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[geokuhns]

I’ve searched the Forum high and low trying to find an answer to a particular question and particularly if Ray has spoken to it. The answer might be there but if it is it has eluded me. So I’m asking the Forum members for help.

The question is: Was Jesus born with carnal nature? I know He was not carnally minded thanks to the power of the Father’s Holy Spirit but was He born with carnal nature? I do have an opinion but I will hold that to myself for now.

Thank you for your help.
George

[mharrell08]

I’ve searched the Forum high and low trying to find an answer to a particular question and particularly if Ray has spoken to it. The answer might be there but if it is it has eluded me. So I’m asking the Forum members for help.

The question is: Was Jesus born with carnal nature? I know He was not carnally minded thanks to the power of the Father’s Holy Spirit but was He born with carnal nature? I do have an opinion but I will hold that to myself for now.

Thank you for your help.
George

2 Cor 5:21  For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him

1 Pet 1:18-19  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

Matt 1:20  ...the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Rom 8:3-4  For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Excerpt from Ray regarding 'likeness of sinful flesh':

Ah, there it must be. Now we have a Scripture that tells that Jesus "in the likeness of sinful flesh," MUST BE SIN, right? Still wrong, pale face. "Flesh" means "body," and Jesus came in a body made of flesh, so Jesus’ body MUST BE SIN, right? WRONG! This verse doesn’t say that Jesus came in "A sinful BODY," now does it. Don’t try to make this verse say what it doesn’t say. Jesus came in the "LIKENESS of sinful FLESH," not in the "likeness of A sinful BODY."

The body of Jesus Christ was not sin, and your body is not sin. Physical bodies are not sin because matter CANNOT SIN. "Sin is the transgression of the law" (I John 3:4). What law does anything "material" break? What law does "matter" break? What law does any human "body" break? If **** is going to teach you this damnable heresy that the body of Jesus Christ IS SIN, then he had better be able to tell you WHAT LAW OR LAWS THE BODY OF JESUS BROKE? Am I going to fast for any of you? Am I going to fast for ALL of you who follow a man?

God did not "send His Own Son in a sinful body." Neither did God "send His Own Son in sinful flesh." We need to pay better attention to the words of the Scriptures, and men will not be deceiving us on such a grand scale. Jesus was sent by His Father "in the likeness of sinful flesh." What does that mean? This verse does not have reference to "sinful bodies," but rather to "sinful FLESH." And "flesh" virtually always used figuratively to mean the carnal mind. Carnal means "flesh" or "meat" as in "chili con carnie"—chili with MEAT. We are meatheads before conversion. That is, we are controlled by our carnal MINDS, (which is a spiritual entity, not physical matter).

Jesus Christ looked like many other men. But He was not. There was NOTHING common or unclean or sinful about Jesus Christ or His physical body. And to say otherwise is blasphemy.

Jesus came "in the likeness of sinful flesh," He did not come AS sinful flesh. The word "likeness" means, "form, resemblance, likeness, shape, similitude" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary). For the definition of these words from my American Heritage College Dictionary:

Form; "outward structure, shape and appearance" It does not mean of the SAME KIND.

Resemblance: "similarity in appearance or in external or superficial details" It does not mean of the SAME KIND.

Shape: "the characteristic surface configuration of a thing; an outline or contour" It does not mean of the SAME KIND.

Similitude: "similarity; resemblance, resembling another, a counterpart [resembling another], a perceptible likeness. It does not mean of the SAME KIND.

One more final proof from this verse that neither Jesus nor His body was sin. Let’s read Rom. 8:3:

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh [the flesh of sinful man, not the flesh of sinful Jesus] God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin [Margin: ‘on account of sin. Diaglott: ‘{by an offering} for sin.’ Rotherham & Green: ‘and concerning sin’ New Revised Standard Version ‘and to deal with sin’] CONDEMNED sin in the flesh [in the carnal flesh of sinning humanity, not His OWN SIN!]."

There is not one Scripture in the Bible that says that man's physical body is sin.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Dave in Tenn]

What is "carnal nature"?  Is that a scriptural or a theological term?

Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

Php 2:5-8  For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death--death even of a cross...

Christ became flesh/meat/carnal.  While carnal, tempted in all points like as us other meat people, yet without sin and completely obedient to the Father.  I don't know what "carnal nature" means.  If it means sinful and disobedient, then 'no'...Christ did not have a 'carnal nature'.  If it means being weak and completely dependant on the Father for the ability to will and to do His good pleasure, then I reckon the answer is 'yes'.

I hope that helps a little.  If it doesn't, it's more proof that I am not a teacher.

[hillsbororiver]

What is "carnal nature"?  Is that a scriptural or a theological term?

Excellent question Dave, so I had to look it up and could not find that term in any of the standard/popular versions as a matter of fact...

So I guess the question would be, was Jesus carnal minded?  

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

George,  I think I know what you are asking, and yes, Jesus did take upon Himself our frail condition, He was a physical man who experienced temptations but did not succumb or submit to follow through into sinning. Perhaps Paul can add some insight here;

Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
 
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
 
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered(G3958) being tempted, he is able to succour (aid or relieve) them that are tempted.

The part in verse 18 that reads "hath suffered being tempted" might be better stated as "hath experienced the sensation of being tempted."


G3958
πάσχω, πάθω, πένθω
paschō  pathō  penthō
pas'-kho, path'-o, pen'-tho
Apparently a primary verb (the third form used only in certain tenses for it); to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful): - feel, passion, suffer, vex.

I hope that the responses from Marques, Dave and I shed some light...

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi George,

No absolutely Jesus did NOT have a carnal mind.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Is it not the beast within that is the carnal nature in man?  Jesus Christ did not go through the process as we do, to leave our first love and come to see the man of sin, son of prediction, beast within. The carnal mind is the opposite of the mind of God and Jesus could not have been carnal minded at all, because He was one with the Father.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."


http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html -----

Listen, as long as we obey the beast within, we are not aware of just how evil this beast really is. As long as we obey our carnal mind, we are not aware of just how evil our carnal mind is. MOST Christians are carnal. And how can I say that with certainty seeing that I cannot read the hearts of most men? Because the Bible tells me so: "MANY are called, but FEW are chosen." The carnal minded are called, but the carnal-minded are not as yet chosen:

"And I [Paul], brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

"For ye ARE yet CARNAL: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not CARNAL, and walk as men [Gk: ‘according to man’]?

"For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos [and another, I am Church of Christ, I am a follower of Billy Graham, or John Hagee, or Benny Hinn, or Paul Crouch, or T.J. Jakes, or Joyce Myers, etc.]; are ye [ALL] not CARNAL?"

Through the years I have had many people say to me that they are followers of this or that religious personality, or that so and so, is "My Man." Well let me inform you that you cannot fight a spiritual warfare by standing behind a carnal man.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood [carnal enemies], but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12).

Can we fight these spiritual enemies with carnal weapons or the teachings of carnal men?

"For the weapons of our warfare are not CARNAL, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds" (II Cor. 10:4).


JUST WHAT IS CARNALITY

What then is it to be carnal or carnally minded? It’s not good, I can tell you that. It’s a monster—IT’S A BEAST:

"for to be carnally minded is DEATH…"

And just why is that?

"Because the carnal mind is enmity [DEEP-SEATED HATRED] against God: for it is NOT SUBJECT to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [Gk: ‘is ABLE’]. So then they that are in the flesh [carnal-minded] CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:6-8).

Have YOU ever seen yourself as the man of sin?

Do you believe that YOU were once the son of perdition?

Have YOU ever been carnally-minded in your walk with God?

Have YOU ever left your first love?

Have YOU ever put your hand to the plough and looked back?

Has the spiritual house YOU built upon the sand fallen yet?

Have you fallen from grace since first believing?

No? You say, "NO—NEVER"! Then the chances are great that "ye are YET carnal."


WHEN WILL I SEE THE BEAST WITHIN?

Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have be enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.

If you insist that: "Ray! I don’t see myself as a spiritual BEAST, or a man of SIN, or the son of PERDITION [destruction]." Well, all I can to say is to parrot Paul: "YE ARE YET CARNAL."
----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Samson]

I’ve searched the Forum high and low trying to find an answer to a particular question and particularly if Ray has spoken to it. The answer might be there but if it is it has eluded me. So I’m asking the Forum members for help.

The question is: Was Jesus born with carnal nature? I know He was not carnally minded thanks to the power of the Father’s Holy Spirit but was He born with carnal nature? I do have an opinion but I will hold that to myself for now.

Thank you for your help.
George

Hi George,

I'm going to add another aspect or angle to Your inquiry. By the Greek definitions of the word "Carnal" or "Fleshly," I would answer that Jesus was not Carnal. Marques presented some good Scriptures including a good explanation from Ray about likeness. Also some good contributions from Hillsbororiver, Kat and Dave. Also some information was presented explaining the difference between having Carnality or a Carnal Nature in contrast to the meat of ones flesh(the body of flesh itself).

Kat and I were discussing the word Carnal through phone conversation approximately a Month ago. In that discussion, I looked up the word Carnal and found three different Greek Words with definitions and Scriptural examples, two of which were synonymous and very closely related. The third Greek word was a little different with two uses. Also Kat mentioned another word that added to the discussion. When this Topic  presented by George appeared the other day, I decided to reexamine that information and prepare myself to present it here. Below, I will attempt to explain these Greek Words relating to Carnal, Fleshly Thinking or minded, Carnality, etc.

1) SarkiKos(Sar-Ki-Kos): English- Carnal, Flesh(As in fleshly Nature). Sensual, controlled by animalistic appetites, unregenerate, with the idea of unspirituality, fleshly thinking or minded. Lusts which have their source in Mans corrupt and fallen nature.

1Co 3:1  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

2Co 10:4  (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

2) Sarkinos(Sar-Kee-nos): English-Fleshly. Means consisting of Flesh, Fleshly tables of the heart.
    Note- According to Strongs Dictionary, Sarkikos and Sarkinos are Synonymous and closely related.

2Co 3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

3) Sarx: English-Flesh of the body, the substance of the body, A Human being with His frailties, physical and mortal passions; Carnally minded.

Comment: As some Forum Members might notice, the Greek Word Sarx is a little different and could seem "tricky" in reference to Jesus. Sarx can be used interchangeably, ie- "Substance of the body, the physical flesh or being Carnally Minded. There is certainly a big difference. Jesus walked this Earth with a body consisting of a Fleshly substance and as We know, was unhealthy physically(Isaiah 53), but in no way was Carnally Minded. See my example below as how Sarx could be used in reference to the Body's substance of Flesh.

Example: A Person becomes Brain Dead with absolutely no thoughts, but His Body of Flesh(Sarx) is functioning and alive through life support systems. His Sarx is alive and functioning, but in no way can He have a Carnal Mind(Sarx), because His Brain is dead and Carnal desires or thoughts originate in the Brain.

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. NOTE: Sarx used as being Human frailties and being Mortal.

Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same FLESH: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. NOTE: Sarx used as substance of Body.

Kat presented another word to me in that phone conversation, found below.

Kreas(Kreh-as) English-Meat or Flesh. Flesh in the sense of Animal Meat sold at market and for Idol Worship too.

1Co 8:13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

 Rom. 14:21 It is good neither  to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.


           George, hope this helps in the right direction, Samson

[longhorn]

All you people that can type over 12 words a minute really get on my nerves.   

Longhorn

P.S.  I had to cheat in typing class.  How low is that.

[Samson]

All you people that can type over 12 words a minute really get on my nerves.   

Longhorn

P.S.  I had to cheat in typing class.  How low is that.

LOL Longhorn,

Actually, although I Type fairly well, I used to have to look up all Scriptures and type them right from the bible while wearing my glasses, taking them off, very time consuming, but My wife finally brought ESWORD back recently, so all I have to do is copy and paste the Scriptures from that source.

        Practice Your Typing Dude, you can improve, just like You practiced Lassoing Steers.

                             , Samson.

[phillip78]

You sound like me longhorn. I have to chicken peck when I type. 

[geokuhns]

Thanks everyone for your input on my question "was Jesus born with carnal nature."
However I still have questions.

I believe everything that has been posted above on my question such as:

1) Jesus never sinned.
2) Jesus was not carnally minded. (But did He have carnal nature? There is a difference).
3) Jesus was sent by God in the likeness of sinful flesh.
4) Jesus’s flesh was not sin because flesh cannot sin.

But questions still linger in my mind. This is the most important question. If anyone can answer it please do.

1) If Jesus did not have carnal nature then what kind of nature did He have that would have produced "temptation in Him?

Heb 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

If Christ "was in all points tempted like as we are", that He was "made like unto His brethren", and "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, “He also Himself likewise took part of the same" then wouldn't Jesus have to have carnal nature which would be the root cause of His temptation as it is with any other human being? (Jesus was the "Son of man). If He didn't have carnal nature then what was causing His temptations in all points like as we are? The difference though between Jesus and us is Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit (Son of God) and is an example to us that Jesus can come into our lives to save us from our sinful "nature."

2) If Jesus did not have carnal nature as we do then what do we do with these verses:

"Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God" (Hebrews 2:17).

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same" (Hebrews 2:14).

Here is what makes sense to me:

Even though Christ was God in the flesh, he was tempted in all the basic forms that humankind has been tempted. In order for this to be possibly, Christ had to have carnal nature, the SAME basic carnal nature that any one of us has, yet Christ never allowed this nature to influence Him to sin. (He had carnal nature but did not become carnally minded). Christ had the Holy Spirit from birth which God supplied Him. It wasn't His own power that kept Him from sinning.

The same carnal nature we battle each day of our lives is the same carnal nature Christ had to battle during His lifetime. However, Christ not once ever gave in to this nature and sin, despite it's being a part of His daily existence. (He did not become carnally minded). Of course, giving in to sin as we all have strengthens carnal nature, but this can be defeated through Christ's life in us.

Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus."

It seems to me that the very son of God in the flesh was "related" to us via the same carnal nature, yet He was able to resist and overcome this nature, then why can't we if we truly have Christ and the Father LIVING their lives IN us?

Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Christ had to overcome His nature...

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Christ resisted and overcame human nature (carnal nature), just as the Father requires us to resist and overcome.

Matt 5:48 "Be (become) ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

I hope my post is not taken as "teaching." As I said in my initial post I have searched high and low on the forum for an answer on whether or not Jesus had carnal nature. I could not find anything definitive. The closest response to addressing my question in the posts above was that Jesus was not carnally minded which I believe to be true. But did He have a carnal nature as we do? I believe He did as laid out above.
 
Thank you for reading this and any time and effort you might put into responding.
George

[mharrell08]

Hey George,

It can be confusing to try to separate the terms 'carnal minded' and 'carnal nature'. The scriptures refer to them as the same [Eph 2:3 - use of word 'nature' to describe sinful condition].

Jesus was able to be tempted in all points as we are because he was human. Humans become hungry, tired, thirsty, etc. and eventually die. God is immortal and never lacks in these ways. The scriptures tell us that Jesus 'emptied Himself' [Phil 2:7] in order to be human, to be mortal and have total dependence on The Father for all His needs. Jesus made in the flesh is the only human to not have a carnal mind or carnal nature. It was specifically done this way so we could have an example to follow [John 13:15, 1 Pet 2:21].


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Samson]

Thanks everyone for your input on my question "was Jesus born with carnal nature."
However I still have questions.

I believe everything that has been posted above on my question such as:

1) Jesus never sinned.
2) Jesus was not carnally minded. (But did He have carnal nature? There is a difference).
3) Jesus was sent by God in the likeness of sinful flesh.
4) Jesus’s flesh was not sin because flesh cannot sin.

But questions still linger in my mind. This is the most important question. If anyone can answer it please do.

1) If Jesus did not have carnal nature then what kind of nature did He have that would have produced "temptation in Him?

Heb 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

If Christ "was in all points tempted like as we are", that He was "made like unto His brethren", and "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, “He also Himself likewise took part of the same" then wouldn't Jesus have to have carnal nature which would be the root cause of His temptation as it is with any other human being? (Jesus was the "Son of man). If He didn't have carnal nature then what was causing His temptations in all points like as we are? The difference though between Jesus and us is Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit (Son of God) and is an example to us that Jesus can come into our lives to save us from our sinful "nature."

2) If Jesus did not have carnal nature as we do then what do we do with these verses:

"Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God" (Hebrews 2:17).

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same" (Hebrews 2:14).

Here is what makes sense to me:

Even though Christ was God in the flesh, he was tempted in all the basic forms that humankind has been tempted. In order for this to be possibly, Christ had to have carnal nature, the SAME basic carnal nature that any one of us has, yet Christ never allowed this nature to influence Him to sin. (He had carnal nature but did not become carnally minded). Christ had the Holy Spirit from birth which God supplied Him. It wasn't His own power that kept Him from sinning.

The same carnal nature we battle each day of our lives is the same carnal nature Christ had to battle during His lifetime. However, Christ not once ever gave in to this nature and sin, despite it's being a part of His daily existence. (He did not become carnally minded). Of course, giving in to sin as we all have strengthens carnal nature, but this can be defeated through Christ's life in us.

Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus."

It seems to me that the very son of God in the flesh was "related" to us via the same carnal nature, yet He was able to resist and overcome this nature, then why can't we if we truly have Christ and the Father LIVING their lives IN us?

Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Christ had to overcome His nature...

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Christ resisted and overcame human nature (carnal nature), just as the Father requires us to resist and overcome.

Matt 5:48 "Be (become) ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

I hope my post is not taken as "teaching." As I said in my initial post I have searched high and low on the forum for an answer on whether or not Jesus had carnal nature. I could not find anything definitive. The closest response to addressing my question in the posts above was that Jesus was not carnally minded which I believe to be true. But did He have a carnal nature as we do? I believe He did as laid out above.
 
Thank you for reading this and any time and effort you might put into responding.
George

Hi George,

I'll leave it to Kat & Marques and some of the other Pro's, even though I have E-SWORD now. You have a good question, but only would I like to add one point to Your inquiry, Read Below !

Isn't there a difference between someone trying to Tempt someone, like the Devil attempting to get Christ to Sin through a Temptation or the Religious leaders attempting to do so too, contrasted with a Person, in this case Christ having the capacity to Sin as result of  the Temptation that's brought upon by others.

With the exception of Christ, the rest of us have the capacity to Sin as the result of some Temptation due to Our Sinful Nature. On the other hand, God The Father through Spirit dwelled in Christ while He was Human and prevented Him from succumbing to any Temptation brought upon Him by any possible causes. Furthermore, God provided the Causes and circumstances to protect Him and prevent Him from sinning as a result of any Temptation. I'll leave it to others to provide the Scriptures and excerpt's from Ray at this time, but maybe the above might help.

                                Kind Regards, Samson.

[DougE6]

Hello George

You ask challenging questions, and you are articulate in your writing.  A couple thoughts came to my mind as I read your post.  I only present these in the spirit of being subject to correction, I am just starting to form a framework to get a handle on this.  And I am trying to put together clues from Rays writings on this, as I write.

We know the Scriptures talk about TWO men. The First man Adam, and the Last man Christ.  1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.   

This contrast/comparison between these two men is found in several locations in the New Testament.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So these two men are very important, both universal in impact.

Another thing they both share is they both were tempted by Satan.  I realize that Adam had Eve involved, so it was not exactly as direct as when satan tempted Christ, but the reality still exists, they both faced Satan's wiles.

As you pointed out, the scriptures testify that Jesus was at all points tempted as we are but yet without sin.  Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

So I see both Adam and Christ as two NEW beginning points.  Christ was flesh as Adam.  Adams flesh was weak and fell when exposed to temptation.  Christs flesh was, as He is the second man,  I would think, the same as Adams before Adam disobeyed, yet  Christ did not disobey as Adam did.  Why? I would say because Christ had the holy spirit, whereas Adam did not.  I would say that is the fundamental difference between the two outcomes.  Jesus had the spirit of God in a way that Adam did not.

Luk 4:1  And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Jesus faced satan when He was full of the spirit of God!

So the second man, the second Adam, was able to overcome through the spirit of God and then be able to reconcile all things back to God.

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

BUT BUT I won't say that Jesus was carnal(carnal mind) because of huge chance that can be misunderstood and I want to say only Biblical statements.  The Bible does not outright say that(that I know of), but it does tell us many things that we discussed above. But I do think it is OK to say that Jesus was just like Adam before Adam disobeyed, BUT with a huge difference...Jesus had the spirit of God, and that allowed Him to obey God in every respect.

As Jesus had preexisted Adam, and had emptied Himself from the highest levels to become man, I am not sure if that difference changes things compared to Adam.  That I also keep in mind. But I am comfortable in saying He was man just as much as you and me, and has felt the full force of satans wiles and fleshly weakness and needs and desires and yet was without sin, either from the HEART or overt. I think Adams heart became more corrupt after the disobedience and God opened his eyes, but that is speculation, and that is why I am only willing to say that I think Jesus humanity was like Adams before Adam experienced disobedience, because Christ NEVER experienced disobedience!  I think the fact that Jesus never experienced disobedience means his "carnality" if you want to say such a word, was different from ours right now, in that we are guilty, we feel that guilt, we feel our death sentence and we know it is just, and we are ashamed and Jesus never was ashamed like that. Our guilt and shame must influence our carnal mind, our carnal nature,  I would think.  So I only want to say what is written, that Christ was tempted, that He was the second Adam, a man, and without sin, without saying things beyond.

[Dave in Tenn]

I'll just simply ask the question again...what is "carnal nature"?  As Joe pointed out, the term doesn't exist in scripture in any translation I have access to.  The two words 'carnal' and 'nature' don't even appear together in any verse of scripture in any translation I have.

That makes it a theological question.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but to try to find an answer to a theological question without having a common basis of understanding as to what the term means is going around the mulberry bush.

I think Doug is correct in attempting to speak and understand 'scripturally'.  But if this is nagging on you, then try to explain what 'carnal nature' is.

[mharrell08]

2 related verses that did not come up in the discussion which have bothered me since the day I read it:

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I personally do not know ANY body that does not confess Jesus Came in the flesh, we all know the Word was made flesh. I have always wondered why John made such a big deal over it. I guess it all boils down to our understanding of the flesh of Jesus Christ. I think Doug nailed it, indeed He was made like unto his brethren, was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin, because he was full of the spirit of God.

The apostle John states Jesus Christ, not just Jesus. Christ means Messiah. While there may be many that believe a man named Jesus, recorded in the Holy Scriptures, walked the earth some 2000 years ago. Hardly anyone believes He is the Messiah, sent by God, to save all mankind.

[Kat]

John 6:38  For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Remember that Christ was special, conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was the embodiment of the Father in flesh.

John 14:9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?

So God lowered Him to take on flesh so He could know this evil experience. But the Holy Spirit was in Him to the degree that He could not sin, the Father made sure He would not sin.

Luke 2:40  And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

Luke 4:1  And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit

Here is an excerpt.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ----------------

Jesus never sinned. Why not? Why didn't Jesus sin? I have said before: Because His Father wouldn't let Him sin, and because His Father inspired Jesus through His Holy Spirit to turn from the temptation every time. Jesus' motivation to not sin was much greater than His temptation to sin, and the stronger motivator (the love of God's Spirit in Him) always won out. This is how Jesus "overcame the world."
--------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Hi All,

Great topic George!

I must add after reading through all the responses I am heartened by the degree of civility, the desire to (for the most part) understand where each and everyone's vantage point is coming from and the patience being displayed (without rancor) as we all earnestly dig deeper into a better understanding of our Lord and Savior...

It is an incredible subject matter regarding this merging of God's spiritual perfection (Our Father's Spirit) and the fleshly lump of clay (Mary) culminated and embodied by the life of Jesus.

Yes, He (Christ) had the advantage of knowing our Father firsthand and yes He had the advantage of understanding the Father's ultimate plan and purpose for humanity, but what He did not have was the experience (or sensation of worldly temptations involved) of this plan before He was to live in this mortal flesh.

George,  I think I know what you are asking, and yes, Jesus did take upon Himself our frail condition, He was a physical man who experienced temptations but did not succumb or submit to follow through into sinning. Perhaps Paul can add some insight here;

Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
 
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
 
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered(G3958) being tempted, he is able to succour (aid or relieve) them that are tempted.

The part in verse 18 that reads "hath suffered being tempted" might be better stated as "hath experienced the sensation of being tempted."


G3958
πάσχω, πάθω, πένθω
paschō  pathō  penthō
pas'-kho, path'-o, pen'-tho
Apparently a primary verb (the third form used only in certain tenses for it); to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful): - feel, passion, suffer, vex.

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered (experienced);   

I agree with Dave in regard to the term "carnal nature" we can't find these exact words used to describe anyone in scripture although I believe we all understand what a "natural" (beastly) man is capable of and also that we all know our original state is purely carnal. But can anyone show us that Jesus at any time worshiped the "beast" within ever, once? Can anyone show us a man who did not worship his own beastly mind and desires?

A wide chasm there, a huge difference in the minute by minute walk through this snake infested journey. We fall to our knees with humble faith in the strength of His Spirit to win a battle every now and then, but He won every single time! 

There is a paradox, riddle, parable, mystery, sacred secret within the life of Jesus as earthly man, as well as heavenly God, we probably will not fully comprehend this until the next age and beyond.

We (believers of the Promise under the New Covenant) have been given an example in Jesus as to how we should approach this journey toward perfection...

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust(G19390 of the flesh.

G1939
ἐπιθυμία
epithumia
ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

It is written "shall not FULFIL the lust of the flesh", not that we (and by example our Lord) shall not experience any temptation of this lust of the flesh, we are to learn to overcome by faith in the strength of His Spirit within us.

Gal 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Spiritual warfare anyone? 

Who walked in the Spirit throughout His entire life, Who did not ever fulfill the lust of the flesh even though He experienced the same manner of a longing for personal gratification? Any and all of His initial base temptations were always ultimately overcome by the desire to follow the will of our Father even though there was obviously real, palpable (at least initially) yearnings for a carnal (if only temporal) relief of these desires.

So my perception is that Christ experienced the longing of a carnal mind without becoming a subject (worshiper) of it.

Peace,

Joe

 

[mharrell08]

Regarding 1 John 4:1-3
However, I remember Ray discussing this verse somewhere.  Ray taught that those who deny Christ came in the flesh are denying that He comes into the hearts of believers.  That when Jesus comes into our hearts, He is coming into our flesh.  Those who deny that have the spirit of antichrist.  I may not be stating Ray's teaching precisely.  However, I forget where Ray discussed this.  Maybe Kat or others can find where Ray discussed this and provide his precise statement.  Was it somewhere in the LOF articles?  I'll keep looking and provide the reference if I find it.  The mind begins to go as the years roll by.

Is this the one John? I had always thought this verse was speaking of Jesus coming as human flesh as our Messiah. This is an interesting perspective, thanks for the heads up.


Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm):

Dear Layne:

Thank you for your comments. I too do not claim to understand all mysteries.

However, I try to stay in the parameter of what the Scriptures reveal. The Scriptures do NOT reveal that the Holy Spirit OF God is really the Holy Spirit GOD. It is ludicrous to say that the spirit of God is a third part of a triune God when we are plainly told that Jesus Christ was "CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit" but after Birth is called "The Son of the Father" rather than the "Son of the Holy Spirit."   Jesus Christ HAS A GOD (God the Father). God the Father DOES NOT HAVE A GOD!!! Jesus Christ is and always will be "SUBJECT" to God His Father (I Cor. 15:24-28). No Trinitarian has ever even attempted to reconcile such Scriptures with a trinity theory.

Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.

The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures. NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.

I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead."  Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.

We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOME ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.

Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:

"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).

Now notice this:

"But I am telling you the truth.  It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).

Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?

What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:

"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).

"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).

Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???

Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:

"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world.  Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."

After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again the THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:

"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).

Back to John:

"Remain IN ME.  I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).

We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:

"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).

And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?

Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.

Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'?  God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it?  I John 2:1:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.  And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!

There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!

When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!

"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD:  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).

"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IS US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).

It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!

OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.

Concerning your comments on the salvation of all, I must be short. I have written hundreds of pages on this theme and certainly have no intentions of duplicating all that in an e-mail.
 
Just because you do not understand God Word or His purpose is not solid ground for denying God's Word regarding the salvation of all. You call God's plan of universal salvation an "insult."  You do "insult" God and His Word!  You reason in your own carnal mind that it doesn't make sense for people to die for a message that isn't necessary. Who said the message isn't necessary? Not I. Not God.

People are so blinded that they are unaware that it is THROUGH the "foolishness of preaching" that men are saved!  Many carnal-minded Christians ask me nearly daily: "If God is going to save everyone, why did Christ even have to die for us?"  They say that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but this one comes pretty close!

Has anyone ever stopped to consider that it is the death of our Saviour Jesus Christ that makes it possible to save everyone in the first place? What do people mean, "WHY did He die if all will be saved?" THAT IS HOW THEY ALL GET SAVED!!!!!!! That is axiomatic. This is not rocket science. ALL have sinned. Christ died for ALL. ALL get saved because OF that Sacrifice for ALL! There is a process, however. Not all are NOW saved. But they ALL will be in the end.  Read all of my letters to Hagee and Kennedy for the proof.

You say, "If I knew that everyone would be ultimately saved, why would I risk everything to deliver an unnecessary message?"  Well, of course, you said it yourself: YOU WOULDN'T. What course in logic have you taken that REQUIRES a message to save 'SOME' but does NOT REQUIRE a message to 'SAVE ALL'?

I don't mean to be demeaning, Layne, but it never ceases to amaze me how people can throw all logic to the wind when it comes to their own personal religious bias.

If there are one hundred people trapped in a burning building and ten firemen can possibly save ten of them, does that mean then that TO SAVE THEM ALL IT WOULD NOT TAKE ANY FIREMEN.  Why bring ANY fireman to the fire if our intention is to SAVE THEM ALL?  So if only a few are to be saved from the fire it WILL require firemen. But if ALL are to be save from the fire it will require NO fireman.   So some firemen would be willing to "risk everything" (to use your very own words) to same a FEW, but that it "wasn't necessary" for them to "risk everything" to launch an "unnecessary" rescue if they were to save EVERYONE?  Maybe you have a better argument than you have presented here? Trust me, I HAVE HEARD THEM ALL!

Do you know why people as yourself present such foolish and unscriptural arguments against God's plain declarations?  I'll tell you. Because trying to contradict the very WORD OF GOD is itself the epitome of ignorance and foolishness.  There are THOUSANDS of pages that have been written by far better scholars than myself (I am a roofer, not a scholar) presenting HUNDREDS of Scriptures teaching the ultimate salvation of all. The etymology of every word has been searched out and proven to harmonize with the salvation of all.

Read the first ten pages of my letter to John Hagee. There you will find ample proof from the Scriptures that there is not even a hint of eternal torture taught in either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. Greek "aions" are NOT English "eternities." I absolutely, Scripturally, PROVE that. If you think you can disprove it--give it your best shot.

Gotta go. Many more e-mails to answer. I pray to God that He will grant you a spirit of humility, wisdom, and understanding, if it be His will at this time.

Sincerely,
 
Ray

[grapehound]

Thanks John f K for pointing us here and thanks Marques for digging out that jewel.

Grateful Grape

[mharrell08]

Yes Marques, that's it.  The three lines you highlighted towards the end of the email.  The idea that Jesus coming in the flesh is when His Spirit enters our hearts, that is how He comes in the flesh.  It stuck in my mind as an interesting concept from Ray.  I never remembered that verse being put that way before.  Most interesting.

Me either but I think Ray actually brings it to light in the correct sense. Notice that John continues teaching of Christ IN us:

1 John 4:4-5  You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.

and confirms again in another epistle:

2 John v7-9  For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

And as Ray pointed out in the email, this only confirms the message that Christ gave to His disciples:

Excerpt from email from above:

After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again the THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:

"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).

Back to John:

"Remain IN ME.  I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).

We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:

"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).

And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. [Just as the apostle John says in 2 John v7-9]


Thanks again for the heads up John,

Marques