Man of sin and the flesh

[Oatmeal]

How does the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3) relate to or differ from the flesh?  What exactly is the flesh?  The lump of meat that desires to have sex and to eat pleasant food and to be comfortable, as opposed to the man of sin who, until exposed, resides hidden deep within, and who considers himself to be king and as God, or is one (just?) the outward manifestation of the other?  Is the man of sin our true self?  If he is, is that why he cannot be conquered by ourselves?

In our flesh there is no good thing (Romans 7:18).  What does it mean to walk in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16), and how does one walk in the Spirit, so that one does not fulfil the lust of the flesh?   If we mortify the flesh (Romans 8:13), this does not affect the man of sin?  He still remains and will remain until destroyed by the coming of Christ?  If the man of sin is our true self, and he is totally against God, then how does God give us the desire to obey Him, to mortify the flesh, and to walk the narrow way, and where in us does this desire reside?  How can it be even possible for us to have this desire?  I am not saying that it is impossible; I am asking how is it possible.

[Kat]

Hi Oatmeal,

This from the article 'The Beast Within' should help you with this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ----

                            JUST WHAT IS CARNALITY

What then is it to be carnal or carnally minded? It's not good, I can tell you that. It's a monster—IT'S A BEAST:

"for to be carnally minded is DEATH..."

And just why is that?

"Because the carnal mind is enmity [DEEP-SEATED HATRED] against God: for it is NOT SUBJECT to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [Gk: 'is ABLE']. So then they that are in the flesh [carnal-minded] CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:6-8).
v

Paul wasn't telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have been enlightened by God's word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.
v

And what does Paul tell us will be revealed AFTER we fall away?

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION" (II Thes. 2:3).

The beast, the man of sin, and the son of perdition are all one and the same:
v
The man of sin/son of perdition is UNIVERSAL and found in ALL MANKIND. THAT is how Satan deceives THE WHOLE WORLD (Rev. 12:9).
v

(whom [the beastly man of sin/son of perdition] the LORD shall consume with the spirit of His mouth [IN US—WE, believers and lovers of the Truth], and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming [IN US, making His presence known IN US, destroying the beastly man of sin/son of perdition IN US, making the 'Day of the Lord to be at hand' FOR US, and IN US] )! Let's read it:

"But WE [Paul and believers. NOT 'them' and 'they,' but 'WE'—'Lovers of the Truth'] are bound to give thanks always to God for YOU, brethren beloved in the Lord, because God has from the beginning CHOSEN you [called AND CHOSEN you] to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth: Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the OBTAINING of the GLORY ['That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be GLORIFIED IN YOU' Chapter 1:12] of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which has loved us, and has given us everlasting [eonian] consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work" (Verses 13-17).
v

THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!

But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).

In conclusion:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a trumpet... And I turned to see the voice that spoke with ME. And being TURNED, I saw seven gold candlesticks; [the complete church of God in all generations, with MY sins outlined in each and every one of them] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; [PURGING all who look upon Him] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned [refined] in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was as the SUN SHINING IN HIS STRENGTH [no longer a physical body with HOLES in it].

And when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],

FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).
----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

Is the man of sin our true self?  If he is, is that why he cannot be conquered by ourselves?

  If the man of sin is our true self, and he is totally against God, then how does God give us the desire to obey Him, to mortify the flesh, and to walk the narrow way, and where in us does this desire reside?  How can it be even possible for us to have this desire?  I am not saying that it is impossible; I am asking how is it possible.

"I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]"

------------------------------------------------------


Would we consider that God predesignated and that He thought about and planed all the millions causes over causes over generations that would end making a desire in our hearts to try to obey him? Sounds like a miracle, but certainly not one of those miracles that people think that come out of the nothing.

Hopefully we are geting into the place where our selfish identity is gone, and all we have left is to live by faith on the Son of God                     

what a loong long walk...

[Gene Balthrop]

Oatmeal.........Scripture says that (WE) ARE the temples of the living GOD, that is our Bodies are, just as Jesus' body was the temple of the living God when he was on earth. Where it says destory this temple and in three days (I) shall raise it it up. The "I"  was not Jesus speaking that was GOD first Person Speaking through Jesus' mouth.  Many scriptures say it was GOD who raised Jesus from the grave So If Jesus was dead as he said he was, then he could not have raised himself up from the grave right brother.

But notice it say this person (the man of sin) is sitting (IN) the temple of GOD , not GOD sitting (IN) Him, and He is being displayed as a GOD. Now ask yourself this, who is (NOW) sitting in the true temple of GOD and is Being displayed as a GOD . IT IS JESUS HIMSELF is it not?. This false trinitarian teaching set up Jesus as a GOD and that LIE is what creates the (IMAGE) of the MAN of SIN, this lie turns Jesus a man into a GOD , and by that creates the false or LIE about Jesus , turning our IMAGE of Him into the MAN of SIN.  God said, "your shall have no other GOD Beside ME",  and in another place "I ONLY am GOD and there is (NO) Other". and again Jesus said "for thou art the "ONLY" true GOD".

This false teaching started with the Gnostic's who believed Jesus was sent as a God from the Polera of the GOD'S this teaching is what under pins all the Preexistent teachings the exist today> IMO

peace and love to you and yours.........................................gene

[Kat]

Hi Gene,

This false trinitarian teaching set up Jesus as a GOD and that LIE is what creates the (IMAGE) of the MAN of SIN, this lie turns Jesus a man into a GOD , and by that creates the false or LIE about Jesus

What I gather you are saying here is Jesus Christ was not God? Here are a few emails on that will help you see what we believe concerning who and what Jesus Christ was while in the flesh.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3443.msg25690#msg25690 ---

Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."

[1]  "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).

[2]  "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]"  (Rev. 1:08).

[3]  "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).

[4]  "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

[5]  "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies?  Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).

[6]  "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).

One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God."  Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3316.msg24692#msg24692 ---

What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc.,   etc.  "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US"  (Matt. 1:23).  Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case?  Did He pray to HIMSELF?  On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING." 

Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges."  Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9).  Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE
the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html ---------------

"God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.

    If One is:

    THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)

    POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)

    HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)

    Then that One IS GOD!  Jesus filfills all three of those

    statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why

    Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).

    God be with you,

    Ray

[Gene Balthrop]

Ray..........There was a host of subject matter listed in your reply, so I think dealing with one at a time would be better here. For instance . The subject of GOD, remember Jesus said "FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD" That alone should cause us some concern, and needs clarifying right?. Jesus plainly said the Father was (IN) him he never said He was the Father who he said was the (ONLY) true GOD the word "ONLY" would exclude all others. And remember we also Have GOD himself saying "there is NO GOD besides ME I Know not ANY",, and again "YOU SHALL HAVE NOT GOD BESIDES ME" a commandment of his. When Thomas said "MY Lord AND MY GOD. was he referencing Jesus as that God , IMO he was not , Thomas Know Jesus was not a GOD as well as all the other disciples also did. What they failed to understand was there were two present in the Body of Christ , One was Jesus' Spirit and one was GOD the FATHERS SPIRIT. Remember "THE FATHER WHO IS (IN) ME (HE) DOTH THE WORKS. and again The son of man can do nothing of himslef. Hardly the words of a (TRUE GOD) and remember Jesus said He was Not a "TRUE" GOD, the words "thou" art means not HIM right?. What to me seems hard for people to get there minds around is the fact GOD can (INDWELL) us. Remember that God may be in ALL and Through ALL. This is where people i believe lose it they simply can not understand How ONE GOD can exist (IN) a person. This is what Paul meant when hes said this Great Mystery was how GOD was (IN) Christ . It is Hard to comprehend this, How does GOD really do that, and more how does he exist in ALL and THROUGH ALL at the same time . This is a very deep and profound subject , and needs far more study and clarification >

But lets start with the simple and clear scriptures first, One What did Jesus mean when he said "THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD",  and again "HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD". And  Where GOD Said 'YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDE ME" said He was the "ONLY" GOD and there were NO OTHER GODS He said HE KNOW of "NONE" BUT HIM> we can not move forward if these are not clarified. Because they are basic and solid scriptures. IMO

peace and love to you and yours............................................gene

[Kat]

Hi Gene,

Well I see you have your opinions about all this and we are not here to convince anybody of anything. We come here to discuss the Bible-truths.com articles and our study of the Scriptures. All of us on this forum have read those articles and we are in agreement with them.

We do not desire to debate with all the different opinions and speculations of doctrines that people may have. You need to review the rules at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Samson]

Hi Gene,

This false trinitarian teaching set up Jesus as a GOD and that LIE is what creates the (IMAGE) of the MAN of SIN, this lie turns Jesus a man into a GOD , and by that creates the false or LIE about Jesus

What I gather you are saying here is Jesus Christ was not God? Here are a few emails on that will help you see what we believe concerning who and what Jesus Christ was while in the flesh.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3443.msg25690#msg25690 ---

Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."

[1]  "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).

[2]  "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]"  (Rev. 1:08).

[3]  "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).

[4]  "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

[5]  "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies?  Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).

[6]  "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).

One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God."  Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3316.msg24692#msg24692 ---

What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc.,   etc.  "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US"  (Matt. 1:23).  Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case?  Did He pray to HIMSELF?  On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING." 

Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges."  Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9).  Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE
the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html ---------------

"God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.

    If One is:

    THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)

    POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)

    HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)

    Then that One IS GOD!  Jesus filfills all three of those

    statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why

    Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).

    God be with you,

    Ray

Hi Kat,

Just a few points added to Your above Scriptures that show Jesus has the Title God by explaining the meaning of the Greek Word "Theos." God The Father is the UnPlacer regarding the Title God and already possessed that Title & Nature. Hope the below information helps Gene and adds some to this part of the Thread. Taken from the General Discussion Section(Greek Words Defined & Usage) quoting Ray regarding the meaning of "Theos."

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, 'Son of God am I'? If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!
In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don't they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos.18) Logos: Word, Spokesman, used in reference to Jesus Christ, He's Gods Spokesman.

                Hope this Helps, Samson.

[Gene Balthrop]

Kat............So Direct Scripture Quotations Here has no place of discussion, but only Articles (AGREED WITH) . Then TRUTH is NOT the GOAL HERE , but controlled responses it seem is all you want. I informed The monitor i did not agree with all RAY smith say before i even tried to Join here.  I think it best If i go, if true dialog is not what you want here but just controlled agreeing responses, that is the sign of a Cult. Agree with us or get out. Frankly i do not agree with some things Ray says , but there are many thing i do agree with but if i can't have honest dialog by expressing my thoughts them i don't need to wast my time here.

peace and love......................................gene

[Samson]

Oatmeal.........Scripture says that (WE) ARE the temples of the living GOD, that is our Bodies are, just as Jesus' body was the temple of the living God when he was on earth. Where it says destory this temple and in three days (I) shall raise it it up. The "I"  was not Jesus speaking that was GOD first Person Speaking through Jesus' mouth.  Many scriptures say it was GOD who raised Jesus from the grave So If Jesus was dead as he said he was, then he could not have raised himself up from the grave right brother.

But notice it say this person (the man of sin) is sitting (IN) the temple of GOD , not GOD sitting (IN) Him, and He is being displayed as a GOD. Now ask yourself this, who is (NOW) sitting in the true temple of GOD and is Being displayed as a GOD . IT IS JESUS HIMSELF is it not?. This false trinitarian teaching set up Jesus as a GOD and that LIE is what creates the (IMAGE) of the MAN of SIN, this lie turns Jesus a man into a GOD , and by that creates the false or LIE about Jesus , turning our IMAGE of Him into the MAN of SIN.  God said, "your shall have no other GOD Beside ME",  and in another place "I ONLY am GOD and there is (NO) Other". and again Jesus said "for thou art the "ONLY" true GOD".

This false teaching started with the Gnostic's who believed Jesus was sent as a God from the Polera of the GOD'S this teaching is what under pins all the Preexistent teachings the exist today> IMO

peace and love to you and yours.........................................gene

Gene,

Below is an excerpt from the Article: Is God a Trinity or an expanding Family, specifically the Sub-Heading; Is Jesus God. This article is found in the main page of the site and explains this nicely. The Issue of God's Nature and what it consists of has been a Topic of Debate for Centuries. God is Spirit and No Man(Anthropos-Mankind) has seen God or heard His voice and God The Father never became Flesh and there is no Scriptural Plan that He ever Will, but Jesus(Jehovah) did. Please consider points copied and pasted below in Blue from that article.


Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

    "Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:.

And also:

    Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

    "And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

    "lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

    "Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, 'truly, God's Son art Thou!'"

    "Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, 'Lord, help me!'" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

    "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

    "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, 'Son of God am I'? If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let's notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn't need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:

    "Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

    "Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

    "And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father's Who sends me" (John 14:24).

    "I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).

    "Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).

These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.

Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ's part.

Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:

    "I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

Notice that the holy spirit is NO PART of this analogy. Now seriously, if the holy spirit were a third personality or god of the trinity, then why does it have NO PART in so many dozens and dozens of Scriptures like this one? Surely if there is a trinity, the holy spirit could represent maybe the soil, or the sunshine, or the rain, or at least be some part of this analogy with the Father, the Son, and the Saints, don't you think? But no! The holy spirit is not mentioned. That is because it is not necessary for it to be mentioned, and also because it is not a third god of a trinity.


   Gene, Hope this clarifies to some extent what Ray teaches regarding Jesus being God, but still in Subjection to the Father, but having the same Nature or Essence. The Conference Transcript: The Fathers Will and The Trinity paper should aid you, if you decide to read it.

                       Kind Regards, Samson.

[Craig]

Gene, I agree you don't need to waste your time here.  When you joined you told me you did not agree with all that Ray said and I told you that was fine if you discussed what you agreed with.  You joined under those stipulations and on the first post start posting things that are not true and want to teach what you believe is the truth.  You are a the very least dishonest about your reasons to join.  If your ideas are correct you should not have any trouble starting a website or forum and tell what you know.  If it is of God I'm sure it will be blessed.

PS  Your hypothesis is wrong because you are attributing God to be a persons (singular) but God is a surname.  There is Father God, and the Son (Christ) God, and our hope lies in the fact that we will join the family of God.

Craig

[Rene]

Kat............So Direct Scripture Quotations Here has no place of discussion, but only Articles (AGREED WITH) . Then TRUTH is NOT the GOAL HERE , but controlled responses it seem is all you want. I informed The monitor i did not agree with all RAY smith say before i even tried to Join here.  I think it best If i go, if true dialog is not what you want here but just controlled agreeing responses, that is the sign of a Cult. Agree with us or get out. Frankly i do not agree with some things Ray says , but there are many thing i do agree with but if i can't have honest dialog by expressing my thoughts them i don't need to wast my time here.

peace and love......................................gene

This is why we have these very important Forum Rules:

This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

René

[geokuhns]

Matt. 13:13-17

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.