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[Chris R]

Hi Everyone,

Psa 119:2  Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.


so if we use what He has given us up to right now, if we live within the wisdom He has shown us presently, if we diligently follow Christ's example, we are promised even more of a revelation of God, a deeper understanding of His plan and purpose for all of us. Sounds like a fair deal. Doesn't it?

Think about it, did we get more privileges (or a higher allowance) as a child before we met the obligations our parents set before us?

Did we get to high school before graduating grammar school?

Promoted to a better job before mastering our present job?

You get my drift...     

Peace,

Joe

Hello Joe,
I couldnt help but notice something I hadnt before, In the verse you had quoted,[Psalm 119-2] does the blessing come BEFORE the knowledge...or After?....Think about it!

Is it Bless-ed is....or just plain Blessed!  Obviously the blessing IS keeping His Testomonies, And if your blessed, then I reckon It is not by our choice....see what i'm saying?


Chris R

[hillsbororiver]

Very well edified Joe!

Our choices are our preferences.

Our preferences arise from our heart condition.

Our experiences purge to strengthen, our weak hearts.

God writes our circumstances to purge and purify our preferences to bring us into right standing with Him.

Potter and the Clay.

Arc

Amen to that Arc!

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi John,

We are held accountable for our actions for good reason, because we desire from our heart to do the things we do. Yes God is the ultimately responsible, but we are the one who choose to do what WE want to and will be held accountable. Here is an email that explains this.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!  

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray

[DougE6]

You know, as I reread through all this banter, specially between myself and John, I think it is the word "effort" that seems to be the hangup. I think that No free will and great effort coexist quite peacefully, and they do not contradict.  Just because God arranges the causes, we still decide from our hearts condition, which God is very well aware of.  And God does not do the actual lifting, so to speak. He makes us actually DO IT! It is in the doing that great effort can be required.  It was very tough and took great effort for Jesus to carry out what God inspired Him and gave Him the heart to do. God never takes away the doing.

Ray has said this many times.  From the opposite side, from an evil work, God may arrange the causes or circumstances that are in action when a child molestor does his ugly stuff.  But God can hold and does hold the molestor accountable because he sins VOLUNTARILY. He sins from the heart, and his actions spring from his heart, even though it was inevitable that he would do what he did. He still is guilty, not God. God is not at fault or the sinner in the situation. Even though He steers eveything. The means, the man, still does the actual action, and this action requires effort, energy, and all that is required in doing an action.

My point still is the Bible is full of admonitions that we MUST judge ourselves against and strive to do.  The Bible is a cause in this instance. As God changes our hearts, and gives us the strength, we can fulfill the admonitions and do the works.  But we DO not know how far we are away from this obedience unless we try to obey.  We must always try to obey, and more and more try to learn how to depend on God and let God, through this, change us so our preferences are the same as Jesus preferences. We MUST WRESTLE< IT IS NOT BIBLICAL TO NOT TRY TO OBEY>

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Chris!

Great to hear from you Brother, it has been at least a couple years...

In regard to your comment I guess it would depend on what the definition of "blessed" is, in this case it is defined as happy.

H835
אשׁר
'esher
eh'-sher
From H833; happiness; only in masculine plural construction as interjection, how happy!: - blessed, happy.

But I think even if we use the broader definition or what immediately comes to mind when we hear the word blessed, that is "shown favor" or
given a gift, or born with an incredible talent, etc.

We might say both of your premises hold true, if anyone is given a certain amount of faith or wisdom and they do not exercise that faith or wisdom (or both) do they retain it? Do they continue to grow in faith and/or wisdom. However if these things are embraced by the receiver then the ensuing result would be an increase of these things.

The parable of the talents come to mind...

 Matthew 25

 14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

 15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

 16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

 17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

 18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

 19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

 20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

 21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

 22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

 23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

 24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

 25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

 26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

 27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

 28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

 29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
   

Peace to Brother and I am very glad to see you here posting!

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Great find on the email Kat!

Doug I am in total agreement with you Brother, I believe you nailed it!

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

My dad had a good sense of humor and outlook.  When his kids (my sisters and I) were young and complained about our aches and pains, sniffles and twinges, one of his favorite replies was to say "That's what happens just before you die."  
    

Hi Dave,

I like your Dad already! My family also had a wry humor without regard to over sensitive young egos... 

Excellent post all the way through Brother.

Peace,

Joe

[Stacey]

You know, as I reread through all this banter, specially between myself and John, I think it is the word "effort" that seems to be the hangup. I think that No free will and great effort coexist quite peacefully, and they do not contradict.  Just because God arranges the causes, we still decide from our hearts condition, which God is very well aware of.  And God does not do the actual lifting, so to speak. He makes us actually DO IT! It is in the doing that great effort can be required.  It was very tough and took great effort for Jesus to carry out what God inspired Him and gave Him the heart to do. God never takes away the doing.

Ray has said this many times.  From the opposite side, from an evil work, God may arrange the causes or circumstances that are in action when a child molestor does his ugly stuff.  But God can hold and does hold the molestor accountable because he sins VOLUNTARILY. He sins from the heart, and his actions spring from his heart, even though it was inevitable that he would do what he did. He still is guilty, not God. God is not at fault or the sinner in the situation. Even though He steers eveything. The means, the man, still does the actual action, and this action requires effort, energy, and all that is required in doing an action.

My point still is the Bible is full of admonitions that we MUST judge ourselves against and strive to do.  The Bible is a cause in this instance. As God changes our hearts, and gives us the strength, we can fulfill the admonitions and do the works.  But we DO not know how far we are away from this obedience unless we try to obey.  We must always try to obey, and more and more try to learn how to depend on God and let God, through this, change us so our preferences are the same as Jesus preferences. We MUST WRESTLE< IT IS NOT BIBLICAL TO NOT TRY TO OBEY>

Hi Doug, as I was reading aloud the back and forth between you and John I said to my wife, I believe they both right and agree with each other but I don't think they are agreeing to that yet! 

Really enjoying this thread.

[prarrydog]

I know this thread has gone in a bit of a different direction than the original post, but as I was checking the verse listed in the latest e-mail to ray "Homeless" I came across these verses which I think add a witness to what Joe was originally saying.  Funny how that happens huh?

Isaiah 58 - NIV

1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
   Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
   and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
2 For day after day they seek me out;
   they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
   and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
   and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
   ‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
   and you have not noticed?’
   “Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
   and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
   and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
   and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
   only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
   and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
   a day acceptable to the LORD?

 6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
   and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
   and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
   and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
   and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
   and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
   and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

With love
Scott

[Deborah-Leigh]

God gives us BOTH, the desire to obey, AND the outcome.

Paul explains what it is like to try and fail, and to try and succeed.
 
The trying/effort, is caused by God.

THAT we try, is not trivialized or dismissed. It is simply of God to try or not to try ~ to succeed or not to succeed.

I am happy to see you again ChrisR!

Blessings
Arc

[Stacey]

But I perceive the truth to be that 100% comes from God.

Absolutely, I agree and do not think that either Joe or Doug was saying anything otherwise. Even though the effort and ability is caused by God, we endure the process to succeed or fail in all our endeavors what ever they may be we still have to do the doing part of it (effort) no matter the fact that God is causing us to do it, we have to go through the process of Him doing it all.

I believe that every bit of what has been said does apply to Joe's initial post.

Some of us are angry and disgruntled at God, some of us have lost our way and fallen back into old habits and it is God that has brought about the circumstances that caused us to make the choices we have but it is also God that has laid down the law for us to obey His commandments, to want to, to desire to, to put forth the effort, to PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE from our current position, to SEEK FIRST THE FATHER for help to get back to Him and move on from not obeying His commandments and then, we will see improvement in our current status and relationship with God.

[Dave in Tenn]

Jesus is Lord.  I'll cop guilty to every sin I ever committed (and I'm far and away more perpetrator than victim).  I know I'm accountable and that 'to sin' is my natural state.  I am completely capable of sinning (in the falling short of the mark sense) even when I don't really want/mean to.   

But I don't believe I can be accountable for righteousness.  Even faith is a gift...and it's not even MY faith by which I'm saved/healed, but his.  For righteousness and Christ-likeness and bearing the fruit of the Spirit (and any other Scriptural expression of the same thought), I am not capable, even when I want to.  No amount of exertion is sufficient for that, except "struggling to enter rest".  I don't for a minute believe that "rest" is eternal retirement in heaven.  I believe it's keeping that Spiritual Sabbath and ceasing from my labor.

So I guess my dilemma is in trying to figure out just what it is I'm supposed to be striving for.  I confess I don't really understand all of what those words mean.  I'm just pretty sure they don't mean what the traditions of men and theologians say they mean.     

[grapehound]

Amen Dave,

[hillsbororiver]

I know this thread has gone in a bit of a different direction than the original post, but as I was checking the verse listed in the latest e-mail to ray "Homeless" I came across these verses which I think add a witness to what Joe was originally saying.  Funny how that happens huh?

Isaiah 58 - NIV

1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
   Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
   and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
2 For day after day they seek me out;
   they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
   and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
   and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
   ‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
   and you have not noticed?’
   “Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
   and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
   and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
   and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
   only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
   and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
   a day acceptable to the LORD?

 6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
   and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
   and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
   and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
   and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
   and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
   and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

With love
Scott

Hi Scott,

What you posted is an absolutely awesome additional witness to this topic.

I want to thank you and every single person who posted as it has all been beneficial...

I have more comments to make but I can't right now.

Thanks again Scott and everyone else as well,

Joe

[grapehound]

When we understand that we have no control and that God has total control, the centre of our confidence shifts from ourselves to Him. So it's only in our weakness that we are truly strong, because it's His strength we must rely on and His strength is boundless.
We are loved in our weakness. We must decrease and He must increase.

Grape

[DougE6]

Hi John
That was a nice email from Ray that you posted. But let us read it carefully.  I will quote the part of the email that DIRECTLY pertains to a statement you made which I feel is extremely dangerous to say.  This is the quote from Rays email which is the correct understanding and I do not believe your belief is in line with this.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

How could Ray say it any clearer than that?  NO GOD DID NOT IN REALITY KILL 6 MILLION JEWS AS YOU STATED. NO evil corrupt men, evil Hitler, evil camp guards, evil commandants, out of THE EVIL IN THIER HEARTS...they killed 6 million Jews. You have just blamed God by attributing this evil work to Him, DIRECTLY.  You said QUOTE...However, in reality, it was God the Father who killed the six million Jews..........I would NEVER EVER say such a thing. EVER. 

God may have planned that such would happen. He may have arranged circumstances to show the intense evil in these peoples hearts.  God full well knew what they would do. BUT GOD did not do it. THEY DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They did the actual work and they showed evil in their hearts and they are accountable and God is NOT the one who actually killed those jews.

God as the First and sufficient cause, does take responsibility and took responsibility at the cross, for all the evil acts that men would commit. No question.  And praise Him for that.  And our wills do bend to the strongest cause, and the strongest cause usually is  our exceedingly sinful hearts.

 But I would be a lot more circumspect in your language and in what you say.  I would not blame God for my evil acts or any evil acts of anybody. I am accountable, not God.

[Deborah-Leigh]

God is responsible for everything and everyone.

We are accountable. We shall give account for ourselves.

That is a beautiful connection God has designed that connects us intimately, personally and irrefutably, to His Mercy, Pity, Love and Sovereignty ~ but who will know it?

Arc

[Marky Mark]

John and Doug,what say Scripture concerning our reason for being...


Isa 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
 Isa 45:6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Psa 139:12  Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

 1Co 5:3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Ecc 9:2  All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [is] the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
Ecc 9:3  This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Its all of God...


Peace...Mark

[lostANDfound]

accountable - liable to account for one's actions; "governments must be accountable to someone beside themselves"; "fully accountable for what they did"; "the court held the parents answerable for their minor child's acts of vandalism"; "he was answerable to no one"

responsible - chargeable with being the author, cause, or occasion of something (usually fol. by for ): Termites were responsible for the damage.

[DougE6]

Everything goes down the way God intends it to go down. Everything. but all the sinning that takes place as God worketh all things according to the counsel of His will? All voluntary. Every sinner sins unforced by God, voluntarily. Hence the giving an account.

God doesn't FORCE anyone to sin. Hence we are all must give account.  In Josephs case, God caused Josephs brothers to hate Joseph by giving Joseph dreams that angered his brothers and also gave Joseph favored status with his father, which raised jealousy in them. Knowing the hearts of the brothers, and arranging events, it was easy as pie (for God)  to have Joseph thrown into a pit and sold to slavery in Egypt by his brothers. That was all of God. For a great purpose. But God did not force his brothers to do the evil they did.

I think this is the side of the teeter totter that is easily overlooked when we say everything takes place according to the counsel of His will. Everything does take place according to the counsel of his Will.  But God does not tempt anyone, they are drawn away of their own lusts.

Arc wrote a beautiful summation statement, IMHO. It spoke to me deeply. ....That is a beautiful connection God has designed that connects us intimately, personally and irrefutably, to His Mercy, Pity, Love and Sovereignty ~ but who will know it?...

I know it Arc...I just want it pointed out, some of those above subtleties, which I believe are easily overlooked, but are very important. I apologize if I came on strong, but I really believe it is a very important distiction to keep in mind.  God bless you all.