> Off Topic Discussions
gnosticism
Aatos:
I'll simply post the "#1 Gnostic quote" according to a few sites I've been to...
From "The Gospel of Thomas":
"Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too
may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female
who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
The root problem I have with gnosticism is that it's pretentious, and bloated. If religions are like groups of school, or college students, then Gnosticism are the students that look way too deeply into things, and are very secretive about their findings. Of course they'll say that the above quote doesn't actually mean what it says, and for all we know the quote might as well mean that one should eat dessert for dinner.
Revilonivek:
--- Quote from: Aatos on April 02, 2011, 02:04:24 PM ---I'll simply post the "#1 Gnostic quote" according to a few sites I've been to...
From "The Gospel of Thomas":
"Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too
may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female
who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
The root problem I have with gnosticism is that it's pretentious, and bloated. If religions are like groups of school, or college students, then Gnosticism are the students that look way too deeply into things, and are very secretive about their findings. Of course they'll say that the above quote doesn't actually mean what it says, and for all we know the quote might as well mean that one should eat dessert for dinner.
--- End quote ---
In this saying, Jesus shows that women are equal to men by accepting them as disciples and teaching them about God. He is simply telling his male
disciples, that the women are equal.
This is the real reason it wasn't included in the KJV. It taught equality of men and women. went against their doctrine.
In jesus' time, women aren't allowed to speak and sit way in the back in the synagogues- jews back then throughout the bible treat their animals better than their women. Jesus on the other hand, always treated women as his equal. Just compare what Jesus did for the women, he healed a woman while on her menses, he talked to a foreign woman, etc and all of them were forbidden by law for the jews.
Jesus does not treat women as inferior creatures or as property, he treats them like people. Jesus is a Jew who claims to be placed on earth, as the Son of God, to offer all people redemption. His message is a revolutionary one because it radically changes the message traditionally attributed to God by the Jewish people. Previously, the almighty God favoured Jewish men as his chosen people. Jesus was making salvation, and God, available to all people, whether man or woman, Jew or gentile. Jesus overthrew hundreds of years of Jewish law and custom by consistently treating men and women equally. He not only treated women with respect but he also represented women as righteous people in his stories. He uses this authority to spread the good news to men and women. The four gospels of Jesus, purportedly written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are overflowing with examples of Christ’s fair treatment of women.
Did you know that the entire KJV was ordained by the catholic church, by pope Damascus. Catholic church has to recognize and determine the canon of the NEw and old Testament in the year 382 at the council of Rome under Pope Damascus I You have to accept their say so on the authenticity of the entire bible. They pick and choose what they want, what they feel is more fitting for their doctrine, leaving the others out. Even the scripture on the Trinty was inserted by Pope Damacnus.
some of the gospels were composed decades after Jesus resecurrted to Heaven, and the gospels put together were dated to be around 4th century. we don't even have the originals. And this putting together of the bible is after church heresy hunters and book burners destroyed everything they saw as a threat. The only other sources outside of fragments are the Dead Sea Scrolls that do nothing for New Testament Christianity, and the Nag Hammadi Gospels (Gnostic?) which date about the same time and contradict the official version of Christianity. We have no originals to go by and have to take their "say-so" for it. Some of the gospels were written by Greeks, who haven't met Jesus.
in around 1200 Ad, Gnostics were the larger population in Europe- and was slaughtered on the command by Pope Innocent III largely because of their gnostic heresy. during that time, catholics/christians felt threatened by gnostics and jews bec of their "heresay"
In my opinion, christianity is an combination of gnostics and judaism.
Gnosticism differs from "official" Christianity in two important respects: 1) Gnostics believed the material world was created as evil and corrupted, and 2) Jesus was a spirit, not actual flesh. Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit in both Gnosticism and Christianity, but in Gnosticism the Holy Spirit was the "feminine" or female aspect of God. Thus the Holy Spirit was the true "mother" of Jesus.
Where Christianity and Gnosticism differ from Judaism is who or what created the Universe. Both reject the idea that God (the Jewish one) created the universe and claim other beings did it. Gnostics differed claiming Jesus was a spirit.
so its not a bad idea to explore other gnostics gospels and find out why it wasn't included in the kjv. It wasnt included largely because it wasn't inspired by the "catholic church" back then.
mharrell08:
Revilonivek/Denise,
I'm starting to come under the impression that you've started this thread just to teach the merits of Gnosticism. But that's a problem that goes beyond the rules of the forum, and I'll try to explain:
The one thing that has drawn Ray and the members of this forum together is seeking out the Truth. No matter how many members I have met or spoken with online, that is always the one constant. We didn't come together because of age, race, sex, church affiliation/denomination, or even what part of the world we live in. It has, and hopefully will continue to be, a constant desire of the truth regarding The Father, His Son Jesus, and what they have in store for the whole human race.
We're not here to determine what we should keep (if any) from Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism, or any other religious belief. We're actually trying to turn away from all these false doctrines, as none have the Truth. If they did, we would not be called to come out of them.
If you want to continue with a defense of any of these doctrines, the Internet is littered with websites that will let you do so to your heart's content. But Bible Truths is not one of them. Hope you understand
Marques
Kat:
Hi Denise,
Ray had a whole conference that he dedicated to 'How We Got The Bible.' He spent a whole year researching, countless hours, to put that material together. So don't think we have no idea how we got the Bible. What we have in a Bible, translation error and all, is everything God needs to teach us, as He will provide a teacher to bridge the gap there might be.
This is from the transcript of 'How We Got The Bible,' it should give you some idea of how the New Testament was canonized.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html ------
Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the Law among My disciples.
But that’s a prophecy for when Messiah comes. So there is a statement that He will bind up the testimony of God, and seal the Law among My disciples. So just keep that in mind as a starting point in the Old Testament, for how God is going to bring about this Scripture of the New Testament.
So we have got 22 books with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet in the Old TestamentNow that God has a new revelation, He is going to use a new language. At least as far as we know the language was Greek But some insist Matthew was written in Hebrew, we don’t know that for a fact. I don’t think we can prove that.
But just like Ezra and Nehemiah closed out the Old Testament canon, we are going to see that Peter and John close out the New Testament.
Now the Catholic church knew that the canon was complete long before they came on the scene with their Ecumenical Councils. II Peter makes it clear that Peter knew what was Scripture, and John finalized everything. Just as Ezra penned the last book (II Chronicles) of the Old Testament, John penned the Last book of the New Testament (Revelation).
Many things were known to be true and of God, long before they were officially and publicly canonized or written down in books by God’s high servants.
v
v
Because there was apostasy coming in the church. There is crime and corruption entering in; false prophets, antichrists, strong delusions. It says men shall be lovers of themselves, disobedient, proud, vain, booster, lovers of pleasure (II Tim. 3) and all of these things are coming into the church. So they need to be sure that everybody knows what is the Truth. Now they are going to set aside the books for the final canonization, as what are the Scriptures.
Now look a little bit at what we can gleam, there are all kinds of outside information, tradition and some history. There are traditions of the Jews that I could bring in here, but I wanted to stick pretty much just to the Scriptures. So we can see from the Scripture how and why God brought everything together.
v
v
The Catholic Church did not canonize the Scriptures, nor did the Protestant Church canonize the Scriptures. They were already canonized by God's servants hundreds of years earlier!
v
v
II Peter 3:16 as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
What did Peter know about “all his (Paul’s) epistles”? Because Peter had them. He had them all. How did he get them?
II Tim. 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with you; for he is useful to me for ministering.
v. 12 But Tychicus I sent to Ephesus.
v. 13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou come, and the books, ESPECIALLY THE PARCHMENTS.
These are Paul’s letters. These are not the books, but the vellums, these are his epistles. Why would he want all his epistles? Didn’t he know what he said? Well he knows his time is near the end and Paul knows what he has written is Scripture. We read many Scripture showing that he knew that he was writing ‘Bible verses’ if you will.
Now Paul wants Mark to come and bring those letters, because he’s going to go through them. In fact he’s going to edit some of them.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus,
It doesn’t just say to the saints of God, but “that are in Ephesus,” That was editorialized, because his first letters apparently do not contain that. But then he edited it, so that they would know where this letter went.
Of course Ephesus was really the head quarters for the Asian church.
Remember there are 7 churches on a mail route; Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. But the head church was always in Ephesus.
So he says, bring the parchments ‘especially’ I want those, these were Paul’s epistles. Now Mark returned to Peter in Babylon. Remember Peter wrote from Babylon.
II Peter 5:13 The church is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son.
So Paul said sent Mark and be sure to bring the vellums and he must have brought them. Paul then edits them and says these are the ones. He started with the most important one of all for basic information, the book of Romans. It sets the doctrinal standards, but it’s mostly milk as far as doctrine goes. This leads up to his last epistles written from prison, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians. These are the most spiritually strong Scripture in the whole bible.
Now Mark is back in Babylon with Peter and then when we go to II Peter, guess what? Peter has all of Paul’s epistles. There was a reason why Mark got them and took them to Paul. Then Paul sent them with Mark and he gave them to Peter. Now Peter has got them all, at least all the ones that Paul wanted to be sent to him. So Peter is definitely in charge of the Scriptures and here he talks about his epistles and the OTHER Scriptures. So he knows what the other Scriptures are.
So obviously the Apostles had all the Scriptures.
---------------------------------------------------------
This is only a small part of what Ray explains at that conference about how they canonized the NT. At the very least you should consider what Ray teaches before advocating another source.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Revilonivek:
--- Quote from: Kat on April 05, 2011, 08:56:41 PM ---
Hi Denise,
Ray had a whole conference that he dedicated to 'How We Got The Bible.' He spent a whole year researching, countless hours, to put that material together. So don't think we have no idea how we got the Bible. What we have in a Bible, translation error and all, is everything God needs to teach us, as He will provide a teacher to bridge the gap there might be.
This is from the transcript of 'How We Got The Bible,' it should give you some idea of how the New Testament was canonized.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html ------
Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the Law among My disciples.
But that’s a prophecy for when Messiah comes. So there is a statement that He will bind up the testimony of God, and seal the Law among My disciples. So just keep that in mind as a starting point in the Old Testament, for how God is going to bring about this Scripture of the New Testament.
So we have got 22 books with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet in the Old TestamentNow that God has a new revelation, He is going to use a new language. At least as far as we know the language was Greek But some insist Matthew was written in Hebrew, we don’t know that for a fact. I don’t think we can prove that.
But just like Ezra and Nehemiah closed out the Old Testament canon, we are going to see that Peter and John close out the New Testament.
Now the Catholic church knew that the canon was complete long before they came on the scene with their Ecumenical Councils. II Peter makes it clear that Peter knew what was Scripture, and John finalized everything. Just as Ezra penned the last book (II Chronicles) of the Old Testament, John penned the Last book of the New Testament (Revelation).
Many things were known to be true and of God, long before they were officially and publicly canonized or written down in books by God’s high servants.
v
v
Because there was apostasy coming in the church. There is crime and corruption entering in; false prophets, antichrists, strong delusions. It says men shall be lovers of themselves, disobedient, proud, vain, booster, lovers of pleasure (II Tim. 3) and all of these things are coming into the church. So they need to be sure that everybody knows what is the Truth. Now they are going to set aside the books for the final canonization, as what are the Scriptures.
Now look a little bit at what we can gleam, there are all kinds of outside information, tradition and some history. There are traditions of the Jews that I could bring in here, but I wanted to stick pretty much just to the Scriptures. So we can see from the Scripture how and why God brought everything together.
v
v
The Catholic Church did not canonize the Scriptures, nor did the Protestant Church canonize the Scriptures. They were already canonized by God's servants hundreds of years earlier!
v
v
II Tim. 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with you; for he is useful to me for ministering.
v. 12 But Tychicus I sent to Ephesus.
v. 13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou come, and the books, ESPECIALLY THE PARCHMENTS.
These are Paul’s letters. These are not the books, but the vellums, these are his epistles. Why would he want all his epistles? Didn’t he know what he said? Well he knows his time is near the end and Paul knows what he has written is Scripture. We read many Scripture showing that he knew that he was writing ‘Bible verses’ if you will.
Now Paul wants Mark to come and bring those letters, because he’s going to go through them. In fact he’s going to edit some of them.
v
v
II Peter 3:16 as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
What did Peter know about “all his (Paul’s) epistles”? Because Peter had them. He had them all. How did he get them?
II Tim. 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with you; for he is useful to me for ministering.
v. 12 But Tychicus I sent to Ephesus.
v. 13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou come, and the books, ESPECIALLY THE PARCHMENTS.
These are Paul’s letters. These are not the books, but the vellums, these are his epistles. Why would he want all his epistles? Didn’t he know what he said? Well he knows his time is near the end and Paul knows what he has written is Scripture. We read many Scripture showing that he knew that he was writing ‘Bible verses’ if you will.
Now Paul wants Mark to come and bring those letters, because he’s going to go through them. In fact he’s going to edit some of them.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus,
It doesn’t just say to the saints of God, but “that are in Ephesus,” That was editorialized, because his first letters apparently do not contain that. But then he edited it, so that they would know where this letter went.
Of course Ephesus was really the head quarters for the Asian church.
Remember there are 7 churches on a mail route; Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. But the head church was always in Ephesus.
So he says, bring the parchments ‘especially’ I want those, these were Paul’s epistles. Now Mark returned to Peter in Babylon. Remember Peter wrote from Babylon.
II Peter 5:13 The church is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son.
So Paul said sent Mark and be sure to bring the vellums and he must have brought them. Paul then edits them and says these are the ones. He started with the most important one of all for basic information, the book of Romans. It sets the doctrinal standards, but it’s mostly milk as far as doctrine goes. This leads up to his last epistles written from prison, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians. These are the most spiritually strong Scripture in the whole bible.
Now Mark is back in Babylon with Peter and then when we go to II Peter, guess what? Peter has all of Paul’s epistles. There was a reason why Mark got them and took them to Paul. Then Paul sent them with Mark and he gave them to Peter. Now Peter has got them all, at least all the ones that Paul wanted to be sent to him. So Peter is definitely in charge of the Scriptures and here he talks about his epistles and the OTHER Scriptures. So he knows what the other Scriptures are.
So obviously the Apostles had all the Scriptures.
---------------------------------------------------------
This is only a small part of what Ray explains at that conference about how they canonized the NT. At the very least you should consider what Ray teaches before advocating another source.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
The apostles did canolize the originals, and the Catholics has the originals, We don't have access to them. the Catholics were the ones who decided which ones of the books to be added, in the 4th century which later became the kjv. You can look it up.
I love studying history. I don't stand by any religion(belief) I never felt God would limit himself to just the kjv. He is everywhere. I learned that religions and their bibles restrict, keep people from truly knowing God. Jesus never identified with any religion but did identify with the least of the people, unclean in the eyes of jews, , outcasts(samartians(other religion in the eyes of jews, ), the poor, the weak, the sick, pretty much all people that a religion rejected. doctrines is what keeps us from knowing God and kept us apart from love.
I will abstain from discussing history regarding the bible on this forum. I thought it was fascinating and thought id share. Again, I apologize. My intention is pure and want to maintain peace. I love coming to this forum because I have learned so much.
Blessings,
Denise
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version