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[nightmare sasuke]

I am not so sure that Jesus had a beginning anymore. <I>Logos</I> seems to carry the concept of wisdom. If Jesus was the Wisdom (Pro 8:22), how could the Father exist without Him? How could God exist without wisdom?

It is said the <I>Logos</I> was with God in the beginning, yet there is no mention of His creation before the beginning.

Also, nothing was made without Christ, so how could Christ himself be made?

Whether Jesus preexisted consciously or unconsciously, I do not know.

[Chris R]

Hi,

Maybe this will help

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  [john 1:1]

 Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 

Since Christ is the word, he must have had a beginning, But the Father had no beginning, he always was.

There is no other way in which man can "see" the Father except through Jesus Christ.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Chris R

[hillsbororiver]

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!

Jesus Christ said,

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!

And again:

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."

Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.

And again:

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).

Where do we read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?

There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

And remember these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?

There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.



http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

[buddyjc]

Jesus Christ is the name of a MAN who was empowered by the spirit of God.  We are all empowered by the spirit of God, and we all came out from God.  Christ was foreordained since before the world, and so were we.  The 'man' Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and so are we.

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Everyone on the planet has the spirit of God, but that spirit does not work in all men the same way. 

Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Notice that in Colossians 1:16 that there is no mention of the 'sea.'  Christ is the 'firstborn' of the creatures in the heavens, and in the earth. 

Joh 16:27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Joh 16:28  I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Remembering that Christ spoke in parables, He is telling us what we must go through to go to the Father.  We must endure everything that Christ endured in order to 'go to the Father.'  We must suffer and die; be buried; and resurrected. 

We all seem to intertwine a carnal view of God, as if Christ 'came out of something' that can be seen or touched.  God is spirit and he is everywhere, and in all living things.  Christ was not 'omnipresent,' or 'omniscient,' and He was not 'omnipotent.'  He was just as reliant on the Father for revelation as we are.  When asked when He would return Jesus said that only the Father knew the time of His second coming.  The reason Jesus did not know the time, is because God had not revealed this to Him. 

We may not fully understand all of this until we ourselves are resurrected with spiritual bodies.  Anyway, this is how I see it, and there is always that chance that I am wrong.  I am just a man, and subject to the flesh as anyone else. 

Brian

[Lightseeker]

nightmare,

I am not so sure that Jesus  had a beginning anymore. <I>Logos</I> seems to carry the concept of wisdom. If Jesus was the Wisdom (Pro 8:22), how could the Father exist without Him? How could God exist without wisdom?

Jesus (the son of man after the flesh) had a beginning, it was two thousand years ago. Christ  (the son of God after the spirit) had no beginning but came from God the Father.  Jesus the Christ had a beginning as 'the messiah'.  But Christ as 'the annointing' wisdom of God had no beginning.  Hope that makes sense. 

I once looked up every time the bible said 'Jesus Christ' and every time it said 'Christ Jesus' just to seek a deeper revelation as to what the difference was in the context of scripture. 

As far as Him being "the wisdom of God", that merely means He manifested the 'Godly attribute of wisdom'.  An attribute is not the sum total of something.  For example it is true that "God is love"  but it is not true that 'love is God' because love is 'an attribute of God', and God is greater than the sum of all His attributes.  I didn't understand your Prov 8:22 verse though, was it a misquote? 

Buddyjc,

Jesus Christ is the name of a MAN

I guess you can see from what I posted above that I think there is more here to be searched out.  Jesus Christ isn't the name of a man IMO.  In the KJV he is:

Jesus is the Christ 3x
Jesus the Christ 1x,
Jesus Christ 187x
Christ Jesus 58x
the Christ 19x

Why the inconsistancy of Jesus Christ vs Christ Jesus (or is it inconsistant)?  Why would the bible use his 'last name first' and 'first name last'...if it truly was a 'last/first name'?

The 'man' Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and so are we.

"The man Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and the Son of Man...and are we?  Aren't we sons of man after the flesh...and 'children' of God after the spirit, unless we're led of the Sspirit...then we are 'Son's of God'.    Would you agree?

[nightmare sasuke]

Hi,

Maybe this will help

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  [john 1:1]

 Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 

Since Christ is the word, he must have had a beginning, But the Father had no beginning, he always was.

There is no other way in which man can "see" the Father except through Jesus Christ.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Chris R

If the Logos WAS in the beginning with God, then how did he have a beginning? Without him, after all, NOTHING came into existence, not even himself.

QUOTE - "Since Christ is the word, he must have had a beginning, But the Father had no beginning, he always was."

Since Christ is the Logos, it wouldn't make any sense he had a beginning. How can the Father exist without Wisdom? It was by Christ he created; how could he create Christ without Christ himself?

QUOTE - "There is no other way in which man can "see" the Father except through Jesus Christ."

I know.

[nightmare sasuke]

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16).

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand" (Deu 32:39, KJV).

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deu 6:4, KJV).

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Exo 3:14, KJV).

Jesus is Yahweh and Yahweh is God. Besides Yahweh, there is no other.

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

Exactly. ALL. Now did Jesus come into existence without himself?

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Out from the Father and into the world.

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

Yes.

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

Where are you getting "all else" from? It says ALL, not all else.

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

All else? It says ALL.

I'm not saying there is a Trinity, nor am I saying Jesus is not lesser than the Father, having the throne for the mean time. What I am saying, however, is God could not have existed without the Wisdom, because Wisdom is how God operates.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me" (Isa 43:10, KJV).

[nightmare sasuke]

Jesus Christ is the name of a MAN who was empowered by the spirit of God.  We are all empowered by the spirit of God, and we all came out from God.  Christ was foreordained since before the world, and so were we.  The 'man' Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and so are we.

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Everyone on the planet has the spirit of God, but that spirit does not work in all men the same way. 

Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Notice that in Colossians 1:16 that there is no mention of the 'sea.'  Christ is the 'firstborn' of the creatures in the heavens, and in the earth. 

Joh 16:27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Joh 16:28  I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Remembering that Christ spoke in parables, He is telling us what we must go through to go to the Father.  We must endure everything that Christ endured in order to 'go to the Father.'  We must suffer and die; be buried; and resurrected. 

We all seem to intertwine a carnal view of God, as if Christ 'came out of something' that can be seen or touched.  God is spirit and he is everywhere, and in all living things.  Christ was not 'omnipresent,' or 'omniscient,' and He was not 'omnipotent.'  He was just as reliant on the Father for revelation as we are.  When asked when He would return Jesus said that only the Father knew the time of His second coming.  The reason Jesus did not know the time, is because God had not revealed this to Him. 

We may not fully understand all of this until we ourselves are resurrected with spiritual bodies.  Anyway, this is how I see it, and there is always that chance that I am wrong.  I am just a man, and subject to the flesh as anyone else. 

Brian

Jesus Christ is the name of a MAN who was empowered by the spirit of God.  We are all empowered by the spirit of God, and we all came out from God.  Christ was foreordained since before the world, and so were we.  The 'man' Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and so are we.

Jesus was the name of a man who was the Logos made flesh, annointed with the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

We are led by the Spirit of God, but are not the very Wisdom of God.

[nightmare sasuke]

Jesus (the son of man after the flesh) had a beginning, it was two thousand years ago. Christ  (the son of God after the spirit) had no beginning but came from God the Father.  Jesus the Christ had a beginning as 'the messiah'.  But Christ as 'the annointing' wisdom of God had no beginning.  Hope that makes sense. 

Yes. I agree.

[Lightseeker]

nightmare sasuke

Let me see if I can hit this from another angle.

Since Christ is the word, he must have had a beginning,

Rethink this with me.  The word (which had no beginning) became Christ/the messiah/the man which was born (became flesh) two thousand years ago.  The Greek word Christos/Christ is more than just the NT man, Jesus.  You must expand your understanding of the definition of Christ from just 'the man' to anyone annointed.  It has a dual definition which is determined by the context of scripture. 

1PE 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,

Jesus (the man) wasn't in these OT saints...Christ (the spirit) was.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word (The Spirit), and the Word (The Spirit) was with God, and the Word (The Spirit) was God.

Scripture says God is a Spirit and yet we know scripture mentions seven spirits 'of' God.  The spirit of Christ is 'a spirit' of/from God. But this 'godly Christ spirit' is merely an 'attribute spirit'...and God is still greater than the sum of all 'His spirits'.  And we also know Jesus had flesh and blood until His crucifixion...but afterward He was not only a "ghost" but also "flesh and bone" and yet "God is a Spirit". 

JOH 1:14  And the Word (The Spirit) was made flesh (Jesus), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If the Logos WAS in the beginning with God, then how did he have a beginning? Without him, after all, NOTHING came into existence, not even himself.

The logos wasn't 'the he'...the he was 'the logos manifested' at the birth of the man Jesus who had 'the annointing of Christ spirit' in Him.  You seem to be saying the Logos (the spirit) had a beginning because Jesus had a beginning.  But the scripture is saying the word (spirit) became flesh.  The question is when did the spirit become flesh?  Isn't the answer...when Jesus was born?

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deu 6:4, KJV).

This says that "GOD IS ONE" not "the Lord is one".  I can have many Lords in my life but eventually Jesus will be the only 'one Lord' I'm totally submitted to because He is 'of God' and all my other Lords aren't.

Jesus is Yahweh and Yahweh is God. Besides Yahweh, there is no other.

I'm on a limb here because I don't think Jesus is the OT Yahweh.  He isn't born yet.  But the Christ spirit was in the OT and also in people.  But when scripture says "The LORD said unto my Lord"....well how many Lord Gods are there?


Hope this helps.
Gotta go the lord wants me to help do something for her.   

[nightmare sasuke]

nightmare sasuke

Let me see if I can hit this from another angle.

Since Christ is the word, he must have had a beginning,

Rethink this with me.  The word (which had no beginning) became Christ/the messiah/the man which was born (became flesh) two thousand years ago.  The Greek word Christos/Christ is more than just the NT man, Jesus.  You must expand your understanding of the definition of Christ from just 'the man' to anyone annointed.  It has a dual definition which is determined by the context of scripture. 

1PE 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,

Jesus (the man) wasn't in these OT saints...Christ (the spirit) was.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word (The Spirit), and the Word (The Spirit) was with God, and the Word (The Spirit) was God.

Scripture says God is a Spirit and yet we know scripture mentions seven spirits 'of' God.  The spirit of Christ is 'a spirit' of/from God. But this 'godly Christ spirit' is merely an 'attribute spirit'...and God is still greater than the sum of all 'His spirits'.  And we also know Jesus had flesh and blood until His crucifixion...but afterward He was not only a "ghost" but also "flesh and bone" and yet "God is a Spirit". 

JOH 1:14  And the Word (The Spirit) was made flesh (Jesus), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If the Logos WAS in the beginning with God, then how did he have a beginning? Without him, after all, NOTHING came into existence, not even himself.

The logos wasn't 'the he'...the he was 'the logos manifested' at the birth of the man Jesus who had 'the annointing of Christ spirit' in Him.  You seem to be saying the Logos (the spirit) had a beginning because Jesus had a beginning.  But the scripture is saying the word (spirit) became flesh.  The question is when did the spirit become flesh?  Isn't the answer...when Jesus was born?

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deu 6:4, KJV).

This says that "GOD IS ONE" not "the Lord is one".  I can have many Lords in my life but eventually Jesus will be the only 'one Lord' I'm totally submitted to because He is 'of God' and all my other Lords aren't.

Jesus is Yahweh and Yahweh is God. Besides Yahweh, there is no other.

I'm on a limb here because I don't think Jesus is the OT Yahweh.  He isn't born yet.  But the Christ spirit was in the OT and also in people.  But when scripture says "The LORD said unto my Lord"....well how many Lord Gods are there?


Hope this helps.
Gotta go the lord wants me to help do something for her.   

Jesus (the logos) IS Yahweh. Jesus declares himself egw eimi.

Do you have AIM?

[Lightseeker]

Nightmare,

Jesus (the logos) IS Yahweh. Jesus declares himself egw eimi.

I don't think so.  Don't even know what it is actually.   

Clue me in OK?

[nightmare sasuke]

Nightmare,

Jesus (the logos) IS Yahweh. Jesus declares himself egw eimi.

I don't think so.  Don't even know what it is actually.   

Clue me in OK?

Egw eimi is translated "I AM." It's used in the LXX to render the Hebrew words translated "I AM" when Yahweh declares his name to Moses.

Yahweh said: "καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν·" (Exo 3:14, LXX).

Translated: "And he said, the God, toward Moses, I AM the existing" (Me).

The Son of Man said: "ειπεν αυτοις ο ιησους αμην αμην λεγω υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι" (Joh 8:58, Textus Receptus).

Translated: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" (Joh 8:58, KJV).

[hillsbororiver]

I am not so sure that Jesus had a beginning anymore. <I>Logos</I> seems to carry the concept of wisdom. If Jesus was the Wisdom (Pro 8:22), how could the Father exist without Him? How could God exist without wisdom?

It is said the <I>Logos</I> was with God in the beginning, yet there is no mention of His creation before the beginning.

Also, nothing was made without Christ, so how could Christ himself be made?

Whether Jesus preexisted consciously or unconsciously, I do not know.

Pro 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (The Lord is Jesus)

This is Solomon speaking of himself here, where do you get this is speaking of the Lord? It is similiar to Jeremiah in this verse,

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I am seeing alot of unscriptural supposition in this thread.

Joe

[Lightseeker]

 
Nightmare,

I agree with Joe...and I may even be part of his "unscriptural supposition" comment (I don't know ).  But getting back to your previous post.  I deleted too much of your quote after copying it.  When I said I was clueless,I also needed to know just exactly what AIM is?

And as far as your last post.  The word 'name' doesn't necessarily mean your 'moniker'.  It very often pertains to 'the nature and authority' of a person/thing/god.  I believe that is what's being referred to in the reference source you quoted.  An example of what I mean is this:

If someone knocks at your door and says, "Open up in the name of the law!" you certainly wouldn't expect to look through the peephole and see someone with a gun and a name tag that says 'LAW' on it would you? 

The same situation applys in your Exo 3:14 quote.  It is not talking about Pharoah shaking in his boots because Moses knew the 'moniker' of God.  It is talkng about Moses saying to Pharoah, "You may have man's authority but I have the 'authority' of God."  In Exo 3:14 Moses was asking what the source of his authority was when he went to talk to pharoah, the ruler of earth.   Jesus was also walking/claiming this same authority thousands of years after God spoke to Moses.

The context of John 8, which your "I am" verse comes from, is centering around them challenging the authority whereby Jesus was 'teaching' and 'doing miraculous works'.  They basically said he had the devil's authority.  I believe He was merely stating that His authority went back to the same I am authority Moses walked in.  But in truth the spirit of Christ which was in Jesus the Christ was there with Moses.  Like the verse I quoted in Peter concerning the prophets who had the spirit of christ in them.

Does this make sense?  What kind of name is 'I am'.  When you read it in scripture  thinking it's a 'moniker'  it just sounds wrong feels wrong and is weird until you have the understanding of 'authority'.  It works for me anyway.
 

 

 
 

[nightmare sasuke]

I am not so sure that Jesus had a beginning anymore. <I>Logos</I> seems to carry the concept of wisdom. If Jesus was the Wisdom (Pro 8:22), how could the Father exist without Him? How could God exist without wisdom?

It is said the <I>Logos</I> was with God in the beginning, yet there is no mention of His creation before the beginning.

Also, nothing was made without Christ, so how could Christ himself be made?

Whether Jesus preexisted consciously or unconsciously, I do not know.

Pro 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (The Lord is Jesus)

This is Solomon speaking of himself here, where do you get this is speaking of the Lord? It is similiar to Jeremiah in this verse,

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I am seeing alot of unscriptural supposition in this thread.

Joe

That proverb is speaking of Wisdom. Logos seems to be a concept of wisdom.