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Making the Grade

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Dave in Tenn:
As per usual, I'm unable to quote you just what article or transcript this appears in, but Ray makes the point that if anybody believed exactly like he did, they would behave exactly like he did. 

Exactly?  Exactly.  To me, that's what James both says and means.  "Show me your faith by your works."  Now, I don't know of any TWO of us who has exactly identical faith/belief.  The one thing that I'm certain of is that if I spent enough time talking with anybody on earth--including this forum--I'd find something to disagree with them about sooner or later.  That might be because I'm by nature disagreeable, but I tend to believe its because not one of us has arrived where we are BY THE GRACE OF GOD in exactly the same way to produce exactly the same faith.  We are only alike because we are being made in the image of God.  Christ is the head from which ALL the various parts (that's us) spring, each being different.  It's HIS head, mind, spirit that determines the function of US.

Scripture is given for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be MADE perfect.  We don't have a creed.  Creeds are for babylon.  We HAVE Inspired Scripture and hundreds and hundreds of pages and hours of sound teaching, and the urge (Lord willing) to study to shew ourselves approved.  Doctrine matters.  Reproof matters.  Correction matters.  Instruction in Righteousness matters.  None of it fits on a bumper sticker.  None of it is taught fully and correctly in churches.  Faith, patience and long-suffering are required and these will be developed in us/provided to us by the Grace of God. 

I take an awful lot of comfort from the 'mustard seed' parable, especially since I don't know how long I've got.  It just takes a little bit to make a great big bit.  We also have His promise that those to whom he has given WILL BE given more.

I also want to urge anybody interested in this thread to view or read the material from the last Conference in Mobile.

Keep the faith.       

cjwood:
i haven't been physically in prison, or ship-wrecked in the ocean or on a beach, BUT, i have been in emotional prison and mental prisons, as well as spiritual prison for sure.  and, after learning the many truths from this website, forum, and ray himself, i have felt ship-wrecked when my religious christianity house fell on the sand.  and sometimes i feel deserted and alone, with these awesome Truths of the Good News within me, seeing how i can't share them with any family members or friends.

inordinate blows.  i have had many of those.  like slaps up the back of the head, spiritually. 

sufferings, tribulations, trials, hardships, etc. come in all varieties.  but one thing i know for sure.  if God in us is causing us to desire to be more like Christ, and we are continually working towards that end, then we will go through the ringer, in one way or another, or multiple ways.  and once you get up from one situation, you get knocked down by another.  but, He is always with us.  always. 

claudia

DougE6:
Hi Stacey
I think this is a good topic.  I do not believe anyone is going to waltz into the Kingdom of God without undergoing suffering.  Did not the Captain of our Salvation learn obedience through suffering?  If Jesus went through it, and took up His cross, the very Son of God, how can we expect not to have to take up our cross and follow in his footsteps? But suffering is supposed to bring us joy! It may seem painful for a moment, like the pains of childbirth, but joy comes in the morning!
As I look back on 40 years of Christian walk, I would not want to repeat all that I have had to go through. Once is enough, and I do not know what awaits me. But, so far, I believe it has deepened me and chastened me, and I feel like some wood hay and stubble has been burned.  I and probably many here, have faced very desperate times or situations, some which persisted for some time. Some trials and tests as I look back, were directed to the very center of my being, challenging the deepest part of me, to submit to the will of God over my greatest human desires.  I can testify to the fact that God truly wants to burn out of us our carnality, our sinful tendencies, our self reliance, and teach us to really know what it is to obey Jesus and love righteousness and hate wickedness.  Crucifixion is painful. I do not think Paul used the words "crucify yourselves" flippantly. If we are to escape the second death, if we are be part of the judgements of God, there is a great work to be done in us. And if you think this fiery trial that you experience on earth is tough, I have a feeling the Lake of fire is hotter, and I think the goal of our faith, the salvation of our souls, to be with Christ, is so much higher that these small and momentary sufferings are like nothing in comparison.
Grace I like what you wrote about trials. We are to become overcomers. If there is nothing to overcome, how can we become an overcomer?  Of course there is much to overcome. You spoke of some of these things.  We all, alike, need to crucify the flesh with its carnal desires.  We need to press on to the mark of the high calling  in Jesus Christ. There is no greater calling, no higher honor, than to be in the First resurrection. To gain Christ.  To be His workmanship.  I every day, think on and hope on, being with Christ.
Doug

Stacey:
I have not attempted to turn Paul's experiences into anything. Paul's physical life experiences he endured for his faith in Jesus were his only. To each his own but, they were PHYSICAL EXPERIENCES and I am confident that if we were able to ask Paul why such things happened to him his reply would be something along the lines of all these trials were for his faith but in much greater detail and he does that in all of his letters.

First the natural/physical and then the spiritual. That's the way I see it. That's the way God created us. Without there ever being a physical, there would never be a spiritual anything for us. It is our experiences in life that bring us to a point to where we desire a higher meaning and understanding of everything which includes for some of us, a closer relationship and walk with Jesus. Don't you think that through each trial that Paul endured, the physical trails, that each of them made him stronger and better fit for going through the next one? I do.

There are many things mentioned here but I'll use just one for a small example. Ship wrecked is one that I can relate to only because my lively hood is dependent on a good working ship. Thank God I have never been through such a thing but surely experiencing something as terrible as a ship wreck would be a trying time for anyone but in this case it was Paul. That could have been a very trying and weak time for Paul both physically and in his faith. Paul being made or brought to a weak point and God being strong as always, bringing Paul through it all only to continue on to more tough trying, faith growing life experiences. I think that such a real life experience caused Paul to draw even closer and more dependent on Jesus. I'd say Paul's trials, his physical trials, caused him to grow in the faith of Jesus Christ and more able, stronger and fit for continuing the race.

Isn't that the point that Ray is making when he says that God intends "the same", notice he didn't say exactly the same but "the same" for each of us? Meaning that there will be for each believer tough, real life physical experiences because of our faith that we will have to endure in our walk. I think so. Not as a 1.2.3. A.B.C outline but as a reference to what Paul endured, we will also have to endure physical trials and persecutions in our journey of faith in Jesus Christ.

Pulling an item out of Ray's list of things mentioned above or looking at them as a  check list of what applies to any of us or not, could be viewed as turning the list into religious observances. That is not what was intended by my post at all (I have a tendency to be a wee bit vague and unable to put into words what I really intended, imperfections shinning through I know) but, no I have not suffered inordinate blows. Maybe it's because I have not been faithful over the little things as Dave mentioned but I think I have. That may be my stumbling block but only God knows and hopefully He will fix me shortly. Thank the Lord that I'm not fully baked yet. On the other hand I know in order to ever be fully cooked we have to first be caught, then prepared for and finally placed in the pan for cooking. The Lord being the Chef here, certainly He will never under or over cook us and being our Master Chef,  it is safe to assume that there will be many different varieties and flavors at the Lords supper. It takes all kinds to make the world go round right?

Every trial in the list mentioned above were all physical experiences that Paul went through. Sure we may in some way relate to some of these, spiritually speaking, as has already been mentioned but lets have a little reality check. We will have to endure physical trials in this life time for our faith.

I would like to think that we could all agree to what Ray said here to the extent that God will put each of us through some hardships, physically speaking, because of our faith that will in some shape, form or fashion, help to stretch our spiritual  understanding and just maybe grow a piece of fruit or two in our lives. I believe that when and if these kinds or types of trials take place in our lives there should be no doubt in our mind what, when, where and why they are happening. If Paul is our example (there are many more) then it is evident that studying the scriptures and wrestling in our understanding of them is not all that will be required of us in this life time.

Doesn't Ray make it clear here in this section of Part 3 that at least to some degree and level we will all have a Paul kind of conversion, trials, tribulations, and persecutions? I think he does. Are any of us spiritual giants? I certainly am not. If Christ were to return today, are any of us ready to rule and reign with Him?

Thanks to everyone that shared some of your personal experiences.

Dave in Tenn:
Stacey, I may be misunderstanding the 'first physical, then Spiritual' principle, but here's my take.  Paul went through these things physically and recorded them in a letter (which became scripture) for OUR spiritual admonition.  Same as any of the OT figures.  You said that you had not gone through any of these things (at least not to the degree that meant much to you).  I'm just trying to point out that you HAVE....if you believe.  That's what I meant by faithful in the little things.  

I've seen people pass through the forum 'believing' that those who will live godly will suffer persecution.  Then they turn that around and convince themselves that the aim is to suffer persecution to prove (to whom, I don't know...God?  Themselves?) that they are living godly.  Any jackass behaving badly can suffer "persecution" if that's what he wants.  Doesn't mean he's living Godly.  If that's not what you are thinking, then never mind.

Don't discount what you have already been through.  It's not 'nothing' that you have had a 180 degree change in your understanding of the fate of the world.  FEW are Chosen for this, boss.  Identify Spiritually with the Physical example Paul gave (and what he had to say about it), the same way that you identify Spiritually with Christ's crucifixion.  And move into OTHER areas of obedience that put you at more risk, without causing your own 'shipwreck'.  That's bad for your insurance rates.  ;)

Do good.


      

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