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[Linny]

I would like to hear more about:
1) Patriotism and pledging to flags. At our co-op we have 3 pledges which I told my kids they didn't have to do.
American flag, Christian flag and the Bible.
2) Exorcism-since it is such a hot topic in our culture and I know people who have done them who aren't even Catholic.
Lin

[Linny]

Oh, I have always loved Ray's quote here on politics...

"A true follower of Jesus cannot be involved in politics. Jesus certainly did not take part in any such worldly activities.
I am an "Ambassador for Christ" (I Cor 5:20). Ambassadors cannot legally take part in the politics of foreign nations.  Jesus never, ever got involved in the operations of the Roman Government over the Jews. We are never taught to "march on Washington," etc. But we are told to COME OUT OF THE WORLD and be separate. "Let the DEAD bury the dead."

[the truth]

i would say coming from a faith movement church. that i could never understand why they ALWAYS proclaimed that the lord was going to bring this hugh revival in these end times. and that the church was not even going to be able to hold the crowds...lol...what is that?

[believerchrist100]

I would like to hear more about:
1) Patriotism and pledging to flags. At our co-op we have 3 pledges which I told my kids they didn't have to do.
American flag, Christian flag and the Bible.
2) Exorcism-since it is such a hot topic in our culture and I know people who have done them who aren't even Catholic.
Lin

I almost instantly thought of this excerpt from the 2007 Nashville Conference when I read that:
 
Somebody ask me last week about demons.  There really are these things.  I’ve had a little experience and I know some of them by name. 

My friend, Eliot from Brooklyn, we went to college together.  I was living in Mobile at the time, I had moved away for 20 years, then came back.  We were going to meet at Mt. Pocono, because there was a large church up there.  We were in Worldwide and they had a festival up there, so I was going to meet Eliot there.  It was one of those spooky nights.  By the time the last service was over and with the fellowshipping.  The sun was going down, it got dark early and it was raining and foggy. 

One of the ministers came up to Eliot and me and ask us to come to a side room, ‘We have a little problem.’  We said okay, we’ll help and went with him.  So in the room there was about 5 of us and there was this women.  She was about 75 years old, with gray hair, a little on the hefty side.  She was acting strange.  So we ask what was going on, and he said, ‘well we think Anne is having a problem.’  So we were gathered around and Anne was looking a little strange, she would snarl her face up and say, ‘I know who you are.’  This was a 75 year old woman, with gray hair and she is talking like a monster, you know.  We said, okay we know what we got here. These things would take her over and she would get violent and wanted to attack us.  There were five strong men, in our 30’s trying to hold her down. 

This was a 75 year old lady, each of us had one arm one leg, she was just violent.  We would ask, ‘who are you?’  She would just snarl and then she would give us a name.  We didn’t know, so we would just command these things to come out, in the name of Jesus Christ.  And then she would settle down and be like, ‘what are you all doing?’  We’d say, well you’re not feeling to good Anne, ‘well, what’s wrong?’  You are just not feeling good right now.  Then her face would snarl up and she would start yelling at us.  We would say, who are you?  It’s kind of comical now, I don’t think that demons are smart.  I remember that at one point there was one, I did know them all, but I started to forget them.  But this one was named Bok, and we cast out Bok.  Then we cast out a bunch of others.   So one after the other, they would just take her and we’d cast them out, then she would just settle down and be fine.  She would say, ‘what’s wrong, why am I on the floor?’  She didn’t know what was happening.  We would ask each one’s name and it was a different demon.  One time I ask who are you, and it said ‘Bouk,’ we said wait a minute we just cast you out, it said, ‘no, that was Bok, I’m Bouk.’  I’m serious. 

We were there for an hour or two, casting out demons.  Some of them just would not come out, it said, ‘the master would be very angry.’  We ask who is the master, it said, ‘ Beelzebub is the master.’  They didn’t want to come out.  Then she would settle down for a while.  Then this one, we said who are you, it said ‘no’  we said we command you in the name of Jesus Christ what is your name, ‘no’  we said we command you, you have to tell us, ‘my name is no.’  She would settle down and then another would take her over and she would want to attack us and kill us.  I tell you by the time we were done, it was enervating.  We knew we were in a different realm.  We ask them questions and we ask them about stuff, we knew about to see if they knew about it.  So this stuff is real.  This is not fairy land or the wizard of Oz, this stuff really does exist.  They're spirits in the air. 

That said, those are two things I would most certainly like to hear about too.

Patrick

[cjwood]

just responding to aatos; remember then we will be like Him, and to Him a day is as a thousand years and a thousands years as a day.  so, Who knows....

claudia

[daywalker]

1. Christian Patriotism

That is a good one.  In many conservative churches if you don't stand lock step with supporting the military and every military action this country takes then your not a real believer.  My church was like that.  And in many of the mainline churches if your not a liberal and into social justice then your not a believer either.

Aw, yes.. the never-ending Crusades... Different disguises, different names, different reasonings, ...yet it's all the same... "Christians" vs "Muslims" everywhere you turn these days

And unless you support killing enemies, you're an evil, unpatriotic and horrible person...

[Linny]

I thought of something else last night. Wondering if anyone knows where Ray may have talked about this.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I recall the church teaching is that the Holy Spirit came to live inside us only after Pentecost. I'd be very interested in what Ray has to say about this from his own studies since I now question everything I've ever been taught.

[walt123]

Hello,Dennis

I was listening to the audio tape,biblestudy April 07,which ray said he was going
to write about the law of moses,and that the law is spiritual,I guess in more detail.
Did ray ever write on just this subject?
Walt.

Re: Dates To Remember . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy April 2007
Now I allowed someone in our midst to influence me in a wrong way, because I didn't have time to look at these things. I didn't have time to study every word and every phrase, every sentence, every verse, every doctrine in the Bible, all at the same time in great detail. This is just unfathomable, so I had somebody that we allowed to put some material on our site even. Because I thought some of it was correct, even though I had a couple of problems with some things. I mean the law paper that is no longer up there, I had a problem with that before it was put up and I let it slide, to my own chagrin. Because I mentioned at the time, but you are not covering in here the aspect that the law is spiritual. The law of Moses is spiritual!

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual

It was, ‘no Ray, no that is talking about the spiritual law is spiritual…’ You know I let it slide. I corrected a lot of stuff in that paper and some of that stuff in that paper was mine anyway. That long chart of the Old Testament and the New Testament, the old covenant and the new covenant, the differences, it was several pages of material. But I let that slide.
 
         
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 11:11:01 AM by Kat »       

THE LAW OF MOSES


But when I write about the law one day, I will have to do a paper on the law and trust me you are going to see Romans 7:14. “…we know that the law…” What law? It’s mentioned about ten times in that chapter… “the law of Moses…” “the law of Moses…” “the law of Moses…” “For we know that the law is spiritual…” Oh but we are not talking about the law of Moses? Oh yes we are, it didn’t changes gears there in mid stream.

[believerchrist100]

What about the doctrine of making confessions?

Brad

Seeing as most of my family are catholic I will definitely second this one

And since my family is Catholic, I'll third that one and maybe the doctrines of Mary's immaculate conception, assumption, and perpetual virginity too. 

[Craig]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/24/cnnheroes.sawo.hiv/index.html?hpt=T2

Without discussing what her current condition is (spiritually and physically) it is sad how this belief has hurt so many people.

[mharrell08]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/24/cnnheroes.sawo.hiv/index.html?hpt=T2

Without discussing what her current condition is (spiritually and physically) it is sad how this belief has hurt so many people.

Excerpt from article:

"The church must change its attitude," she said. "HIV is not a moral issue. It's a virus."


That pretty much says it all.

[Linny]

Thanks for sharing that Craig.

[Rene]

Ray and I were talking today (he's about the same) and we were wondering about any traditional church doctrines he has not touched on. We could not think of any.

Can anyone think of and mainstream doctrines Ray has not mentioned in his writings?

There's no real meaning for this question other than my curiosity.

Thanks,

Dennis

The Word of Faith movement aka 'Name It and Claim It'.
His 2008 bible study 'Sowing Spiritual Seed' only lightly touched on it, if I recall. But I haven't heard it in awhile.

Now that I am paying more attention to what is being said to me by those who are still deep into Bablyon, I have to agree with Marques that this "Name It and Claim It" doctrine is being spewed constantly by them.  It has nothing to do with spiritual growth, it seems to only pertain to the gaining of physical possessions or higher positions in this world.  It is a huge part of the "prosperity" ministry. 

René

[Foxx]

A little off topic but there is a fascinating documentary about HIV and AIDS that will most likely open your eyes to many truths about the disease. It's called "House Of Numbers"

This is a link to a clip of the film and in it the discoverer of HIV, Dr. Luc Montagnier, is being interviewed here. This isn't just some random person, this is the guy who was researching this from the very beginning of it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQoNW7lOnT4


Just thought I would share. Speaking of which it would be interesting to hear some more on healing and diseases. Unless I missed something on the site but I would like to learn more about the legitamacy about it. Jesus speaks of using the holy spirit to cast out demons, spirits, healing etc. and that WE should do these things but I don't know if this meant for us or specifically for the disciples to whom is was talking. I'm just wondering that.

Oh and one more thing. I hear preachers saying that these prophets from the old testament had the Holy Spirit speaking to them but am I wrong is saying that is inaccurate?

[dave]

What about "alter calls," I have not found a foundation in the Word for alter calls.

[Dennis Vogel]

The rest of our conversation was that everything of any consequence the church teaches (not says) is 180 degrees opposite of the truth.

My question to Ray was "is there anything of any consequence the church teaches you have not taught on?" We both thought it over for a few minutes and could not come up with anything. But there are some things to think about here.

The point I was trying to make is the truth is always the opposite of what the church as a whole teaches.

If you have questions and want to know the truth, it's usually the opposite of what the church teaches (not says, e.g., they say Christ died for our sins, but they teach He never really died but was preaching in Hell).

This to me is a miracle and constantly amazes me.

[Craig]

Wasn't there a post or paper on that.  Something like the bible says this but the church says that?   I can't find it, anyone remember where it is?

Craig

[mharrell08]

Wasn't there a post or paper on that.  Something like the bible says this but the church says that?   I can't find it, anyone remember where it is?

Craig

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 2 (http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html):

THEY SPEAK WITH FORKED TONGUE

Most all Christian theologians would claim to believe the first statement of Scriptural Truth that I present below, especially when I cite a Scripture verse with it, but they will then contradict and refuse to teach the second statement of Truth. Here are a few examples:

Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mans’ works, but not the man himself? Yes.

But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.

Do they believe that God is the Creator of ALL? Yes.

But do they teach that God created EVIL as He says in (Isa. 45:7)? No.

Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.

But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over man’s supposed "free" will? No.

Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No.

Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes.

But do they teach the truth therefore that men’s souls are mortal and not immortal? No.

Do they believe that the original manuscripts of God’s Word were inerrant? Yes.

But do they teach us that the King James translation, which they say is "inerrant" has gone through THOUSANDS of error corrections since 1611? No.

Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.

But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No.

Do they believe there are many cults today that need exposing? Yes.

But do they teach that Christendom, by its OWN definitions, is also a cult? No.

Do they believe that Sodom is "suffering the vengeance of eternal [aeonian] fire? Yes.

But do they teach that Sodom will be restored to their former estate (Ezek. 16:55)? No.

Do they believe in a future resurrection of dead people back to life (John 5:29)? Yes.

But do they teach that a resurrection is imperative for dead people to live again? No.

Do they believe the first half of I Cor. 15:22 that "For as in Adam ALL die?" Yes.

But do they teach the last half, "even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive?" No.

Do they believe that "...the end of the world [Gk: aion -- age]" ends in Mat. 24:3? Yes.

But do they teach that this same "aion -- age" in Matt. 25:41 & 46 will also end. No.

Do they believe that Jn 3:13 & Acts 2:34 are truthful Scripture (II Tim. 3:16)? Yes.

But do they teach this truth that "NO man," including David, has gone to heaven? No.

Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.

Do they believe that Satan lied when he told Eve, "thou shalt not surely die?" Yes.

But do they teach the truth that sinners really do DIE at death as God has stated? No.

Do they believe that the Apocryphal books do not belong in the Bible? Yes.

But do they teach us that the 1611 so-called "inerrant" King James Bible contained fourteen such books, including "Tobit," "Judith," "The idol Bel and the Dragon"? No.

Do they believe that Christ is totally responsibility for our salvation? Yes.

But do they teach that "no man can" come to Christ of himself (John 6:44)? No.

Do they believe that Satan is the greatest sinner of all? Yes.

But do they teach Jn. 8:44 which states that Satan "sinned from the beginning?" No.

Do they believe Christ really died for the sins of the world? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ was dead when they placed Him in the tomb? No.

Do they believe the many Scriptures that liken death to "sleep?" Yes.

But do they teach that dead people are unconscious, "sleeping" till resurrection? No.

Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.

But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.

Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.

But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.

Do they believe that every tongue in heaven and earth will confess Jesus as LORD? Yes.

But do they teach that the Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act (I Cor. 12:3)? No.

Do they believe that good and evil are both in the same tree of knowledge? Yes

But do they teach that good and evil both come from the same root source? No.

Do they believe that God absolutely "knows all" (I John 3:20)? Yes.

But do they teach that God knows in advance ALL who will reject Christ? No.

Do they believe that God’s love will never fail (I Cor. 13:8 )? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No.

Do they believe the apostles spoke in foreign languages in Acts 2:4-11? Yes.

But do they teach that of the hundreds of thousands who claim to speak in tongues today, not one of them can speak in multiple languages which they did not already study? No.

Do they believe that the masses did not understand Christ’s parables (Mat. 13:13)? Yes.

But do they teach that Christ purposely didn’t want them to understand, (Vs. 14-17)? No.

Do they believe the Old Covenant contained the Ten Commandments (Deut.4:12)? Yes.

But do they teach a New Covenant which contains a much higher law (Heb. 8:8-9)? No.

Do they believe that God created all the spirits and messengers of heaven? Yes.

But do they teach that God also created Satan who was always His adversary? No.

Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.

But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No.

There seems to be no end to the Scriptural contradictions of Christian beliefs. But we can learn from their mistakes. It is good for us that God makes us dig deep for the precious gems of His word. It really is like searching for hidden treasure. And I have never found a hidden treasure in God’s Word that has disappointed me. Each new discovery brings more appreciation for God and His plan of salvation for all.

[Deborah-Leigh]

I love this concluding sentence Ray writes after noting so many yes, no, contrasts and then he says with profound authority and Truth : Each new discovery brings more appreciation for God and His plan of salvation for all.  

Arc

[Craig]

That was one Marques, but I don't think that was the one I had in mind.