Adam and Adam's love for Eve

[Oatmeal]

From: "The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A":

"You see, Adam was willing to die for his new bride, just as Jesus was willing to die for His bride, the church."

And:

"Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife."

These quotes puzzle me.

I know that there is love, and there is love, but the English language does not directly define between them, and in some people's mind love means love, and they think of it as love, when actually it doesn't, and it isn't.  So what was the love that Adam had for his wife?  Was it unselfish love, the real love, God's love, the love of 1 Corinthians 13?  Without this love, even if a person should die for another, the person would profit NOTHING.  "Nothing" means absolutely zilch.

Is Ray saying that Adam had true unselfish love?  If so, how could Adam have this love, considering that he was carnal?

"They were as carnal-minded as any two people who have ever lived."

Adam enjoyed Eve's company (well let's assume that he did).  If you miss somebody and enjoy their company does that mean that you love them?  Could it possibly mean that you love the good feelings that they give YOU and maybe you will care for them so that the good feelings continue, and only for that reason will you continue to "love" them?

Think about it deeply, even think about it shallowly, because it doesn't take much thinking: how many men would "love" a woman if they didn't have a p*n*s?  What is really driving them, even the real nice ones, even the real "loving" ones?

Perhaps the above paragraph shocked some of you.  I want to get down to the harsh realities.

I cannot understand why Ray said that Adam was willing to die for Eve.  Didn't Adam's willingness to die serve only himself if it was because he didn't want to miss her?  How would his death profit Eve?  Of course it profited Eve from God's perspective, but how did it profit Eve from Adam's perspective, from what he could see?  If his death didn't profit Eve, how was it love?  Probably some will say that Adam wanted Eve to have company in her dying, well that's really nice, but if he truly loved her, why didn't he ask God if he could take her place (die instead of her) instead of dying with her?  Perhaps he didn't think of it – but was that because of lack of intelligence or lack of love and lack of understanding of what love is?

A woman is caught on the second story of a building on fire!  The man gets a ladder!  Surely he will rescue her, or at least try!  But no!  This is a real man!  Instead of rescuing her, he joins her!  What a man!  What love!

I honestly can't see that Adam was anything but selfish.  Can someone help me here?  Why does Ray say the things he does about Adam's love and at least imply that it was real love?  Or have I misunderstood that?

I know a man who was driving.  It was a mini-bus.  Someone annoyed him, probably something very minor.  In his heart, this man sent the person straight to hell (at the time he did not know that hell did not exist).  In his heart, this man had no mercy.  No mercy whatsoever, and therefore, I assume, no love.  This experience happened twice, as far as I recall.  Perhaps Adam did love, and if he did, then he was far better than this man.

In his heart this man was king over all of his fellow human beings, and at that time he had had no teaching that the "man of sin" was himself.

I also know a man who is very aware that a man can swim a thousand oceans, pass over high mountains, cross searing deserts, for a woman, but it is all for himself.  Perhaps Adam did love, and if he did, then he was far better than that man.

That man needs to walk the narrow way until God fully shows him his sin, his lack of love.  Please pray for that man, that God will bring him to His light.

[GaryK]

From: "The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A":

"You see, Adam was willing to die for his new bride, just as Jesus was willing to die for His bride, the church."

And:

"Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife."

These quotes puzzle me.

Is Ray saying that Adam had true unselfish love?  If so, how could Adam have this love, considering that he was carnal?

"They were as carnal-minded as any two people who have ever lived."

It appears to me, at a quick glance, that Ray answered your puzzlement, ie: the 'carnal minded' part.

I could be wrong but is it possible for 'carnal' to equal 'true, unselfish' love as what would be equal to the love from God?

gk

[grapehound]

How many women would love a man that didn't have a penis?

[Joel]

There would be no Eve without Adam, she came from his body, the same as the Church came from Jesus Christ, and would not exist without him.

Its hard not to love something that is a part of you.

Joel

[octoberose]

You know Grape, at this time in  my life I know several women who's husbands have no prostate and that's sorta the same thing, at least functionally between a man and his wife. And they are faithful to him and love him regardless. I know I would.

[cjwood]

fyi, many women love men who are paralyzed from the waist down.  go figure grape?!  i do understand where your initial thought came from.  that carnal man...

claudia
a carnal woman...

[Dawidos]

Well, the exception proves the rule. I think Grape was saying that most men or women who are carnally minded, pay a lot of attention to appearance at first, but of course there are many people who love for many other reasons, which are closer to the spiritual definition of love.

Please, don't feel wrong about Grape. He is a very kind and nice mammal 

[grapehound]

I did figure that turning Octoberose's question around would either provoke laughter or the venting of spleen.
Mirrors are treacherous things; without make up. 

Thanks for catching the ball, John K !
WTG Dawidos !

The oyster owes much to irritation.   

Luv Y'all

Grape x

[mharrell08]

From: "The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A":

"You see, Adam was willing to die for his new bride, just as Jesus was willing to die for His bride, the church."

And:

"Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife."

These quotes puzzle me.

John 15:13  Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

Rom 5:7  Very few people will die to save the life of someone else. Although perhaps for a good person someone might possibly die [NCV]


Ray is teaching from the scriptures that state how Adam was not deceived. He willingly chose to die.

1 Tim 2:13-14  For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression


And Adam tells God why he made this decision:

Gen 3:9-12  Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, "Where are you?" So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."

And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?" Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."

I know there are some who look at this passage as Adam blaming Eve (especially the church), but I think Ray is showing a different perspective from that. I know from reading his teachings, he's highlighted the 'the woman whom You gave to be with me' excerpt. See below:

Excerpt from Mobile Conference 2006 (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27966.html#msg27966):

Now an interesting thing.  It says in Tim. 2:14, that when Eve took the forbidden fruit she was deceived, the serpent had deceived her.  But Adam was not deceived.  Well if she was deceived, and she ate the fruit.  Why did Adam eat it?  He wasn't deceived, so why did he eat it?  Why didn't he say you dumb female, you stupid wife of mine.  How could you do such a dumb thing.  No, no he did not.  She gave him some and he ate it too. 
Why would he do that?  He knew.  Because God told him first, and He told him specifically.  And we know Eve knew because she said to the serpent, "God has said."  But first He said it to Adam before he created Eve.  You can eat of every tree but of this tree you can not and the day you eat there of you will DIE. (Gen. 2:16-17)
In the Hebrew, 'to die you shall be dying."  You will begin to die, you will be mortal and just die.  You will be mortal and come to old age and die.  So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die.  He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die.  He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I'm going to die with her, and he ate the fruit.  He knew full well he would die, and he said I'm going with her.  I'm not going to let her go alone, you see.  So he was willing to die for that woman.
You see any spiritual connections?

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it [He died],
v. 26  that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
v. 27  that He might present it to Himself as the glorious church, without spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.
v. 28  So men ought to love their wives as their own bodies.

The first woman came from the body of man.

v. 28 "He who loves his wife loves himself.
v. 29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord loves the church.
v. 30  For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones."

Adam said to the woman, she is flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone, she came out of me.

So we are members of His body, flesh of his flesh and it says;

Gen 2:24 For this cause, will a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

When a man and a woman are united in sexual intercourse their bodies are inside of each other.  I mean that's a pretty good connection, that's not just a hand shake.  Your bodies are literally inside of each other (I hope I'm not too gross, but there are no children).  They are one flesh, in that relationship, you see.  And that is why you're not supposed to fornicate with prostitutes.  Because when you're joined to a prostitute you're one flesh too, and that's an abomination.  You cling to your wife, not your wife and your girl friend and the local whore.  Your wife, because your one flesh, you see.
This is a great mystery it says.  But I'm speaking concerning Christ and His church.  The relationship of Christ with the church, it's typified by the relationship of a loving husband and a loving wife in sexual intercourse.  When they are so emotionally intertwined with one another, that they are literally one flesh.  This is the relationship we're going to have with God.  Christ refers to the church as the Bride of Christ. 
The bride is going to be all decorated, by that we mean, made spotless and sure and clean, character wise.  A fitting Bride for the creator of the universe.


As Ray points out, the apostle Paul likened the relationship of a husband & wife to Christ and the church. This is the same parallel that Ray highlights when he notes how Adam was willingly to die for his bride as Christ is for His bride.

Now while they are parallel or similar, they are not the same. Paul notes how Adam is a shadow of Christ throughout his epistles, but a shadow is not the same as the original. Just something to keep in mind.



Marques

[grapehound]

Thanks Marques

Excellent stuff

Grape

[Kat]

1Co 15:45  So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.

Adam was a natural man and repersents the physical. As Marques said this is the physical shadow that comes first. Adam 'phileo' loved his wife as much as he could as a natural man, this was not a godly agape love, it was a recipicating type love a man has for his wife.

The last Adam - Christ takes this love to the spiritual level and shows what a selfless 'agapao' love is He has for His church and ultimately for all humanity.

This is from the 'Love' Bible study.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.msg27959.html#msg27959 ---

Remember I gave you two definitions, and I said agapao is like a one-way street. The good Samaritan did not expect anything in return, for helping that man, who was dying on the side of the road, it's a one-way love.

But then I said, this phileo, this brotherly love, this affectionate love, this give you a kiss on the cheek love, this is like a two-way street. That the reason we have this love for a close friend or wife and children, is because they reciprocate. You hug them, they hug you back. You do a favor for them, they do a favor for you back. You help them, they help you, you feel sad, when they feel sad, they feel sad when you feel sad. That's why you get so close, you support each other, you love each other, you're physically in contact, you see.
v

By the way, this was a revelation to me. Do you know several places in the New Testament, where it says "kiss," it means kiss (a smacking sound with the lips). Well guess what that word is? It's the same word phileo.

Phileo not only means affectionate love and adoration, and fondness for fellow brothers or sisters, it means kiss. Because you kiss someone you're fond of, that's how close they are connected.

So God does not tell us, we have to phileo our enemies or that we have to phileo our next door neighbor.

Agapao is a more formal, it's not a give and take, two-way street. It's a one-way street, forgiving humanity for the evil that they have.
v

God of love -agape, is a one-way street, God loves, He gives. It's not based on whether the ones He gives it to, loves Him back.

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, right. Why? Because He loves us, "for God so loved the world." That includes all these drug dealing, wife beating, God defying people. He so loved the world, did they love Him back? No, very few people love God back. It's a one-way street... He loves. He's the One that loves, not getting anything back for it, He loves.

But phileo love, is where two people are fond of each other and they're responsive to each other. It has to do with affections, based on the approval of the one you're giving out to, you see. Why are people friends? Because they reciprocate, right.
v

So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love. A love that is undeserved, they're not reciprocating. Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love. Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said;

Luke 23:34  Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing.

Now that's agape love.
----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dawidos]

So Kolbe deciding to sacrifice his life for another man, completely strange for him, is an example of human type-agape love?

[Kat]

Hi Dawidos,

Agape love is a love that you do not expect anything in return. It's like the sacrifical love that Christ had to die on the cross while we were yet sinners. So yes I think your example would fit.

Here is more from the 'Love' Bible study.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.msg27958.html#msg27958 ---

In the New Testament, we have the word agápē (we have a little different explanation for that) - a complex emotion arousing appreciation or delight in and desire for the presence of it's object; as well as to please and promote it's welfare.

Now here is the word phileo. We understand the word Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, Philadelphia - it means to be fond of, responsive, affection based on approval and regard.

That's a little complicated, basically it's this. God of love -agape, is a one-way street, God loves, He gives. It's not based on whether the ones He gives it to, loves Him back. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, right. Why? Because He loves us, "for God so loved the world." That includes all these drug dealing, wife beating, God defying people. He so loved the world, did they love Him back? No, very few people love God back. It's a one-way street... He loves. He's the One that loves, not getting anything back for it, He loves.

But phileo love, is where two people are fond of each other and they're responsive to each other. It has to do with affections, based on the approval of the one you're giving out to, you see. Why are people friends? Because they reciprocate, right.
v

We can love our neighbor, with an agape love, we don't need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies. If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.
v

Christ said, but I say unto you, love your enemies - agapao your enemies. Can you love your enemies and hate them at the same time? You say, 'no you can't, that's a contradiction.' Well, let's think about that for a second. Could God hate Esau and love him a the same time? Not only could He, the Bible tells us that, and it shows that He did. He shows more favor to Jacob then He did for Esau. Yet you can find some pretty strong promises and blessings (even though He said I hate Esau), you can find blessings on Esau in the Bible I can show you them.

God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world. Why? Because I agapao them. God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality. I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao. Maybe we need to learn to do that too. If we're going to be like God, right.
v

Why does God love us, His elect? Because we loved Jesus Christ and to the Father that is the same as loving Him. Because no man has ever seen the Father or heard His voice at any time. But Jesus has made Himself known, in Spirit, in the Comforter and through His Word, you see.

So there's your phileo love and it's God's definition. God agape loves us, even if we spit in His face. But that's the reason He phileo loves us and He loves us and not the world. He does not, so phileo the world, it is not in there. He agape's the world and not phileo them.

The only places you will see God phileo anyone, is His Son and us, the Elect, no one else. Those who reciprocate, He loves us because He said (He is talking to His disciples now), My Father loves you and they didn't know that before. But He said, I am telling you, My Father loves you, and the reason is, "because you loved Me." I've given them Your Word, I've been teaching you, it's the same as the Father. The words that I speak, Christ said, they are the Father's (John 14:10). The things that I do, the works that I do, it's all the Father. You accepted and reciprocated and love Me for it, and that is why My Father loves you. There it is!

So we need to have this agape love for our neighbors. Maybe we don't like them, maybe they're not even good people, for our enemies, surely aren't good people, or there would not be a reason for them to be your enemy.

For the whole world, we have to have this agapao love. But no where does God say we have to phileo them, or love them with affection, like a brotherly love, where we would hug them or give them a kiss.
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[judith collier]

Oatmeal, Jesus said, "If you love me then my father who is in heaven will love you and I will manifest myself to you"
What a most gracious undeserved love is this that a God for the mere sake of our human affection towards Him would show Himself to us. And Yet he does! Adore Him, praise Him, love Him and once you get a taste of that love of His you will begin to grow in it and that by His doing also.
love, judy

[Oatmeal]

Adam was shocked.  He never knew such despair existed.  Sobs wracked his wife's body.  His wife.  His own flesh.  Her perfectly formed breasts quivered with each word that she spoke, such was the intensity of her speech and of her emotion:  "I didn't know.  He tricked me."  "Please", she pleaded, as she held the fruit out to his lips, please don't let me die alone, please be with me.  I am so afraid".   Adam looked into her eyes, those beautiful eyes, eyes now filled with tears and despair and her pleading.  He took her hand, the one that held the fruit to his lips, and firmly supported it from behind.  He looked deep into her eyes.  Hesitating for just one fraction of a second, he bit deeply into the fruit.

?

[grapehound]

Hey Oatmeal,
Ya might have told us you were using the 1972 Mills & Boon Translation !   

[Oatmeal]

Thank you Marques and Kat for earlier bringing this thread back on track.

In reference to the "Mills & Boon" version of part of Genesis 3:6: I thought that it might help my understanding if I put myself in the place of Adam (as if I was Adam).

We are sure quite complicated as human brings.

I wrote the "Mills & Boon" version in an attempt to make myself agree with Ray and Bible Truths and Marques and Kat and forum members.  I wanted to be a good person.  I wanted to agree and I wanted to say that had repented of a wrong attitude and I wanted everything to flow smoothly.  I realised a day or two after writing that I was lying to you in my attempt to agree and that that wasn't my true position - I did not agree that the love of Adam was something as wonderful as Ray seemed to say that it was.  And then I had a deeper realisation of myself.  In my writing I was laughing at those who think that the love of Adam was something wonderful and that is the reason that I made it a bit risqué, or whatever the word is.  My true thoughts came out in my writing, that I thought that the love of Adam was just a carnal love.  I don't think that I had the right to laugh at others on the forum, although I was not fully conscious of what I was doing at the time, and I apologise for writing in that way.

[grapehound]

Apologies for any offence, Oatmeal.
Sincerely not intended.

grape 

[Oatmeal]

To my brother Grape

I did laugh at your earlier post and at the response by John from Kentucky.  I was disappointed that the thread continued to go off track though.

Your Mills & Boon response was funny and thanks for your input there.

[grapehound]

Thanx Bro'
Luv Ya