have been caused to not have the desire or want to! <- Is this right?

You are not alone, Paul also spoke about knowing what is right yet doing what he had come to hate, he lamented over his own failure to be true to his beliefs consistently, it keeps us humble and keeps us striving if we do not forget the goal. But if (like me) we constantly do things we know are not beneficial to our spiritual growth how can we expect to grow spiritually?

It is kind of like bemoaning the fact that we cannot lose weight yet make it a point to take a stroll through the bakery every day. We have some decisions to make within the limited choices we do have available to us. Can we with our "free will" make bakeries disappear? Can we with our "free will" impose upon the bakery to only make low calorie healthy sea weed pastries? Obviously not. But we can decide to walk past the bakery without strolling through or we can make an even more radical choice to take a route (maybe walking an extra block or two in the process burning more calories) that would not even put us into a close proximity of that dastardly bakery. I will bet a dozen donuts that God will not grab you by the ear and drag you inside... Although down the road He just might cause you to have to be near the place and make another decision from the choices available.

Yes we should know well that in order to get to a higher level of understanding, the level we are on must be mastered first. I totally agree but what part of that is under our control? None of it. So as much as I really appreciate what you said here and agree with it I'm still stuck in a dry place but I am thinking on it harder now and that is a good change that I know happened after reading your post here so, I really do thank you for your thread. I'm gonna read it again.

I do believe we have a role in this process, if not why didn't He just create a bunch of remote controlled androids to amuse Himself with? He desires children who only want goodness and to share His Mind and Love, He has determined our experience of evil in this present existence will bring that desire to fruition, we will come to a point where we thoroughly despise evil.

Do I claim to understand His "strange work" completely? No. But what I have been reminded of is that if we deal faithfully with the (very limited) knowledge we have been given so far then more understanding will be our reward!

Thank you for the thoughtful testimony, questions and observations, this really helps me to get a better understanding as well.

Peace Brother,

Joe   
   
 

[Dave in Tenn]

Also been considering this thread.  An illustration:  My dad had a good sense of humor and outlook.  When his kids (my sisters and I) were young and complained about our aches and pains, sniffles and twinges, one of his favorite replies was to say "That's what happens just before you die."  

Remembering that makes me think of this walk having much more to do with dying than with living.  Being crucified with Christ, the seed falling to the ground and dying, reckoning oneself dead, dying to self, and many other truths that might not 'say' death, but Spiritually mean the same thing.  This is the point I am at, have been at, and will likely be at for a while longer.  Faith tells me to hang on.  It was the Father's will that Jesus die.  He was obedient even unto death.

Heb 12:1-4  ...let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.  Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.  In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Nope, I haven't resisted Spiritual sin to the point of Spiritually shedding my blood.  That would mean dying, and who wants to do that?  Yes, indeed, it is a strange work He is doing.  Pretty danged strange to say he who looses his life shall find it, and for Paul to say, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live."
    
Seems there is another kind of death, maybe, unless I'm just not getting it.  It's the death that comes from being carnally minded.  In his later years, my Dad's sense of humor and good outlook faded under the assault of religion, politics, and media much like your OP mentioned.

If it was easy to figure this stuff out AND do it, seems like some denomination or another would have done so by now, written it in a pithy statement in their creed, and taught it succesfully in Sunday School.  Hasn't happened in 2000 years.  That's the way God planned it.    

[Kat]

This no free will thing is certainly difficult to nail down, for any of us. But what really helps me understand His sovereignty is knowing God is in EVERYTHING!

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and in Him ALL THINGS consist. (NKJ)

Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him." (CLV)

Col 1:17 And, he, is before all, and, they all, in him, hold together; (Rotherham)

When you come to where you really comprehend that IN HIM "all things consist" or "has its cohesion" or "hold together," then you can see there is no free will. He knows all things because He is in all things! He knows when a sparrow falls the the ground, He knows the number of hair on your head (Matt !0), why He has named all the stars!

Psa 147:4  He counts the number of the stars;
       He calls them all by name.

So yes we have no free will, but God is creating through this incredible human experience a multitude of thinking individual. All of us have varying degrees of interests, likes and dislikes, skills, talents, etc. and that's what a part of this experience is about. In the process of being created into His image through this physical experience He is making us all into different, unique individuals.

Psa 147:5  Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
       His understanding is infinite.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[DougE6]

Hi John
Don't you think you OVER emphasize the NO Free will truth?  I don't ever hear you talk about trying with effort to resist sin, to put forth any effort. What are you going to do with all those scriptures that tell us to WRESTLE, to PUT OFF, to RECKON OURSELVES DEAD, TO PUT ON, TO RESIST, TO RUN THE RACE, TO BE FILLED, TO SEEK, TO SEEK-I say it again-TO SEEK and all those admonitions.  I do get the sense that you take your private interpretation of no free will too far.  If a fat man feels an impulse to go into the bakery, that he seems to weak to resist, well, its Gods will to go in, isn't it? Go eat, cause your too weak too resist!  Dont try to FLEE. Don't wrestle. Go in and sin. With that attitude almost all smokers would never kick the habit of smoking, almost all gold medal winners would of won nothing. NOTHING ON THIS EARTH EITHER PHYSICAL OR SPIRITUAL THAT IS WORTHWHILE IS ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT GREAT EFFORT> PERIOD.  Where is the talk of courage, of striving, of working at it until it is good?
It is true that you have to abide in the vine.  But if you were truly abiding in the vine, then your works would be really really good, would they not? The same works as Jesus?  If your works are not that good, then you are not abiding in that vine as well as you think.  Maybe God will grant those to abide in the vine to only those who really really want it. I do not see any whisker in the New testament about not striving with all our hearts. We are to strive withe all our hearts.  I will beg God to make and teach me to hear His voice, to teach me to abide in the vine, to learn that BALANCE between resting in Him and trying with all my heart. Balance, John, balance. We need more balance here.

[DougE6]

Hi John
I think that almost every alcoholic that has been freed from those chains of alcoholism will give the credit to God. They understand and believe that they were powerless and needed to RELY on God to accomplish their deliverance.  BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT TAKES GREAT EFFORT ON THIER PART! God while giving them victory does not remove the need to give effort.
Yes, on their own they do not succeed. Many have tried over and over, promised and tried, and failed.  But if they are to be rescued, in Gods plan and timing, there does comes a time that God takes them to the point where the desperately WANT and BEG to be rescued. Usually this is when they totally realize they have no power, no strength, and usually, their lives are in shambles.  Their beast is dying. They know they are powerless. Then God does intervene in a different way than before.  And He does give them the strength, the GRACE to say no, whereas the SIMILAR effort they put forth prior that was not successful now is successful.  Effort doesn't go away,  it is just that the hold that the beast had is broken, and God makes their efforts fruitful.
They all admit, even after years of being sober, that it is an everyday walk, that TAKES EFFORT!!!!!  Great Effort. They have counselors. They have someone they can call. They rely on God everyday.  They make a conscious effort to rely on Him. They actively say no every single day. It is more successful than before, as their own private beast struggled and died, at least in that area. So they have learned to rely on God and abide in the vine, but they still give their all. 
I reiterate the need for balance. Not a single alcoholic that I know, who has been delivered, says their was no need to struggle or faced/faces times of great temptations that try them severely. You make it sound like we don't need to sweat blood, sweat, and tears. That is false.
 
 

[DougE6]

Yes, and Jesus sweat blood in the garden of Gethsaname.  And Jesus fasted for 40 days and was extremely hungry. And he was tempted in all points as we are.  Even though God did the work, Jesus was the means, and He was very much in the thick of it, and suffered greatly in it, and yet He pressed on through and overcame, persevered to the goal, and pleased His Father. It was no walk in the park for Jesus.  Great effort He put forth, even though the Father did the work.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Those "itty, bitty, little bits" are the bad leaven!

Imperfect information distorts perception, and produces conflict.

Wisdom turns away, accompanied by sympathetic insight and considerate understanding.

Milk and meat don’t mix, is an experience we have to all suffer to endure learning.

God’s the Author of all.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Everyone,

Ray explains the difference between "making choices" and having (non existent) "free will" right here;

The Myth of Free-Will Exposed

There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be man’s ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all........................

It is useless to have a study on this term "free will" unless we stick to a strict, concise and precise definition of the term. As can be seen from our dictionaries, "free will" does not have for a concise or precise definition the ability to "make choices." Yet this is the way it is often defined.

Notice that our dictionaries are specific in stating that it is "FREE choice" that is the definition of "free will," rather than just "choice" alone. To be an expression of "free will," choices must also be free. Free from what? We just read it:

Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."

Free from "CONSTRAINT."

Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."

Free from "FATE."

Free from "DIVINE WILL."

Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."

Those who would argue for free will, however, refuse being held to these precise and concise definitions. They want the mere ability to "make a choice" to be considered an act of "free will." Well it is nothing of the kind. Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free will." This is easily demonstrated. Computers make "choices." They can make trillions of choices per second. It would take a trillion people to make that many choices in a second. All that these marvelous machines do is make choices.

Now then, will anyone contend that computers have unprogrammed and uncaused, free wills? So now we have proof that making choices is not the same as "free will."

We are not speaking of "Hal" in the Hollywood science fiction fantasy: "2001—A Space Odyssey." Computers do not have "free wills," yet THEY CAN MAKE CHOICES, but those choices are anything but free. Their choices are all a matter of PRE-programming. They cannot think and act independently of "causes." Neither can man think or do anything outside of the realm of "causes." In order for an effect to be present, there must first be a cause, and once something is caused, the effect must follow, and neither could have been prevented.

There is not one example that can be presented by scientific a method, that can demonstrate that man’s will is free from causality. Neither is there an example in all Scripture that can be shown to be the exercise of a will that is free from causality. And that certainly includes all that our Lord Himself ever thought, said, or did.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

I thought it would be a good thing to add this (also from "Free Will" Part 1)...

It is helpful to reread the articles from time to time.

I have said and taught for decades now that God never FORCED anyone to sin or go against whatever their will is at the precise time that his will is changed by a cause. Men volunteer to sin. They don’t need to be "forced"—they are SINNING MACHINES! Most men (not all) can be made to sin at the drop of a photograph. (That is, if the photograph is that of a sexy young lady in high heels and a mini-skirt). He doesn’t need to be ‘FORCED’ to lust and sin over the young lady, even though it may not have been his conscious will TO LUST just prior to seeing the sexy photograph.

Who created man with such passions and desires? Dah! Who created Testosterone?

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

Peace,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Very well edified Joe!

Our choices are our preferences.

Our preferences arise from our heart condition.

Our experiences purge to strengthen, our weak hearts.

God writes our circumstances to purge and purify our preferences to bring us into right standing with Him.

Potter and the Clay.

Arc