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Author Topic: CARNAL NATURE  (Read 8501 times)

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DougE6

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2011, 09:54:50 PM »

Psa 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I think everyone of us, except Jesus and Adam were conceived in the same way that David was, in sin.  Only Jesus and Adam were not conceived through physical sexual intercourse, or more precisely, the union of male sperm and female egg, but through the direct action of God in some way.  I think this is an important and planned distinction by God.   That is why I feel the carnal pulls and longings that Jesus felt were similar, probably/certainly the same as Adams prior to his disobedience,  those carnal pulls that Joe so aptly pointed out about how the longings of the carnal mind exist and how we through can spirit resist such; but I still struggle with the thought that Jesus had the same carnal mind as us who actually are disobedient and are guilty and are GIVEN OVER to even greater reprobate minds….

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:   Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:  Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I think this is what I was trying to say earlier, about the carnal mind, I think our present disobedient carnal mind has been given over to a degree of reprobateness that was never in Christ, because this kind of reprobateness was given to the actually disobedient.

I think Jesus did indeed feel all the longings and carnal pulls of the original Adam before Adam sinned, and that Jesus being the Second Adam, succeeded where the First Adam could not.  This was because He as Kat showed had the Holy Spirit, He was full of the spirit. 

So Jesus being the same as us, as our Adam, did indeed completely partake in our humanness and whatever carnal mind Adam had, but He did not participate in the reprobate mind found in all of the disobedient, including that of Adam, after Adam sinned. 

So I am careful about saying Jesus had a carnal mind because we have reprobate carnal minds, (until we are renewed, of course) and because our own minds are our only point of reference, we can think Jesus had the same mind as us, when we say that, and I don’t think He did, in that way. 

Of course he felt all the natural longings of hunger, tiredness, want, I am sure sexual desires, but He subjugated them all to the will of the Father and as Joe said, never worshipped the carnal mind, never became a slave of the carnal mind, and never had for a want of a better term a “fallen” carnal mind.  As He was never disobedient or guilty He could not have. 

Does this make any sense?  I am putting this out for all to comment.  BTW those articles, emails, of Rays were awesome!  I read them on my phone in the dentist chair, and read them again in the car, and again at home. Thanks Marques.

Doug
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mharrell08

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2011, 11:57:38 AM »

I think everyone of us, except Jesus and Adam were conceived in the same way that David was, in sin. Only Jesus and Adam were not conceived through physical sexual intercourse, or more precisely, the union of male sperm and female egg, but through the direct action of God in some way.  I think this is an important and planned distinction by God.   That is why I feel the carnal pulls and longings that Jesus felt were similar, probably/certainly the same as Adams prior to his disobedience,  those carnal pulls that Joe so aptly pointed out about how the longings of the carnal mind exist and how we through can spirit resist such; but I still struggle with the thought that Jesus had the same carnal mind as us who actually are disobedient and are guilty and are GIVEN OVER to even greater reprobate minds….


Doug, you can't know this for sure. We know the scriptures state Adam was made from the dust of the ground, but why would that be a literal statement? God refers to our physicality as 'dust' multiple times in the Scriptures:

Job 10:9  Remember, I pray, that You have made me like clay. And will You turn me into dust again?

Did not Job state he came from his mother's womb? [Job 1:21, 3:10] How could he be literal 'dust again' when he came from his mother's womb? Or is being 'from dust' a metaphor for being born from another person?

Ecc 3:20  All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

All are from the dust...is not Eve spoken of to be the mother of all living [Gen 3:20]? Not in the literal sense, but as in one who brings about life through childbearing?


Now regarding the original subject of this thread, carnality is carnality. There is no distinction between a carnal mind and a carnal nature. Paul talks about our 'nature' being a sinful one:

Eph 2:2-3  ...you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others

And while there is our sinful nature, there is a 'divine nature' as well:

2 Pet 1:2-4  Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

Paul tells us that OUR nature conducts in the lust of the flesh, Peter tells us that the DIVINE nature (from God and our Lord Jesus) gives us an escape from the pulls of the flesh. This divine nature is what Jesus had. Peter tells us this was an example [1 Pet 2:21] for us to follow and we do this by being 'partakers of the divine nature'. A divine nature is the complete opposite of a carnal nature.


Marques
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DougE6

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2011, 07:51:59 PM »

Hi Marques

I know Ray once wrote that satan, who like a roaring lion, seeks whom he may devour, and that satan, the metaphorical snake cursed to crawl on his belly and to eat dust all the days of his life, that indeed was not literal but was a very telling metaphor...that we(our carnal minds)  are a spiritual snack for satan!  Not that satan literally eats dust, and that he literally devours/eats us, but satan sure does feast off our carnal mind!  Our carnal mind with all its angers, and lusts, and jealousies, and envies, and faithlessness, and frustrations, and myriad sinful expressions provide a delicious snack for satan.  There is a lot of deep spiritual meanings in that we are of dust. And many more than I know of, the least not being, our "dustiness" is a humble start that connects us to the lower physical creation strongly.  In any respect, we are part and parcel of the physical world.

But like all good metaphors, is there not a lower sense, a literal sense, that is also actually literally true?  I mean, besides the hidden higher spiritual picture, explained above,  isn't there  the lower, more obvious non spiritual literal truth?  Are we not actually physically dust, in a literal way?  Are we not of the earth, earthly? As the First Adam was of the earth, earthly? As contrasted to what we will be, as the second Man from heaven, the Second Adam, who as you aptly pointed out, allows us to partake of the divine nature, the heavenly nature,  as he is not earthly one, the dusty one,  but heavenly one?

Does the fact that we eventually decay into dust shows that we literally are dust?  I think so.  When we die, our minerals, the iron in our blood, phosphorous in our ATP, the carbon, the calcium, the trace minerals,  the oxygen...yes oxygen is one of the most common elements in the earths dust, like 20%, all of our elements, all that we are returns to the dust from which it came, and this can be shown chemically!  All our physical structures are truly made from the elements found in dust of the ground.  Could not that be Gods way of showing us how totally and humbly tied to the physical world and creation our physical bodies actually are, and that is why in no small part our carnal minds are like the beasts of the field, in self centeredness.  Nature follows selfish laws, eat or be eaten, survival of the fittest, animals do NOT do until others as they would have others do unto them, quite the opposite, in fact! 

You are right that some things we cannot know for sure.  But AT LEAST  surely God must of started anew with Adam, in a giant and profound manner, (don't you think?)  no matter what type of man-being(yes I do, like Ray, believe in a long God directed creation process) may have preceded Adam, because Adam was the start of the race of the ones to be made into His image.  No other being has this honor.  In no other being would Christ be made into.  I like how the account seems like God is starting a new thing.  I personally like to take the account of Adams creation both literally and spiritually, that God did start with dust to make us, (though this can be true in either sense)  and understand we are actually dust, and to dust we shall return, yet see all the many and profound beautiful spiritual lessons of that too.  Yes I guess it is possible for God, to have done all this in a totally gradual way and at some point a man was sufficiently advanced that God began to work with him but that muddies the water for me personally to understand.   And yes, I think all the above metaphors could be fit into an approach, where Adam was brought into existence purely by natural means. But someday I guess we will actually see with total clarity.  I PREFER to think God directly intervened, and it happened just as described in Genesis, and was an example of Gods direct interventions that I think must of happened thousands of times throughout geological time, as He filled in all those gaps.

But on the less controversial, I really like to emphasize, as you brought forth, that we are to be partakers of the divine nature of Christ.  That is where we are going.  I understand that very well.  And that is where/what I want to be! A partaker of His nature.
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cjwood

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2011, 04:12:10 AM »

short answer for me is; Jesus Christ was born a human being, with a human brain.  not a carnal brain.  a human brain, and all that a human brain is possible of doing.  but, His heart was filled with the very Spirit of God the Father.  so, He could not sin, nor be base and carnal and all that comes with that mindset, because, it all stems from the heart.  in His heart He walked by the Spirit, our hearts are yet carnal.  until, we follow His Spirit with our hearts, and then our minds will follow...

claudia
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Joel

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2011, 07:34:51 AM »

A simple question that begs to be ask concerning Jesus is, What sin can one lay to The SON of God's charge? What can he be accused of?

I can't think of a single thing, Romans 8:33 ask " Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

Joel

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DougE6

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2011, 10:16:03 AM »


Claudia,

way to get to the "heart" of the matter.  Well said.  It all stems from the heart.

Doug
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mharrell08

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2011, 11:36:32 AM »

You are right that some things we cannot know for sure.  But AT LEAST  surely God must of started anew with Adam, in a giant and profound manner, (don't you think?)  no matter what type of man-being(yes I do, like Ray, believe in a long God directed creation process) may have preceded Adam, because Adam was the start of the race of the ones to be made into His image.  No other being has this honor.


That's not true either Doug. God said He is making man into His image in Gen 1:26-27. And as scientific evidence continues to show us, this happened long before Adam was created.

It is much more credible to believe that Adam was evolved from humans created in times past, than to be created out of literal dirt.


Also, getting back to the original subject, we're using more and more terms to describe the same thing and it's causing this subject to become very confusing. No offense to the original poster, but this entire premise was on false belief. A carnal mind is synonymous with a carnal nature, as it is the same as a carnal heart. Further more, the heart is the seat of emotions in the mind, and it only causes confusion to try to separate those two.

Jesus was made into human flesh but did not have a carnal heart, carnal nature, or carnal mind. Those three terms are pretty much all the same and none apply to the Son of the Highest. There have been ample scriptures provided that state Jesus was Holy and Righteous. Also, there have not been any scriptures given that state Jesus was made the same as Adam or had a carnal nature/mind or any of the sort. Jesus overcame the world, through The Father and that is the example we are to follow.


Marques
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DougE6

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2011, 02:30:09 PM »

Hi Marques

Why is it more credible to believe that Adam evolved from humans from times past, than created from literal dirt??  I think it is INcredible to believe any of the following came into being without Gods direct intervention in evolutionary process...  birds evolving from reptiles, amphibians from fish, mammals from reptiles, powered flight from terrestrial walkers, the metamorphosis of caterpillar to butterfly, feathers, mitochondria, that life(let alone the amazing complexity of cellular life) came into existence from inorganic slime, that DNA arose from only natural processes, that the genetic language(code) came into being on its own due solely to natural causes like selection, that human language was accidental, that Adam evolved from apes,  that all the huge leaps, the increasing information, and advances in evolution came about without the direct intervention(miracle) of God.  I see Adams creation in the same way.  Another direct intervention in a continuing process that is ever ongoing.  That is why the Genesis account of both the creation of the earth and cosmos and the creation of man are accounts of direct intervention, interspersed with time between each work. (days).

To me, the creation of Adam from dirt, is not incredible at all.  And I have no doubt that Jesus was a singular man, who walked the earth.  And  as Jesus is contrasted to Adam, I think Adam too, had to be an individual, similarly. There have been scripturally speaking, ONLY two men on this earth. the First Man, and the Second Man, the First Adam, and the Second Adam. ( There is no third or 500,000,000th man.  We are either in Adam, or in Christ.  I like all the spiritual lessons, understandings, and symbolism in being created from dirt, and I don't think it is less credible to believe in a creation from dirt, just as I believe God created everything else by stepping in many times.

Peace
Doug
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mharrell08

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2011, 03:09:35 PM »

Hi Marques

Why is it more credible to believe that Adam evolved from humans from times past, than created from literal dirt??

I like all the spiritual lessons, understandings, and symbolism in being created from dirt, and I don't think it is less credible to believe in a creation from dirt, just as I believe God created everything else by stepping in many times.

Because there seems to be more scientific evidence to suggest this possibility. We know God had direct intervention with Adam from the conversations they had, as recorded in the Scriptures. Also, God doesn't need to 'step in' to anything, when was He ever out? All things have their cohesion through God [Col 1:17] as God is working all things through Him [Eph 1:11].

My point was simply, we don't know, for sure, if being made from the dust of the ground is literal or not. You accept on faith that God made Adam out of dirt and that's fine.





And though Adam is said to be a shadow of Christ, that does not mean they are the same or even created the same. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit [Matt 1:20], whereas Adam was made from the 'breath of life' [Gen 2:7]. This same 'breath of life' is in all humans [Gen 7:22, Job 27:3, Ecc 3:19]. Jesus was born from a woman's womb but no man's sperm involved...you yourself believe that Adam was literally made from dirt. Many differences, especially in terms of how they came about in human form. Adam was carnal, Jesus was not, etc...

The reason why I have given this subject this much attention is because of this notion that Adam & Jesus were alike in some way. You misspoke when you said Jesus is contrasted TO Adam, He is not. Paul 'contrasts' between the two because they are completely different. The very definition of contrast is to compare in order to show their differences.

The church teaches that Adam was perfect like Christ, but 'freely' chose to do evil. They don't understand what carnality is and why Adam had no other recourse but to succumb to his carnality, just as any other human being. That is why Paul says we bear this image (carnal man indulging in his flesh) now, but later we shall bear the image of our Lord in Heaven [1 Cor 15:49].

I'm going to have to bow out now, too many subjects running in so many directions. But please stay with what the scriptures tell us, not what we suppose or speculate. Faith is about trusting God to do what He says He will do and/or has done. What can we believe if we place our conjecture before what He actually tells us?


Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2011, 04:21:40 PM »

1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy:

The first MAN, not the first Adam, the first man, is of the earth.
 
The first ADAM is a sentient natural man, made a living soul.
 
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
 
The LAST ADAM is a quickening Spirit.
 
1Co 15:45  ...the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The italics (was made) are not in the original manuscripts, are spurious. The "was made"  is not true of the quickening Spirit.

 ~ The first man is of the earth, the second man is of Heaven. ~

The  last man that the Scriptures refer to is the man who desires to be first, that must be last and servant of all as is, was and ever shall be, Jesus Christ is Himself.
Jesus is first and last, Son of man, Son of God, Alpha and Omega.

The SECOND man, is of Heaven.

1Co 15:47  ...the second man is the Lord from heaven.

We are of the second man of Heaven, and we bear the image of the first man of earth. The Spirit of the Last Adam, is revealed by the second man of Heaven, Christ in us
The last Adam is not said to be man. As Ray observes.... God is  Spirit....


Arc
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DougE6

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2011, 09:50:07 PM »

Hello Marques

I truly am grateful for your hard work as a moderator in conjunction with whatever else you do...I honestly don't know how you do it.

Just to use an imperfect analogy,  I have a small business.  And all things, people and equipment,  pretty much hum along according to the rules and protocols that I put in place.  So I do not directly do everything, my employees do what is expected with full understanding of what I would do if I was there,  knowing I am in the background and so they follow protocols, so everything goes according to plan...usually :-) (this is an imperfect analogy)  But sometimes something is so important I "step in" and do it all myself.  That is what I meant by God "stepping in" at various times in the creation, not that He ever "stepped out" no,  some things He just does in a more direct way, in the way the scriptures indicate. That is all I meant by God, "stepping in"  It was not to imply that even for a moment that all things were not indeed having their cohesion in God, or that God in any sense, had ever, "stepped out"  If God ever stepped out, the whole she bang would collapse. He sustains it all by His powerful word.

Now as for the other issue, we do have some very pointed scriptures...

Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

OK so Jesus was in all points tempted like as we, yet without sin

How was it possible that  Jesus could even be tempted?

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man

Because He was made like unto his brethren.  He was made in the likeness of men. He was found in fashion as a man.  Jesus condescended to become a man from the Highest.

Does this mean Jesus had a carnal mind? That all men have?

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Was Jesus mind ever in enmity with God?  NEVER.  He always was subject to the law of God.  Therefore I conclude He did not have a carnal mind.

OK so Jesus was tempted, in all points, was made like unto his brethren, was made in our likeness, in our fashion, and did not have a carnal mind.

How do we reconcile all that?  How can one even be tempted without a carnal mind?

OK first of all the Scriptures description of carnality is ONLY talking about all of us who have come forth since from the sinful Adam, and thus share in Adams mortality and death.  The scriptures discussion of the carnal mind has in view, what we all have inherited, AFTER the disobedience of Adam and Eve.  That is when death passed unto all men.  That is our inheritance in Adam, death,  now we are given over to reprobateness.  I spoke of this earlier in this thread, how God has given the disobedient over to a reprobate mind.  there  is a clear order here, the reprobate mind did not precede disobedience, it follows it.

God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Why did God give them over to this reprobate mind?

Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge....
Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This was part of Gods judgment, the result of the death sentence, that in the day ye shall eat, ye shall surely die.

Am I saying that the church is correct in saying that Adam and Eve were perfect at their creation?  NO  NO NO  The church thinks the only other option available before the disobedience is perfection,  but no, it is actually whatever mind and spiritual strength God had given Adam and Eve before their disobedience.

As Ray mentioned, in Eve, before the disobedience, in her,  there was present, the things of the world.... 1Jn 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Adam and Eve being of the world, had this in them! How do we know...

Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



But they still had to act!  They had to act, to be made guilty.  If Adam and Eve were not spiritually weak as water, if they would of been made very spiritually strong, if they would of been full of the spirit of God, if God would of made them strong enough, they would not of sinned!  Even with the temptation they felt!  GOD  made them spiritually weak.

Now Christ, on the other hand, had GREAT spiritual strength.  Whether God gave Him this great strength by virtue of His birth(avoiding Adams inheritance)  or through His spirit, or both, but I see that as the telling difference.  The level of spiritual strength!!!!!!!!

But I feel it is VERY IMPORTANT to know and understand that Christ was every bit as much man as Adam was, cause Christ was made man!   

And when Jesus was tempted, that temptation was REAL! How can Jesus be lauded for overcoming temptations which He did not actually feel or experience?  Of course the temptations were REAL.

But Christ never had a mind that was at enmity with God. Never.

I think that Jesus was made to be just like Adam, to be fashioned as a man,  BEFORE the disobedience.  It had to be before the disobedience because Jesus was  NOT born of ADAM!  He had no part of that sin in Him.  He was born of God in the likeness of Adam.  So Jesus the man was like the original Adam except He had MUCH greater spiritual strength and the spirit of God.

Now of course, Jesus has a spiritual body that we all will inherit someday. 

Now of course we have a much greater inheritance coming from the second Adam

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We have born the image of the earthly, we  shall bear the image of the heavenly. 

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Praise God we shall be like Him, the Last Adam, the Second Man, Jesus Christ.  We will have His inheritance!
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Akira329

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2011, 03:11:34 AM »

Quote
Just to use an imperfect analogy
Why would you say this? Let alone do this to describe God's actions??
Its best not to use these types of phrases("stepping in") to describe God. He has perfectly done so himself.
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.
Phrases like that can cause confusion in that I guess he can "step out" too!
We should just avoid confusion if possible.

As for temptation:
It is not a sin to be tempted
This section of scripture would be just weird if temptation was a sin!
Being drawn away of your own lust or yielding to that which tempts you is the sin!
Jas 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness
Jesus did not yield to any of it.
Example:
Temptation
Luk 4:3  And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
Yielding not to temptation
Luk 4:4  And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
It doesn't seem that Jesus gave it much thought before he answered.
He overcame.

This statement by you is very weird:
Quote
I think that Jesus was made to be just like Adam, to be fashioned as a man,  BEFORE the disobedience.  It had to be before the disobedience because Jesus was  NOT born of ADAM!  He had no part of that sin in Him.  He was born of God in the likeness of Adam.  So Jesus the man was like the original Adam except He had MUCH greater spiritual strength and the spirit of God.

How was Jesus born before Adam?? What are you getting at??
Are you assuming Adam was perfect? You contradict yourself, you said that you don't believe as the church does but you say this?
Also where are the scriptures for such a statement?
"Original Adam"??? Where are the scriptures that support this statement?
Again, are you assuming Adam was perfect?? In what manner??
Do you believe in "Original Sin"??

It's really hard to reply to your statements because your confusing so many different teachings.
I'm not sure if you believe one thing or not. :-\
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2011, 03:50:55 AM »



It is carnal to contend. It is worthy to Trust God.

    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me" (John 12:32).


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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2011, 03:59:43 AM »



No evil or carnality is big or bad enough to thwart the Will of God.

No guilt is large enough to blot out the Will of God.

Where sin abounds, Grace abounds much more. This is the Way of God.

We can not get out of that way, or The Way of God.

God shall have His Way!

Arc
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grapehound

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2011, 09:08:26 AM »

Amen Arc.
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Marky Mark

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2011, 01:26:37 PM »

Quote
It had to be before the disobedience because Jesus was  NOT born of ADAM!  ??? 
DougE6


What say the Holy Scripture...


Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Gal 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,  

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
 1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them

Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


 Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,

 Luk 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was [the son] of Jesse, which was [the son] of Obed, which was [the son] of Booz, which was [the son] of Salmon, which was [the son] of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was [the son] of Aminadab, which was [the son] of Aram, which was [the son] of Esrom, which was [the son] of Phares, which was [the son] of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was [the son] of Saruch, which was [the son] of Ragau, which was [the son] of Phalec, which was [the son] of Heber, which was [the son] of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was [the son] of Cainan, which was [the son] of Arphaxad, which was [the son] of Sem, which was [the son] of Noe, which was [the son] of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was [the son] of Mathusala, which was [the son] of Enoch, which was [the son] of Jared, which was [the son] of Maleleel, which was [the son] of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.



Gods Word never fails to show His Truth.

Peace...Mark
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aqrinc

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2011, 02:17:52 PM »


Gal 3:16-19 (KJV)
16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18  For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

george.

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DougE6

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2011, 05:40:09 PM »

Hello obviously my writing is to opaque

 I never denied in any way that Jesus was the promised seed, or of Abraham seed, or wasn't man, or come in the flesh, or anything remotely like that when I said he was not born of Adam,  but born of God. Jesus Father was God, (can we agree on that?) not Adam or any of Adams descendants. That was my point. Of course his mother was descent from Adam. But NOT HIS FATHER. His Father was GOD. Not any man not any descendant of Adam)  That is a BIG DEAL, and I felt that helped understanding.  I truly thought that train of thought was obvious.  In fact I STATED most explicitly that Jesus was in fact man very emphatically and he was made in fashion as a man....on and on...not sure how 4 words I had written in a row could be seized upon, ripped out of context.,( NOT born of ADAM!  He had no part of that sin in Him.  He was born of God ...that was the original context) so misunderstood, and then turned into an issue. whatever. My bad for not being clear.

These are my final thoughts on this matter and I will seriously reconsider posting from now on

1.  Jesus had an understanding of good and evil without ever experiencing disobedience.  This was quite unlike Adam. I missed this very big point earlier.  Adam had to disobey God to learn of good and evil, and had to eat of the tree.  Jesus had an understanding of good and evil from God without EVER disobeying.  I feel stupid for forgetting this obvious and very important difference.

2.  As I said before, most explicitly, several times, and to repeat again... Jesus did NOT have a carnal mind!!!!!

3.  So I was trying to wrestle with how Jesus can be tempted without a carnal mind, and how this can relate to US who most  decidedly DO HAVE carnal minds.  How can he be tempted in ALL POINTS as we ARE and yet NOT HAVE A CARNAL MIND?  How can He be tempted like me with a carnal mind, if He doesn't have one?  Has anyone else volunteered any thoughts how this could be?  No I don't see it.  Shoot me for trying. and as some have pointed out, being tempted by itself is not a sin, (yes that is true) but it doesn't answer the question.  We know God CANNOT be tempted.  And God clearly has NO carnal mind.  So how do we make it all fit? At least in my bungling I was trying to show that Jesus mind was not corrupt like all of Adams descendants, and the only thing I could POSTULATE was that in Adam, there must of been a BIG difference between Adams heart and mind, before and after the disobedience, that Jesus shared in common with the  UNDISOBEDIENT  Adam, but I am letting that go.  Because of point 1 above.  That helped my understanding a lot.

4.  When satan tempted Jesus, he did so by offering Jesus the easy way, the way to end His hardships, His hunger, His  pain and His suffering. So his human flesh could stop screaming for relief. To get all the kingdoms of the world, without the pain of the cross.  To feed Himself, and mitigate his hunger, and end his fast, with miracle power, so stepping out of the complete obedience to the will of God, and waiting on God. And so on.  To test Gods word by jumping off a cliff and proving his messiahship, you get the picture.

5.  Jesus testing and temptations were of continual and constant denial of the fleshly needs of being a human being.  Everyday of His life. Of putting aside his privileges at all times and at all times fully submissive to Gods will.  From this He never wavered.  Even at the cross, when the full magnitude of what was to happen was upon Him, he persevered and passed on the easy way and faced the cross full blast.

6.  So in that constant submission, in that continual denial of his flesh, was Jesus temptations.  They are indeed in all points like us, because saying NO is saying NO.  Denying oneself is the very CRUX of overcoming temptation and then emerging victorious.  And Jesus said NO in a far greater way and far greater extent than we ever will.  I know my flesh would of strayed many times.

So Jesus wasn't carnal, His mind was pure, and His heart was holy, but He denied Himself and His fleshly needs and His very human needs BY complete submission to the Father.  He had all the human fleshly wants and needs that our physical bodies do. But He never strayed from the will of God.  That is how I see that Jesus  could be in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.  And he did NOT have our carnal minds which are guilty, sinful, and in open rebellion to Gods laws, and cannot obey them.
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mharrell08

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Re: CARNAL NATURE
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2011, 07:21:40 PM »

So Jesus wasn't carnal, His mind was pure, and His heart was holy, but He denied Himself and His fleshly needs and His very human needs BY complete submission to the Father.


Good comment Doug. I think we can all agree this subject has run its course.

There's no need to stop posting Doug. Just remember that on occasion, a lot gets lost in translation when communicating through a message board (tone of voice, facial expressions, etc.) that we as humans depend on everyday in our communications. We all just have to exhibit patience with one another, this is no one's fault.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 07:25:47 PM by mharrell08 »
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