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Author Topic: God is "longsuffering"  (Read 3655 times)

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byonespirit

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God is "longsuffering"
« on: February 04, 2011, 07:52:49 PM »

Hi,I am a new member;I just posted an intro.I heard recently a claim that 1Peter 3:9 refutes people having to be regenerated first by God before they can believe.It went like this:From this verse God is longsuffering,so God is "waiting patiently" for people to repent.And then God says......"What,silly me, I have to regenerate them FIRST before they can repent!"So this person apparently believes in free will(but I don't),So how do we understand this verse in the light of man not having a free will?And is the word regenerate even IN the scriptures,sorry,I haven't even looked that up yet.I do know God chooses us,
      Blessings to all in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ,the Savior of the world!

                          Ben
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longhorn

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 09:48:53 PM »

byonespirit.  Welcome to the forum.  The word regeneration is mentioned in Titus Chapter 3: 5. It is part of the whole " Being conformed " into Christ image process which is by grace.  There are alot of smart people on this forum who can articulate this much better.  Keep reading Ray's material and know that he who has began a good work in you will complete it.

Love in Christ

Longhorn
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Kat

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 10:18:10 PM »


Hi Ben,

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

It's pretty easy to take a Scripture and explain it to mean what you want it to. But "the sum of your word is truth (Psa 119:160), so every Scripture matches up perfectly with the rest of Scripture and there is no contradictions, ever.

Rom 2:4  Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

2Tim 2:24  And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
v. 25  correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

As Longhorn said, yes there is a Scripture that speaks of "regeneration."

Titus 3:5  not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

God does regenerate us throught the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but not because we have decided to accept Him, for we can not come to God, He must "draw" us.

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Dawidos

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 09:55:53 AM »

Good, this subject came up, cause I must share with you my doubts. How do we know that everything in the Scriptures is right? I mean the entire Bible. Who decided that the Bible consists of those all books? I suppose it was the Church, and how we are supposed to believe them. I know that the Church has excluded some books and manuscripts and they are not considered "canon" now. The second explanation can be that those books has been written by many people. Maybe some of them were empowered by the Holy Spirit, but others could have been deceived one way or another and their books found their way to the Bible. Maybe it could explain the contradiction between talking about free will in some Scriptures and not free will in the others. What do you think?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 10:02:18 AM by Dawidos »
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Kat

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 10:53:58 AM »


Hi Dawidos,

When we have a Scripture like, "the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11), it is an absolute truth. Now there are those Scripture that speaks to the effect that 'we' must do something...

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

These Scriptures are relative to our perspective as to how things work. But never do they contradict the absolute Scriptures, as you can see by the next verse.

Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

But Ray has already explained this, so here is an email.

http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm

Dozens of times (maybe hundreds) God speaks to us AS IF He were a man. But God is NOT A MAN.

Some examples:

"And the Lord REPENTED [changed His mind] of the evil which He thought to do unto His people" (Ex. 32:14).

Vs.

"And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man that he should repent [change His mind]" (I. Sam. 15:29).

Is this a flat out Biblical contradiction? NO. On statement is from man's point of view, and the other is from God's point of view. One is the RELATIVE, while the other is the ABSOLUTE.

"...choose you this day whom ye will serve" (Josh. 24:15).

Vs.

"Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you..." (John 15:16).

The relative point of view from man's position seems to put the ability to choose on man's shoulders, while the ABSOLUTE truth from God's position is that 'no one CAN come to Me...." (John 6:44).

"...whosoever does not righteousness is NOT of God" (I jn 3:10).

Vs.
   
"ALL is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).

Unrighteousness is NOT of God's heart. Those who doe wickedness are of their father the devil, Jesus said. Yet, even THAT is OF GOD in the ultimate sense.

One more:

"Zachariah was JUST before God" (Luke 1:5). 

Vs. 

"NOT ONE is JUST" (Rom. 3:10).

Again, Zachariah was "just" FROM MAN'S point of view. When comparing him with all the other corrupt priests, Zachariah certainly appeared to be JUST. But from God's ABSOLUTE point of view, not even Zachariah was just.

And so there are hundreds of just such statements in Scripture that appear to make God out to be HUMAN, with HUMAN anatomy (eyes, ears, face, hair, arms, etc.) when in reality God IS SPIRIT and has ABSOLUTELY NO HUMAN ANATOMY.

When God asked:  "Where art thou Adam?" Are we to assumed that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHERE ADAM WAS HIDING??   And then, "WHO TOLD YOU that you were naked?" Does God REALLY NOT KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THESE SIMPLE QUESTIONS?

It was for ADAMS SAKE that God asked: "Where art thou" and "who told you that you are naked." From man's point of view God "repented" or "changed His mind." But God has not revealed to the whole world that ALL IS OF HIM, and he NEVER EVER CHANGES ANYTHING! Now do you see and understand. Good.

There are thousands of highly educated theologians and teachers that do not grasp these simplest of Bible Truths.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the authenticity of the Scritures as being Holy and God's Word to man, Ray devoted a whole conference to that 'How We Got The Bible.'  Even Jesus Christ Himself endorsed some of the Scriptures. I would put excerpts, but it would take a great many, so I will just leave it to be read as a whole to find all the undisputable info about how we got the Bible that we have today.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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hillsbororiver

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 10:55:38 AM »

Hi Dawidos,

We really cannot remove doubts with human reasoning and logic, the plain fact for us in this journey is we must have faith. God does not "think" like we do in the flesh, faith is our spiritual conduit to Him.

Meditate on these 2 verses a bit;


Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

As you know Ray does a very in depth study on how we got the the bible;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

Here is another verse to ponder as you seek understanding of God and how He uses scripture to teach, lead, cajole and humble us.

Eze 17:2  Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

Could you be more specific in your "free will" question?

Peace,

Joe


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hillsbororiver

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 10:57:16 AM »

Hi Kat,

I was typing as you posted, I just wanted to say;

Great post!

Peace,

Joe
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mharrell08

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 02:41:32 PM »

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2196.msg17723.html#msg17723):

Dear Justin:

The two sections of Genesis merely emphasize things from different perspectives. Chapter two is not suggesting that the animals were created chronologically AFTER Adam was created. So help me I don't even see how people have a problem with things this simple. Millions of times in history and story telling these exact same principles are used in books, stories, movies, etc.

The faith is not for everyone. The person who is waiting for scientific proof that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, will be waiting till Kingdom come--however, not too much longer after that.  I receive hundreds of emails from people who want me to prove to them that every word of the Bible is inspired by the Creator of the Universe, and then they want me to show them how to be healthy, happy and wealthy.  Sorry, can't do it.

Read the material on our site. Read ALL of it. Maybe some of it will "rub off" on you.  I personally have my faith strengthened by reading Paul's epistles. You see, I know in my heart of hearts that Paul is not a phony, a liar, a charlatan.  Paul was one intelligent dude, and he emphatically believed the Scriptures. He believed Jesus. He performed miracles. He raised the dead.  Most will say, "But I don't believe it."  I know they don't. That's why I said "The faith is not for everyone."

One way to really come to believe in the Scriptures is not to speculate, and read the higher criticism of others aout them, but by LIVING THEM. When you live them, you believe them, and you start to understand them. Try it.

God be with you,

Ray

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DougE6

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 01:23:47 PM »

Hi byonespirit

I think when it says "God waited patiently" it is NOT saying that God was wishing, hoping, waiting in the that weak ignorant and powerless HUMAN way that He ACTUALLY does not know or cannot cause what will happen, whether any would actually hopefully, oh dear me, by themselves... repent or regenerate.... To think that way to take God down to our level!  LOL That is actually what your friend is saying.  I do not think it means at all that God was hoping/wondering/wishing/crossing his fingers if some men of their own accord would finally see the light and then finally come to embrace Him. I do not think that scripture means that at all. I know you understand this too,

I think what it is telling us that God does in some much different and much higher sense waits patiently for us all, in that He has given us all an experience of evil to live through, to humble us.  This takes time.  We live through it, and God goes through it with us. This is actually Gods main work right now! Praise Him for this.  It will involve us doing many things that God actually hates, even though God has foreseen and planned out all our steps already.  So in the human sense, to help us get a picture of the great patience in God (as actually, patience is a fruit of the spirit)  and His forbearance as we do all these things that are contrary to his nature.  He is very patient with us, knowing the outcome He is bringing us all to is very good, but God condescends to working with us on our COMPARATIVELY glacier slow pace, while we gain all the humility and repentance and the IMAGE of God that He is slowly developing in us.  God is very patient with us, throughout this long process, which for a few of us will be completed sufficiently in this lifetime, where we will become manifest Sons of God at the onset of the next age, but for most will extend far into the next age. 
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 04:12:59 PM »

Romans 2:3,4 as Kat shared.

And, O man, the one judging those practicing such things, and doing them, do you think that you will escape the judgment of God?  Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and the long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

He won't see it unless the Lord gives him eyes, because he is 'not knowing' that the kindness of God leads a man to repentance.

Anyways, he won't see himself anywhere in those verses.  To his mind, they will only apply to others, or he will think that he is beyond that, so they no longer apply to him.  It will make perfect sense to him, just as it did to us.


 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

byonespirit

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 06:21:08 PM »


   
        Doug,
                 Now that is what I believe I was looking for!I think that God giving us all an experience of evil to humble us pretty much says it all as to why God is patient with us.And you are right,the free will position seems to assume that God does not even KNOW if someone will repent or not!BUT...most Christians will agree that God has total foreknowledge;I guess this is another example of the contradictions that Babylon teaches.The man who was trying to refute being regenerated first was actually trying to refute that part of Calvinism that teaches it,But we know that we don't have to be Calvinistic in order to believe that God really is working all things(even the evil) according to the counsel of his own will. I am so blessed to know that Jesus Christ will actually save the world,and do what he came to do.We are in that process of being humbled and go through evil things, and I can agree totally with God:THY will be done....no matter what the COST! Thank you ,Doug!

   PS...Do you know how to put someone's text highlighted in blue,like I have seen on the forum?Or anyone...please?lol   
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Kat

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2011, 07:41:21 PM »


Hi byonespirit,

To put someones quote in a box, highlight the part you want to quote and then click the box over the message board. It is the next to last box on the second row.

Kat
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DougE6

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2011, 12:05:53 AM »

Hi Ben (byonespirit)

You know, I have frequently thought to myself, and take this "tongue in cheek"  as there is so much more to fill in...but...that if one would take the complete sovereignty of God understanding of a Calvinist, that God does indeed elect and steer all things, and combine that with the understanding that it is really God's desire that all men are to be saved that the Arminians hold to, and throw out the one error they both hold in common, and refuse to let go of, that of eternal punishment...you would have something at least close to the truth!

You would have a God who has the power and sovereignty to carry out His hearts desire...to save everyone!

You would have a God that is looking more and more of what we so well know and receive!

So it does not surprise me that your Arminian friend wants to attempt to attack the no free will doctrine "irresistible grace and election" of the Calvinist with their carnal understanding of that scripture because that is what disagrees with,  predestination...He just thinks the Calvinist is being awful in that God is predestinating people to that eternal hell that he also believes in, but at least he tries to claim that men send themselves there, he wants to get God off the hook.  So unless he gets rid of eternal torment as an a priori, that he interprets all scripture from that lens...he will never see the sovereignty  of God in those scriptures, because he probably hates Calvinism.

But I chuckle to myself, and I draw some satisfaction, that these truths, that of Gods sovereignty, and of Gods desire to save everyone, are true and present enough that two complete factions of Christianity can see and embrace one of them each, even if not both, and that is nice to see, but it is very sad that they will not accept these two truths together, because then they would be FORCED to conclude that God will indeed save everyone, that then God would have the power and the will to "override"(we know God doesn't actually have to override His methods are far more sophisticated yet totally 100% effective)  mans will and do His hearts desire to save everyone;  but then they would need to get rid of the common horrible doctrine they both share, that billions are going to spend eternity in literal flames and burn forever.  Their blindness in receiving and fear in not questioning that error is what they both share and then they fight over two truths that are both true and yet they each respectively deny.

Just be happy that both truths are true!
Doug
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cjwood

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Re: God is "longsuffering"
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2011, 02:38:39 AM »

i'm happy about that doug.

claudia
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