How Can We Know?

[G. Driggs]

Excerpt from Mobile Conference 2009 (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.msg99633.html#msg99633):

What Paul has to say about QUALIFYING:

Paul said I bring anything that is sinful or wrong under "subjection" in my body, unless I speak to you on how to do all this stuff and "I myself should be a castaway."

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So yes, he was aware of that and he kept that prod on himself, but was he negative about it? Did he said, 'Boy, I hope I make it. But He put me through some stuff. I don't know if I'll make it to the end. I don't know if I can endure all this stuff God put me through. I got this demon smacking me up side the head (spiritually speaking), every day of my life. I'm in hunger and thirst, nakedness and problems, troubles, threats of robbers and killers and shipwrecked, in the swamp...  I don't know if I can make it.' No!

He says, I KNOW there's a wreath of righteousness waiting for me (2 Timothy 4:08). "I KNOW."  So what do we learn from that? We can KNOW!

Paul talks about qualifying. It doesn't use 'qualifying' but one time in the King James, it uses the word 'approved.'

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)

The Concordant uses the word "qualified," that's a little closer to the Greek.

2 Tim. 2:15 Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth. (CLV)

1 Corinthians 11:19 ...that those also who are qualified may become apparent among you.

James 1:12 happy is the man that is enduring trial: for becoming qualified, he will be obtaining the wreath of life, which the Lord promises those loving Him.


Mark,

We can know, we don't have to live a life of uncertainty. But we do still have to live our lives, and as you've stated, endure to the end. But we can know.

But few have the spiritual maturity to not let pride seep in by acknowledging this truth, that's where the problem lies.

I think I'm missing something here. Above Ray says we can know, and in this paper it seems Ray says we dont know.

'FREE WILL' IS AN OXYMORON . . . . . . Biblestudy Jan. 2007

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html

If God is determined that you and I will obey Him from here on out, guess what?  There's no other alternative.  We will do it!  But the only thing is, He doesn't tell us for sure that we are one.  Christ knows those that are His (John 10:14).  We don't.  Philippians 2:13, God will do it, He works in you to will and to do.  But then verse 12, with fear and trembling.  Why?  We don't know for sure we are one. 
Paul said less I become a castaway (1 Cor 9: 27).  But you say, 'how could Paul become a castaway?'  He said it could happen.  He said I don't take it for granted, it could happen you know, unless I be a castaway, so I'm going to endure to the END. 
Isn't that what Christ said, he who endures to the end (Matt 24:13), all the way to the end.  The runner who stumbles and falls 2 feet before the finish line, does not win the race.

Most likely I'm just misunderstanding something and maybe someone could help me out. Is it we can know IF (big if) we endure? Or is it we can know that we are saved already because we are enduring? Or is it neither? What exactly does it mean to "endure". Is it the same as overcoming the beast within, dying to self, not being like the world etc? What exactly is Ray saying we can know and what exactly is Ray saying we dont know?

Not trying to disagree with anyone, just trying to understand.

G.Driggs

[Kat]

Hi George,

To me there are nuances to this 'knowing.' When you have your eyes opened, when you are learning these truths and doing what you have learned, you 'know' you are in Christ.

1John 2:3  Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
v. 4  He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
v. 5  But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

1John 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
v. 19  And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

So if the spirit is indwelling, we are living differently, we have put on the "new" man/woman and you 'know' if this is happening in you.

Eph 4:21  if indeed you have heard Him and were taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus.
v. 22  For you ought to put off the old man (according to your way of living before) who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.
v. 24  And you should put on the new man, who according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

Now can we be certain and sit back and feel we have it made? Of course not. Here is some of Ray study 'Can We Lose God's Spirit?'


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html ------

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life...

Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit.  Now back to verse 15. 

Can we lose out... well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before. 

1 John 3:15  Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is "staying or "REMAINING") in him.

So the Greek is staying or remaining. Now if you just read that without all the background that I'm giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God's abiding life. No, he already has it. The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it's in you. Do you follow that? It's in you. 

He's not talking to Barbarians here or infidels, he's talking to the congregation who have the spirit of God. But he says if you hate your brother the spirit of God will no longer stay with you, it will no longer be in you. If the Spirit of God is not in you, you are no longer His.  Then you are going to the judgment. That's just how simple that is. All through these Scriptures if you read carefully, maybe it doesn't have it just like this, but this is just a poor translation. But if you read Concordant and Rotherham and all, they will tell you to 'stay' - 'remain.' It means to remain, but it won't remain. You see it's there, but it's coming out.
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Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death (this is talking about baptism in the sixth chapter of Rom.), we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:

Philippians 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Is there a point in time where you say no matter what I do I'm going to be in the former resurrection, because I have this and that promise and pledge? Was Paul lying when he said, "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." Meaning I'll do everything that I know of or can think of to be sure that God is pleased with me. "By any means," Why would he say that if it's a done deal? 

Notice it, how do we come up in the likeness of His resurrection? "If" at the beginning of the verse, "If we have been planted together in the likeness of His death." We know what baptism pictures, it pictures dying to yourself, dying to the evil, carnal, lustful things that are bad about human nature. You die to that and that's what baptism pictures.
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Rom 8:13  For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but IF (that little word again) you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
v. 14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

That's how you do it. There it is!
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2 Peter 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
v. 5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
v. 6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
v. 7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (love).
v. 8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

v. 10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF (there that little word "if" again) ye do these things (but here is the consolation, here is the inspiration, the hope and assurance...), ye shall never fall:

Now that's pretty good. So all these things Paul is talking about here, I bring it into subjection, I bind it, I turn myself into a slave for Christ, lest I myself should be rejected or turned away or unapproved or disqualified. But if we "do these things."
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(YLT) 1 Cor 9:27  but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others--I myself may become disapproved.

So while you are doing right you are approved, qualified, you're in the race. But if you give up or you turn or you just sin willfully, willingly, knowingly hate your brother, then it's gone. It can happen. Maybe I just need to explain why is that so.

Because the flesh is weak. Know how much spiritual stuff we know, well we are still very very weak. If we knew we didn't have to persevere, guess what? Maybe most of the time or at least some of the time... we wouldn't. 
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[G. Driggs]

Thanks Kat, I think I understand a little bit better now. I see what you mean by nuances.

I never thought of it as already being in me. How did it get there? Did God do it simply by causing me to believe? I mean was that like the start?

This is very encouraging stuff.

G.Driggs

[Kat]

Hi George,

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
v. 4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5  having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6  to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

So "before the foundation of the world" it is already determined who wold be chosen. I would think from the beginning of your life you are already being prepared if you are a the few to be chosen... BUT you would not know this. We are deceived like all the rest and go to church and there we come to "first love" God and soon fall away. We go many years living, gaining experience of the darkness in this world, in bondage to the lusts of the flesh and sin.

But at some point, God knows when He will call us out of the darkness/deception, open our eyes to the truth, but most importantly of all begets us with an earnest of the Holy Spirit/Advocate/Comforter/Jesus Christ indwelling. From that point on He will work in us to prepare us as He sees fit.

I would think with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you would have to see a big difference in your attitude and where your interest are, you become a "new" man/woman. A believer would not have to fear that they just can't do what it takes... we certainly can't, but Christ in us will not fail and He has no intention of losing any of the Sheep.

John 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

But do be aware that if the Apostle Paul had some concerned about becoming "disqualified," then we should not be over confident.

1Co 9:26  Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
v. 27  But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

So have confidence in Jesus Christ, "the vine" and we can know we have the Spirit indwelling, because of the fruit and good works that Christ will produce in us.

John 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
v. 5  I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

John 15:16  You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
v. 9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
v. 10  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

mercy, peace and love
Kat