> General Discussions
He wants to what?!
Kat:
Hi Mark,
That is a good line up of Scriptures on how the chosen must endure "chastening," except for the Rom 1:18.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Not sure if you were just using this Scripture with "wrath" as a contrast? But just wanted to make it clear, the chosen are "not appointed to wrath."
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---Not sure if you were just using this Scripture with "wrath" as a contrast? But just wanted to make it clear, the chosen are "not appointed to wrath" at this time.
--- End quote ---
Hello Kat.
Yes,that verse was to be used for contrast for the unbeliever who may be reading the post. But we must all take heed that not any one of us know who are of the elect and that we should always be aware that God does the choosing and not any one of us has a say in the matter.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 9:24 Do you not see that in a running competition all take part, but only one gets the reward? So let your minds be fixed on the reward.
1Co 9:25 And every man who takes part in the sports has self-control in all things. Now they do it to get a crown which is of this world, but we for an eternal crown.
1Co 9:26 So then I am running, not uncertainly; so I am fighting, not as one who gives blows in the air:
1Co 9:27 But I give blows to my body, and keep it under control, for fear that, after having given the good news to others, I myself might not have God's approval.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Peace...Mark
GaryK:
--- Quote ---Those that shake their puny fist at God now, is only because of their ingorance about God's plan and what He can and will do.
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat and Mark,
Whelp Kat, you’re not the first one to tell me I’m shaking my puny fist (again) at god, and reminding me of
“ Who [is] this -- darkening counsel, By words without knowledge?"
But yes, I DO, do that.
And in a way I suppose one could look at my fist-shaking at god in the same way as when the Israelites reacted and felt when God took them from slavery to the wilderness, but toward the promising. They shook their fists too, and rebelled as well, because of a non-understanding and faith-loss. A loss in their comfort zone stirred them to a wild frenzy. Didn’t they raise their fists too?
But isn’t that what God does to us (all) when calling us out? Isn’t that the path? A rather lonely and disoriented walk ‘toward’ him, making us (forcing us) to leave our comfort zone for something better, even though we may not readily see (lose faith at times) in the end by way of the means, all while he’s grinding our idols to powder? I see a comfort zone as an idol. Isn’t that how we turn and look back? I guess he hasn’t gotten me to the point where I can yet turn and see from whence I came. And for all I know that may be in the next life.
At least one can take comfort in knowing they needn’t endure 400 years of my puny fist shaking.
And to both Kat and Mark,
I appreciate your words, they’re not wasted.
If one loses faith, all-told, I see it only as what he has pre-scribed from the beginning, since free-will is not an option. If it’s true for me, my ‘expectation’ will not be from ignorance, because, he’s showing me the difference NOW. But if I do lose faith, the shame of it will be the hand on the plough and looking back. A fitting torment, I suppose. Who am I that he should ‘change’ his plan?
I figure he’ll shut me up in due time, just as Dennis has pointed out.
But until he does, I’ll plead, beg and desire mercy and justice for those who have less whether out of ignorance or not. My heart goes out to those who walk with a limp, or disfigurement, or incapable of sight, or hearing, being born of such. My heart goes out to helpless animals tortured, or human beings left in abandonment and disregard for no reason other than, God himself, felt it fitting to create circumstances that prospered the development of someone so disturbed as to take pleasure in placing others in harm’s way for nothing other than temporary pleasure.
Sometimes their ‘recompense’ seems too far off for my taste. Perhaps God may need help in bringing justice a bit faster.
Nonetheless, I doubt seriously that I’m the only one who has shaken a puny fist at God. Others have too, just in silence, but, it’s all in the heart.
--- Quote ---This is all part of this time in the human experience, the first part of God's plan for us. Do you know what He has in store for these in the next age? Do you think that He can not, will not or won't right these wrongs? Pesonally I think things will be flipped around in the next age, "many who are first will be last, and the last first." Whatever God has planned it will be just and it will be precisely what is necessary to deal with every individual according to His great wisdom.
--- End quote ---
Do I think he can’t, or won’t? I haven’t gone so far wayward, yet, where I’ve forgotten of the promise that he will set things right. So, I believe he can, and will.
The ‘flipped around’ is interesting. Admittedly, I haven’t looked at it quite that way, or at least not in the sense of blessings, if that’s what you mean. I know there will be those who are greater in the kingdom, of course, but at the expense of others? If that’s true, then, how will that work with ‘no more tears’? >>>> more for some and less for others (since they’ve already experienced blessings in this life whether they actually knew it, had it or not)?
I appreciate you both.
gk
Kat:
Hi Mark,
Yes none of us has any part in the choosing and we can not work up a love for this truth for ourself, it all must be given us. But when we have our eyes opened, when we see the fruit of the Holy Spirit being developed in us, can we not know we are in the race? Paul did not beat around the bush when he was talking to believers about who they were and what they were chosen for.
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
v. 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
Hi gk,
I do understand about getting discouraged and looking around at the evil of this world is really disheartening. Before I knew this truth it was so disturbing seeing what seemed to be so much pointless tragedies and sufferings. But knowing the truth should help us look at things differently now. This is all temporary, but a moment in time.
James 4:14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
I see this age as a dark backdrop, a time in while this world is learning about evil through experience. What seems to be way too much wickedness and suffering, is actually all framed and limited by how God designed things. There are those that were created to be vessels of dishonor (2 Tim 2:20), they now do desire to do evil.
Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil,
And they make haste to shed innocent blood;
Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity;
Wasting and destruction are in their paths.
v. 8 The way of peace they have not known,
And there is no justice in their ways;
They have made themselves crooked paths;
Whoever takes that way shall not know peace.
There is a purpose for this, we must all experience evil and there needs to be those that bring that about. It's not exactly as it seems to be, where human beings seem to suffer without any limits at all. Pain actually is very much limited, as a person will pass out at some point of suffering, that is built in and automatic. If our bodies have to much abuse it will die and all suffering at that point does cease. So suffering can only reach a certain point and can not last beyond that.
I think that it is very hard to see beyond this suffering and think of it as having a useful purpose. But it does give us a backdrop from which we can contrast things with. It takes our having knowledge of evil to fully understand God's goodness. Here is a excerpt from article no. 6.
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html ------------------------
Everything in the universe is a contrast with or to something else in the universe. Nothing can be known about anything without contrasting it with other things. You cannot think a thought nor can you perform a deed without a working knowledge of these contrasting factors.
v
v
Things are heavy or light, sharp or dull, big or small, tall or short, strong or weak, hot or cold, left or right, north or south, in or out, new or old, beginning or end, fast or slow, fat or skinny, straight or crooked, up or down, high or low, moving or still, positive or negative, visible or invisible, etc. You get the idea. Now then, this same law of knowledge pertains to inanimate things and things of a spiritual nature as well. Again it is only by understanding one thing relative to another or one thing contrasted with another that enables us to intelligently communicate and live our lives. Let’s look at a few of these: happy or sad, giving or stingy, build or destroy, kind or cruel, energetic or lazy, haughty or humble, intelligent or stupid, wise or foolish, right or wrong, true or false, good or evil, righteous or wicked, love or hate, life or death, temporary or eternal.
Having a working knowledge of these relative and contrasting terms and concepts is absolutely essential in living our lives. We must all come to know and to experience both good and evil. The universal teaching that God "never intended" for man to eat of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is as false and unscriptural as anything could ever be. It was both essential and paramount that man should eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge of both good and evil is an attribute of God Himself. If we are to be the "sons of God," we too must partake of this quality of God’s nature. How could man ever be fully made into the very image of His Creator God if he did not possess even the basic fundamental attributes of his Creator and Father?
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Now of course we are sad to see the suffering of others and I think it is necessary to feel compassion and mercy for others.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as God's elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;
We are being made into His image and these are most definitely traits of our Father in heaven.
Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases, his mercies never come to an end;
But we must not take our sorrow for all this present suffering too far and look on our Father as wrong or mean or whatever, because we can't comprehend the fullness of what He is doing. We should always keep in mind that He is perfect in wisdom and everything that He does is right and good whether we understand it or not. I pray He will grant you this peace and ease your mind.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to the which also ye were called in one body; and be ye thankful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Marky Mark:
Hello Gary. I am hopeful in your condition that the Lord brings about the Spiritual guidance in which you speak of.My prayers are with you brother.
--- Quote ---Hi Mark,
Yes none of us has any part in the choosing and we can not work up a love for this truth for ourself, it all must be given us. But when we have our eyes opened, when we see the fruit of the Holy Spirit being developed in us, can we not know we are in the race? Paul did not beat around the bush when he was talking to believers about who they were and what they were chosen for.
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat.
There is more to being in the race,we must also win that race by being faithful to the end.If we do not live by every word of Christ within ourselves we will fail to finish the race and our reward will vanish.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Not an easy order to live by,but none the less, we must do all that Christ commands of us in order to be accounted worthy of His kingdom. I for one struggle daily for these words to ring true in my life and being a realist,I know that without Jesus in me, I will fail miserably.
Yes we can and do know that our Spiritual journey consists of a Spiritual race.We all must run this race like our lives depend on it,because it surely does. I certainly hope and pray that I can be accounted as one of the few chosen and faithful to the end, as Scripture points out,but that outcome only God knows. When I experience the trails and tribulations in my life living daily for Jesus and what that all involves,which is of course,dying daily to self[that old man],it most assuredly is a lot of work which needs to be accomplished within. But to be chosen and to receive Christ's words is not enough to be elected,as Judas found out.
Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
It takes Gods will to finish the race in all of us and there is nothing that I can do to change Gods will. All is of and for The Father whose plan and purpose is perfect in every way. Praise be to God.
Peace...Mark
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