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[lostANDfound]

good morning everyone!
i've been perusing old threads and see that many of us have spouses who are still in babylon.  my husband has one foot in and one foot out right now.  he no longer believes in eternal suffering in hell, free will, trinity, etc.  but he doesn't have any conviction to stop going to church.  he has stopped though, because i stopped, and we have so little family time as it is.  he feels as though his spiritual life has suffered since he stopped going.  we are still involved in a bible study from the church which i have been trying to get out of but for the first and only time in our relationship we are using the "submit to your husband" card and i am still going because of that.  but my disgust with the "unclean thing" is growing.  so do i submit to my husband or do i touch not the unclean thing?  or pray for a high fever, or a broken down vehicle, or some such crisis every thursday night?       He has proven faithful in my latest step out of babylon.  i've stopped going to a moms and tots group that i used to lead, then stepped out of leadership but still attended at the church.  And once i resolved to stop, God provided many good "excuses" to ease the transition: like sick kids, not enough room in the vehicle for all the car-seats because all my dayhome kids showed up on the same day, a burst of nice weather so we went to the park instead, etc.
i'm rambling.  i've accepted that my husband is God's workmanship and He'll drag him out of babylon when and how He wants to.  i just want to be obedient with my own actions in the meantime. 

[Craig]

One of the hardest things about leaving church is the social aspect.  Man is a social animal and needs some social interaction.  For many the only social endeavor is going to church.  You all need to find something to fill that social void. 

Craig

[Kat]

Hi lostandfound,

Well this is no doubt a delicate thing to navigate through, as you have said you do want to respect your husband. Have you discussed with him your difficulty in continuing to attend under your present convictions? I am thinking you have and he is wanting you to attend with him so he will not have to answer questions about why you are not there with him. But just talk to him and explain it is really hypocritical for you to continue and he really doesn't have to be specific about why your not with him. So maybe you just need to talk it through with him and let him know you are not trying to push him to stop, as it is a personal decision.

Another thing I am thinking is maybe you should try to instigate a period everyday to do a home Biblestudy with your husband. This would help filled the void left from not attending church activities and give you the necessary continuing in the Word that you absolutely need.

These are just a few things that came to mind, but I just want to be encouraging and say I see you are trying to be considerate about this, so you will do the right thing as you are lead to. But I will pray for you to be guided through all this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

Man is a social animal and needs some social interaction. 

haha, ha

sorry, that was funny (to put it in that way)...

[lostANDfound]

craig, i'm working on that part!  it's a struggle as time is such an issue for us right now but yes i can see change on the horizon as far as having a social life goes.  he has lots of questions about why it's ok to fellowship with non-believers but not "wrong-believers" so i'm putting together some verses for him including these:

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (New International Version, ©2010)

 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Ephesians 5:6-11

and an excerpt from 'Hell is a Christian Hoax' (http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html)


kat, that's sound advice.  we have had several talks on the subject but part of the problem is that each of my steps away from the church have been painful for him (and me at first) and i feel like i'm steering our family when it should be him.  we really don't have a lot of family time so when i opt out of church-related outings then he's forced to choose between family time or whatever needs are being met at church.  so i enjoy a huge sense of relief by not going whereas he feels like it's a sacrifice, and it's me driving it.  like i said, i'm putting together some verses for him to help paint a clearer picture of where i'm coming from.  one of the touchy points is that i consider them to be worshipping another god because their god is so small and weak and hateful and mine is not.  he's really stuck on this point, seeing it as a case of different perspectives of the same god. 
the family bible study or at least just him-and-i bible study every day is especially good advice.  something i've tried and failed to initiate in the past.  time to try again.
i should add also that most of his changes of belief have been a result of my enthusiasm as i've been learning and growing.  he hasn't read much of ray's material himself.  not that i think one needs to read ray's material, but it might be that the seeds are planted in fairly shallow ground right now.

john from kentucky, the pastor actually is very aware of my stance on things.  when i stepped out of leadership with the moms and tots group at the church i explained why to the pastor.  we went back and forth for awhile over email and eventually he recommended a book, something about 3 doctrines regarding hell.  i asked which one he felt was true, he said he couldn't fully agree with any of them.  so i said, "so i can believe any of these 3 doctrines which you yourself don't believe, as long as i don't believe that everyone will be saved?"  no more emails from him.  i've been asked not to lead any of the studies, and most of the people in the group know that i differ on almost everything.  so it's a lot of holding my tongue and accepting that they really aren't interested in truth.  your second idea is bang on, of course.

thanks all.  i know i've said it a few times but i really love having this forum to connect with like-minded believers. i consider it an enormous blessing to be graced with your wise words and prayers.  any scripture to add to my arsenal would be appreciated too!

[acomplishedartis]

craig,

 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Ephesians 5:6-11

These is very truth (and very hard to do for many with christians family members) 



God know how much willing I am to forsake things.



I think you are very brave


Moises

[octoberose]

Dear lostAndfound,
 I've been trying to decide if I'm going to add to this post or not, since I'm in such a different place as the brothers and sisters here. I'm not going to announce to my husband after thirty years that I cannot attend services with him, especially when he's the one teaching one of the bible classes on Sunday morning. But it's been very encouraging to me that a lot of our conversations have gotten into his teachings; one Sunday we spoke about Jesus being created by God and no one even challenged it. Last week he brought up death, and how the Bible refers to death as sleep and the dead know nothing. They listened! Now, I don't think this can last forever. The next class in the spring is on the Holy Spirit. I'm not even sure how my husband is going to approach it but he knows the origin of the doctrine of the Trinity and he'll probably tell them the history of it and the why's of it and maybe we can actually get farther into the Truth. One of my greatest prayers is that my  husband will completely come to the understandings we have here and we can have a home church, but God will either do that work or He won't. In the mean time, my role is that of a help meet.  Esther was queen with Xerxes but living in the palace didn't make her less of a Jew. God used her and that's what I'm praying for. Ray taught that the blind can't see and that surely applies to Christendom but I don't think that I'm superior to them. I feel that Someone turned the light on and now I can see things I never did before. I know that many of you, probably all of you, have spoken to friends and family to no avail, but I'm not done trying. 
 My children are grown, but if they weren't would my refusal to go to 'church' bring glory to God in our family, or would children see 'religion' as something divisive that tore their parents apart? That's something all of you have to answer and God will probably bring us to different conclusions to do His will.
  I love my husband but I don't worship him. The God that I do worship gave me a husband and children and the ability to speak the Truth with Love and though I fail sometimes I repent and try again.
I pray we all find the good we can do every day and then do it. I really value all of you and the wisdom and the comfort you bring to this place every day.
 
 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi lostANDfound

One of the things I found useful in telling people that there is no Hell, is to immediately assure them that the Correction that God brings to the deeds of evil people, will feel like Hell to them, yet won’t take God forever to put right.

It is a day and night difference to believe IN God or,  to BELIEVE God.

On the way to believing God,  The Light of God, lights the way home to warm, peaceful calm of knowing Him, leaving invisibly behind, those who only know of Him.

Blessings
Arc

[Kat]

Hi octoberose,

What you express just shows that each of us have some what of a different journey. I can see how in your situation that remaining with your huband, while he is sheds a little light in a dark place, is a good thing. His teaching that class is a catalyse for him to study and with his "help meet" to gain knowledge of the truth. Right now the church situation is working for you and your huband and it's possible others may have their eyes opened as well.

So we each have our own particular set of circumstances God has given us to work with and He will guide us through.

Mat 10:16  "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[octoberose]

Thank you Kat. It is an ongoing journey and it really shows in my house. You know a little of our struggles this year and how all we can do is wait on God. It's actually comforting to me that although some in my house are caught in sin that God has used that to bring us all closer together and we're learning how to walk in love. I keep thinking, day in and out, what is the plank in my own eye? I think that also applies to the beginning of this thread as we are salt and light to others we have to keep looking at how we're doing in the Lord. It's easy for me to get puffed up with how right I am, and that's when we fall.
 Arc,  I really appreciate what you tell people about hell. That is such a wise way to put it. I'm afraid in the beginning they thought I was saying people were going to get off scott free and I didn't mean to imply that. I'm going to remember your words.

[lostANDfound]

craig,

 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

2 Corinthians 6:14-18



Ephesians 5:6-11

These is very truth (and very hard to do for many with christians family members) 



God know how much willing I am to forsake things.



I think you are very brave


Moises

moises, i totally blocked this out of my brain, didn't even register until i was eating dinner at my parents with my kids a few days later.  since it hit me i have been a mess.  the issues surrounding removing myself from a church bible study and the delicacy of respecting my husband in the process... this is nothing when stood next to the thought of extracting myself from my parents dinner table.  let me be clear.  i love my parents!  they are gentle loving people.  and carnal, and deceived.  but my parents are not just common sinners, they are pharisees.  dad is a lay pastor, mom has her masters of divinity.  they teach, live, and love babylon.  if only they were just murderers, liars, or thieves.  but no, they say they are believers and with a bible in hand they teach the flocks that the author of the scriptures will burn most of humanity, and all the other idols we know about here on the forum.  i know that Jesus sat down and ate with the tax collectors.  did he sit down and eat with the pharisees?  
i'm not feeling so brave right now moises.  but then again i am willing (fool that i am).  once the dust settles from this post and it's responses, if God answers my prayers for clarity and direction, and if i'm convinced that my Father wants me to sever ties with my parents...well i'll need a lot of prayerful support.  
i have been deeply shaken by the thought of possibly (probably?) having to take these steps. please be gentle with me!  but truth above gentleness of course.  

[lostANDfound]

from a wise one in the background on this forum:

Luk 7:36  And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.
Luk 7:37  And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment
Luk 7:38  And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

[Kat]

Hi lostandfound,

Luke 14:26  "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

What this means to me is that we "hate" anybody in this world compared to the love we have for God. We can not let anything or anybody interfer with our spiritual growth, not even our families. Serving and obeying God comes first above EVERYTHING else. It is up to you by the guidance of the Holy Spirit of course, to determine if being around anybody is so negative as to be too determental to your spiritual well being. I could see if someone did not accept what you believe and would try very hard to dissuade you when you were around them, that might not be so good for you.

Does 1 Cor. 5 means to break off from ever going around unbelieving family members? Well it certainly means we need to consider very carefully our own spiritual well being with whom ever you socialize with.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[CEO]

HI

Bibletruths have been revealed to me since 2005.  I still attend baptist church with my wife.  Though I am physically there, spiritually  I am not there. God has called those who are attending.  He has the perfect plan for creating them into Him and this is a necessary step.

I did write a resignation letter explaining my understanding of scripture is very different than theirs.  I also was chairman of deacons of a 1500 member church.  To me attendance and membership are differentiating.  Didn't Ray attend a mega church in Atlanta?

My heart is in the mega church of all churches, Jesus Christ's church.

Askseeknock

Charles O

[karenmarie]

I attend and visit various churches in my community, and glean teaching and fellowship from all of them. I don't speak out my beliefs to most, but occasionally, to some, those who are also wondering and searching for deeper truth. I can find aggravating things, doctrines, and people in these churches, but I also find kindred spirits and prayer support and messages from God in the same churches.

I have to laugh, though - Orthodox, Catholic, Episcopalian, break-away Episcopalian, Baptist, and Pentescostal - yep - those are the folks I find fellowship with! Back in the day, when I was a member of a strict bible church, I believed the teachings I received against those above groups. Now I just look for people who seek God. They may still hang onto a doctrine or two or three that I no longer accept, but if they are searching for God's light and love and Him, then my spirit recognizes their spirit. We walk together, from time to time, on the path, and talk of Christ and God and share hopes and faith and struggles.

Still, it is a blessing to come here and read the posts on the forum. They strengthen my mind and feed my heart.

Karen