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Author Topic: Greatest Challenge - own house  (Read 15688 times)

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tau

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Greatest Challenge - own house
« on: April 03, 2011, 09:23:37 AM »

Hi  All
When Jesus said that one would face the greatest challenge from one's house, I thought I could easily overcome them as all I have to do is put His word before everything (in general, I would like to think I succeed). Then I had to deal with the situation of having told and showed my wife countless scripture that a true disciples walk with God is forever progressive and upwards, I then hit a brick wall. My wife think I am not supportive if I tell her that I truelly do not want to attend general church services anymore. I am more than willing to discuss bible with people of the same mindset so we edify each other but i want to worship in truth and in spirit. We are agreed that Jesus said 'why call me Lord and not do what I say?', but her concern is one has held and outgrown so many view points (old church teachings) that my wife think I am confusing her. So, she now asks that I must just do it for her - accompany her to church. I do it but uncomfortably - 'a man who is persuaded against his will is still of the same view'. I want to know is it okay to still go with my wife (show of support) even if I generally find church teaching a bit tolarable if taken with a pinch of salt.

Now I am told I must NEVER dream of having kids out of church (thought about it, never took a position on it as calling is for individuals) We all get called at different times. How does one get around this? Jesus said - if you love your wife more than me, you cannot be my disciples. I am weary of how one is called to run, lest at the end I should also be disqualified! Help!
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Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 12:57:41 PM »

Hello tau. Here are some verse for the comfort you so desire.
I hope this is of some edification.


John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Micah 7:6  For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.

Matt 10:35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matt 10:36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

 Gal 6:9  And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

James 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Tim 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 

2 Cor 11:26  In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Acts 14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith,being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 

James 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
James 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
James 1:4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




Peace...Mark
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tau

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 02:17:38 PM »

Thanks Mark, you just made it painfully obvious!! ;D ;D So, are you suggesting that one continues to attend the service and take it on the chin knowing that all trials and discomfort work on our faith? :-\ Once you know and can now 'HEAR' the WORD, it becomes a bit of a challenge to sit through services especially where you can tell that the truth is being hanged on the line for expediency by the church >:( and you know you can't have an input even at cell meetings as you are always seen as going 'against' what the pastor teaches and therefore 'destroying' the faith of others!! ??? So, when the call to come out of her my people is made, you now for the first time really understand what it means ;D. but thanks for the scriptures, i will bury myself in them!! ;D

regards
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Duane

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 02:33:57 PM »

tau...that is a tough one that i would rather a moderator advise you on than myself.  In making the best of a bad situation, until you
really get grounded, I would suggest that you not "take on" the church and it's teachings lest you get swallowed up.  HOWEVER, in a
non-confrontational way you could jot down notes of the sermon that you feel are contrary to your beliefs and show her (introduce)
her to some of the teachings you know from here and talk about them.  Pray about the timing.
I have to do the same thing with my wife and trust the Holy Spirit will do the rest.
This is all I feel comfortable in writing.  Will pray for you.
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Kat

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 03:13:42 PM »


Hi Tau,

This is just my take on this, no real wisdom here, just my opinion. Certainly this is a difficult thing for you as you have had your eyes opened and you know truth, but your wife is having trouble understanding. You care for her and see she is struggling with leaving church and friends, so you want to make this as easy for her, but you also want to do the best thing for your family. So is to continue to attend and drink the heresy of the church a help her or yourself? I can see that you may want to continue going to church and be a witness against church heresy, to remain silent in the midst of such blatant falsehood would be putting your light under a bushel.

Mat 5:15  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
v. 16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

But this may cause your wife (and you as well, if you are not well grounded in this truth) more distress than not going to church at all and will surely get you thrown out as well. So this is serious for you as the head of the household and accountable to direct your family on the proper course, as far as you know it to be. Just continue to pray for God to let you know what you should do. I will pray for you as well.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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gmik

  • Guest
Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 11:13:48 PM »

Hi Tau and greetings!

Have you been reading Ray very long and just new to the forum or new all around?? ;)

Your dilemma is serious in your family.  It was a few months after being dragged to Ray's site that I quit going to church-but my husband was in complete agreement.  Could I have done it on my own??  I honestly don't know. 

I can't stand to hear drivel that I don't agree with.  But, your wife is precious to you and hasn't had her eyes opened yet.  If you are a strong longtime Christian and can read the Bible during the sermon or sleep or whatever maybe you could go.

I still attend a bible study (just so I can go out to lunch w/ my old girlfriends) and somethings drive me nuts but I just don't say anything. But I have been studying this truth for over 5 years and feel pretty confident in what I believe.  At lunch, I may insert a kindly word or too about a translation error (aion -age instead of eternal), but mostly my friends remain clueless.  One time I even said "I don't believe everything she teaches" and they all just looked at me like my spoon missed my mouth or something!!!  Clueless....but I love these gals and want to keep seeing them.

Tau, you must be in prayer and trust your heavenly Father to let you know when, where, what for your life.  We can only share our stories, give advice, or show you scripture.

One thing for sure, READ, READ, READ everything over and over again from Ray's site.  Keep your Bible handy.  Have e sword and the interlinear in Greek/Hebrew on your desktop.  And Walk In Love, always!!!

Keep posting on the forum as you struggle thru this.  You are not alone!!!  Nor are you the first one or unique in this problem.

God Bless you and your wife.  You will be in all our prayers!!!!
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DougE6

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2011, 04:25:19 AM »

Hi Tau
Church with your wife is an hour a week. It is not that much to sacrifice. It certainly is NOT going to affect you, once you have left. One can never go back. At least, I am sure I could not. I would go insane thinking the reality that they blindly accept.  It all comes down to what your wife expects.  If she thinks you are to change your mind and believe/agree/think as her, then I would have to draw a line. If she knows you are agreeing to accompany her even if you do not agree with all that is said, that seems like a nice compromise.  It seems like a loving thing to do. Try to find some common ground. I have many Christian friends who know quite well what I believe and I speak of it often, when I can. I socialize with them. I debate sometimes. But I make sure my actions and my life really really reflect the greatest sign of having Christ in you..your love. Your gentleness.  Your love of righteousness. In everything you do, reflect Him. 

My wife also does not embrace what I think, because she loves her church. She witnessed my entire struggle, most strongly these last 10 years, and as head of the household she respects them, but they do not really live in her. She cannot see how bad the doctrines are. She loves her parents. She loves the church she grew up in. She cannot face that they all could believe something, in the end is evil. Maybe in theur hearts they don't. I don't know. We do not fight over it. I go most Sundays, out of deference to her, but I have taught all my children what I believe even as they also go to church.  I appreciate whatever they preach that is good, somethings are.  I sing songs if they speak to my heart. I love all people, even those in church. I really do. You won't win anyone (normally) by scriptural debate. The ground of their heart must be fertile to receive the word. Let your life, your gentleness, your love, your character, be the witness that your beliefs are worthy of God.  It is your attitude and heart which is most important, not whether you need to sit through a church sevice once a week. I say just speaking for myself, big deal. So I go to church. That is not much of a sacrifice at all. I worship God 24 hours a day. And everyone who knows me, knows it.
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tau

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2011, 05:23:31 AM »

I LOVE U GUYS!! ;D ;D :D It is at times encouraging to hear how the stelwards of faith are forging on as they assemble themselves before Mount Zion. Yes, church within a church, not bound by hand made structures but thankful that the spirit of the Lord moves amist the church structures gives a comfort. Now, we go direct as the veil of the church has been torn, beautiful! :D, only if all could see as you do  :o!  I take comfort in reading 2 Peter 2, all of it. Agreed, not all that is taught in the church is bad or wrong, but its the subtle deception and play on truth which is done so cleverly as almost to deceive even the elect that gets to one. And when you point it out and scripturally back it up, you are seen as if you are continuously looking for faults, I guess then there must be too many ;D ;D! The church members general take on what is being taught is gun, stock and barrel, there is no getting around it. I like questioning things and if someone gives me back up scriptures or evidance on any issue for that matter, I concede and accept a higher view. I 'study' though what is presented so I can make it my own, lest I also fall into the trap of accepting things on face value! :D , its the getting emotional that really gets to me ;D ;D, when it comes to what the Holy Scriptures say, most people just accept without questioning lest they offend God, or is it the pastor or church  ???. I normally keep quite which at times is seen as not being interested at matters of God, except when at home and engage with my wife on what the holy scriptures say, then I light up!! and she says 'this is hard sayings', i tell her but they are in your bible and at some stage since you have passion for the Lord, you will have to realise that if its misplaced, it will be as painful an experience the 5 virgins that almost made it had ::) then she ponders.

But I really appreciate all the input and it somehow makes this journey less lonely. At times one wishes all could see what one see, 'for once i was blind, but now i see', that is the most beautiful saying i ever read anywhere in a very long time! I just love you guys and I will put on the full armor of God, so after all is said and done, i will continue to stand! ;D ;D ;)
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gmik

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 04:16:14 PM »

DougE6---wooo preach it brother!!!  Love is key isn't it??  spiritually leaving Babylon is more important than if you physically walk into a building...I know God will bless you for your love for your wife!

Tau-- :D You seem more relaxed and happy!!  Praise God!

both of your posts blessed me!!
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daywalker

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 05:44:35 PM »

Hi  All
When Jesus said that one would face the greatest challenge from one's house, I thought I could easily overcome them as all I have to do is put His word before everything (in general, I would like to think I succeed). Then I had to deal with the situation of having told and showed my wife countless scripture that a true disciples walk with God is forever progressive and upwards, I then hit a brick wall. My wife think I am not supportive if I tell her that I truelly do not want to attend general church services anymore. I am more than willing to discuss bible with people of the same mindset so we edify each other but i want to worship in truth and in spirit. We are agreed that Jesus said 'why call me Lord and not do what I say?', but her concern is one has held and outgrown so many view points (old church teachings) that my wife think I am confusing her. So, she now asks that I must just do it for her - accompany her to church. I do it but uncomfortably - 'a man who is persuaded against his will is still of the same view'. I want to know is it okay to still go with my wife (show of support) even if I generally find church teaching a bit tolarable if taken with a pinch of salt.

Now I am told I must NEVER dream of having kids out of church (thought about it, never took a position on it as calling is for individuals) We all get called at different times. How does one get around this? Jesus said - if you love your wife more than me, you cannot be my disciples. I am weary of how one is called to run, lest at the end I should also be disqualified! Help!

Hello Tau,

First, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your wife regarding your situation.

Thankfully, my wife has been pretty receptive of my new beliefs (well, it was new 3 years ago...), probably because the church doctrines weren't grounded into her like they were me and many others. She was raised in church, but her family isn't as "religious" as many others are. Though, this being said, she has put me in this similar situation a few times. We went to visit her grandparents for Mother's Day the past two years, they all attended church, and I met then afterwards for lunch. Before going she tried to convince me to go to church also because "it was Mother's Day", and she also tried to pull the "do it for me" card. I told that I loved her, and I respected her, and requested that she would also respect me by not forcing me to go somewhere I didn't want to go. She was reluctant at first, but agreed nonetheless; we all met for lunch afterwards and all was well. Her family didn't question me for not attending church, and I didn't say anything disrespectful while they were discussing what took place in church. (not that sharing the truth would have been disrespectful, I just didn't feel that was the right place or time; besides if God had something to say to them through me, He would have said it anyway).

I know several people here face a ton of adversity from their families and friends and I pray for you all daily. I have yet to meet any from my family or friends, though I know it's coming eventually (I have a few uncles in particular who I know are dying to speak to me regarding some of the things I've showed my mom... personally I can't wait!).

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aqrinc

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 01:52:59 AM »


Hi Tau,

We each must walk the walk alone with Christ. The Spirit Will and Does keep us wherever we may go. Short story, my wife of 36+ years now, thinks i am a lost heretic, most others think so too btw. But i have learned that what i feel matters not, and she is one of those little one that Jesus said: it is better to put a millstone around our own neck and be cast into the sea, than harm them. So then it must be very important for you to walk that walk and learn how to work all things together (just like your Father From Above).

Today she still believes that John Hagee and Joel Osteen are her teachers, and guess what, i no longer get upset or even try hard to show her any errors. My reason, when Christ Is Ready, she will, like i was, be dragged kicking and spitting mad, to The Throne Of Grace. So rest and learn how to be God-Like in this small task brother, it is easier to learn when not kicking against the pricks.

(Phillips NT) Php 2:12-13 So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility. For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.
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cjwood

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 03:02:19 AM »

hello tau.  you have received some excellent advice and counsel to your questions.  duane gave a good idea about going with your wife and writing down some things you hear being preached, which you have been shown by His Spirit are heresy/false teachings.  then showing your wife at home, using the things ray has shared with us regarding truths of the scriptures on the specific things you wrote down from the sermon.  great place to start with her i think. 

also, remember the commandment given to 'come out of her my people, mystery babylon' is another example of first the physical, then the spiritual.  the final removal of yourself from the physical church, may be done in increments for your specific situation.  only our Father Creator knows the outcome.  but, He has begun a good work in you.  only He can.  He is not finished with you, or with your wife.  be patient and take this to Him often in prayer.  He is faithful, and can be trusted.  :)  please let us know how things progress.

claudia
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Duane

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 03:56:29 AM »

One of the highlights of each day is reading everyone's posts!  It is so encouraging to see us propping each other up as we all climb our own family/relative "mountains".
J'ever feel like the one who resisted all the teachers, scholars, philosophers and scientists,
plus religious leaders back in Columbus's/Magellon's day--when it was a KNOWN, PROVEABLE, and UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED FACT that the earth was flat; and,  the sun revolved around the earth?  Sometimes the HERESY cost "ALTERNATE THINKERS" their heads! (Certainly "our kind" were the laughing stocks and "family embarrassments" in society.)
Like us, "SELECTED" people probably wondered "why is it ME that has to realize the scientific truth and "buck the comfortable mainstream" with my radical thinking! 
But, NOW that I DO KNOW  W H A T   I  know, how could I ever go BACK to believing the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth!  WHY did God "bless" ME with the insight--like it or not?!  Is it MY job to convince others of scientific fact or let God "open minds"?
Now, should I be "good"- and accompany my loved one to "class" and hear the next anticipated lecture on "Earth Flatness and Topography"?  Will I be able to shut up about  "gravity" and AVOID ASKING why the oceans don't drain off the edge of the earth? 
They say "it's lonely at the top!" but "it's lonely being 'the few'" also!  Be faithful to truth!
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Marky Mark

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 02:08:09 PM »

Quote
  So, are you suggesting that one continues to attend the service and take it on the chin knowing that all trials and discomfort work on our faith?


Hello tau.

  It matters not what I have to say but rather what The Word of God has to say.If we do not live by every word then surely we do a disservice to Jesus and His Father.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The coat of many colors that symbolizes Gods Truths and purpose for His chosen should be worn and not hung in a closet somewhere,out of site.

Gen 37:3  Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.
.
When we participate in worldly church matters we do not let our true light shine.

Luk 11:33  No man, when the light has been lighted, puts it in a secret place, or under a vessel, but on its table, so that those who come in may see the light.


 When we come out of her others will see we have been faithful to Gods Word and not to false doctrine.   

Col 1:21 And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles"
Col 1:22 by His body of flesh, through His death, to present you holy and flawless and unimpeachable in His sight,


We must die to self so that we may live.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Rom 6:13 ...Yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Being a watchman has high accountability and just rewards.

Eze 3:17  Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


And of course the reward is...

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Col 3:24  Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.


We must always keep The Word and overcome babylon and in return The Word will keep us.

Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Rev 2:27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28  And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.




Peace...Mark





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DougE6

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2011, 03:22:25 AM »


Hi Mark

That is all very well and good, what you wrote, and I was edified by reading it, and encouraged to press on to the high calling by reading it, but going from the general principles you cited to the specific circumstance, in addressing Tau's question, what are you counseling?  Hopefully not too hard a line?

How about these scriptures, that are also part of the every word that comes from the mouth of God? These scriptures that directly tell us how to treat others, specially our wives and husbands?

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:28  So ought men to love their wives, as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself.

What is Love? What is the definition of love?
Co 13:4  Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
1Co 13:5  or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
1Co 13:6  it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
1Co 13:7  Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8  Love never ends.

Love doesn't insist on its own way. It endures unpleasantness. It always hopes. It doesn't give up.  Love will bear the weakness of the weaker. If someone has less faith, and they can't see what I see, how should I act towards them? How did Paul treat weaker brothers in the faith, who still thought eaten food sacrificed to idols had power, or other weak false doctrines, like believing some days were better than others? 

Rom 14:5  One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6  The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Rom 14:7  For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
Rom 14:8  For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Rom 14:10  Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11  for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Rom 14:12  So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

I bear with my  the less complete understanding of  Gods ways and plans with others (like my wife)  in my family with love.  I am willing to IN LOVE to  subject myself to things that are less than my spiritual understanding. And who is to say that I am in any whit better?  Jesus judgment seat will bring everything to light.

 But as far as meeting people where they are at;  have  I not done the same in the non spiritual realm many times  when I play with my kids? of course!  I know multivariable calculus and differential equations. Do I talk to my fifth grader of such? LOL.  When  my kids were babies I spoke baby language to them.  And it was entirely appropriate.

How should a believer treat a non believing spouse?  Lets see what the scriptures say....

1Co 7:14  For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
e 3:7  Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
1Pe 3:1  Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,
1Pe 3:2  when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

Here Paul says that a wife could win over her unbeleiving husband by good conduct, without even a word!! Why cant men do the same?

I think one should do whatever is the most loving in every situation.  Why? because your superior knowledge and faith is subservient to love.....

1Co 13:1  If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2  And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3  If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Co 13:13  So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


All your works and understandings are not more important than how you treat your spouse, and how you treat your neighbor.  And the correct path in any situation must be carefully put through the LOVE test. And I will try to win my spouse with Godly nuturing and forbearance,  especially if  I feel that is what God is calling me to do, especially in light of these scriptures.
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bob

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 06:08:07 AM »

DougE6, Amen and Amen. Bob, Leesburg FL.
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 01:25:10 PM »

I already see an area I typed in this post that needs to be corrected....!  :o

Quote
He will show you even if you mess up and do the wrong thing.  He always knows how to get people back on the right path.

We don't "mess up" I guess.  I still have a long way to go.  Just an example of how much the heresies taught can have a lasting effect from wrong teaching.

On the contrary, we "mess up" all the time. That's what "sin" means--to miss the mark, make a mistake, i.e. "mess up". Just because we were 'caused' to do it by various influences surrounding us, and just because God already 'knew' in advance that we would do it, doesn't mean we didn't "mess up". Hope this helps  :D

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Marky Mark

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 05:00:43 PM »

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are you counseling?  Hopefully not too hard a line?

1Jn 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.



Hello DougE6.

I do not see how loving your spouse [or to love in general] correlates to not coming out of the babylonian system of things.Are you saying that we must stay grounded in the evil doctrine of the worldly church in order to have approval of our wife,kids,friends or neighbors? To leave behind our carnal way of thinking and to keep His Spiritual Commandments is how we are to give God all of the Praise and Glory.This is the greatest act of love a man can do for His Creator.The general principles that you speak of in the Scripture I posted are for the Spiritually mature,not babes in Christ [I am assuming that tau has read Rays material]. We must come out of her and stay out of her if we are to finish the race,and be faithful to the end. If God has you in the church of satan to soothe the non believer,well,that's ok, because that is where God will have you to be.But when we do not abide in His Word, the truths that we have been given will also be taken away if we do not obey the Holy Spirit.

 When we obey God in Spirit and Truth that is true love that we can rejoice in. Just as the wife must submit to the husband so shall the husband and the wife submit to Christ,he is our head and we are the body.When Jesus is the focus of our lives then and only then can one have a full understanding of what it is to love our family members as we ought.If we have a true yearning and commitment to follow Christ and to love Him as we should,we then can begin to live by every word of Christ.

When we put the physical in front of the Spiritual the only thing left is judgement.All Scripture is for the admonition of Gods true Faithful and when one lives His words from without and not from within, the Door in the heavens cannot be opened and His True doctrine cannot be given.As Ray has said so often once you learn a Spiritual Truth,don't ever let it go.To me that is some sound advice from a sound teacher.


Peace...Mark
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DougE6

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2011, 03:40:09 AM »

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If God has you in the church of satan


OK, Hi Mark :)
How do you know if I could/might/possibly be one of these?.. ???

Rev 3:4  Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.  Rev 3:5  The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

or these? ???....Rev 3:10  Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

or these? ???....Rev 3:12  The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

or these? ???... Rev 2:10  Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life....

or these? ???  Rev 2:13  "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Or, maybe these? ???.....Rev 2:24  But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Rev 2:25  Only hold fast what you have until I come.
Rev 2:26  The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,

In case it was not understood, these are taken from the seven churches where Jesus was walking in their midst. He gave correction and praise, both. And some received both praise and correction, at the same time.

Notice Jesus has some good things to say about some of the people in some of these churches.  How is this possible? Even in these churches where satans throne is. He clearly said some had the "right stuff" to rule with him. Some had the right doctrines, the right heart, the right teachings.  Is being  physically present in a Church going to negate my heart, my love, my obedience, my holding on to Him?  Is the physical building that strong? I say that only rhetorically.  I know you know the answer. You know the building, the physical is not the Spiritual.

I am only speaking like this cause of what I took as your implication, in that highlited statement.  You do not understand how I can out of Love do what I do, and give forbearance to my wife, or others,  and still remain out of babylon.  Fine. But I do. And I am at peace that Jesus will judge all motives and hearts someday.  Including mine :-[  And He will decide who was actually in Babylon and who wasn't.  Actually, to the point, He will judge our works. And whether our works were motivated by love, and done in love, and put others before ourselves.

I do not have any quarrel with your understanding of how we are to OBEY Jesus. I so agree with that. I just do not think you understand/see that love is higher than all doctrine in the SAME manner as I do.  So we have different viewpoints.  I myself, would rather be totally obedient to Him in love and love all others as He does, than have all the correct doctrinal understanding in the world.  And this is from one who painfully wrestled for 17 years, because of my love for my fellow man, to wrest myself from the doctrine of eternal torment, because it was too horrible for me to hold, even though I was raised and believed fully in the strictest fundamentalist baptist church doctrine out there, for YEARS, from the tender age of 12.  And this was even before I read any of Ray Smiths wonderful writings. I am grateful to Ray for filling in many of the gaps I would never been able to. But even with all that, I still would rather have love for Christ, shed abroad in my heart, motivating me to pure obedience, to loving righteousness and hating wickedness,  dying to myself, than have all the correct understandings that I now have (except that I could not EVER believe in eternal punishment, for that belief was destroying me) and not have this love and obey just because it was a rule.  I think true spirituality is measured in the depth of your dying to self and the amount of how much you obey Christ and do His works, out of Love.



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Stacey

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Re: Greatest Challenge - own house
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2011, 04:52:52 AM »

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
Mat 5:44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
Mat 5:45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same?
Mat 5:48  Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Christendom is the enemy of the truth, not by free will but being caused to be that way, they are the enemy of the truth. We are commanded to love them and to not hold them in contempt. To go to the church building with your wife might not be the husbands or wife's best choice of places to be but knowing that God will work it out for him or her in His time, is it not reason enough for the husband to love his wife in her time of weakness of the truth and endure for a season together with her the tasteless tales of Christendom? I think so.

Are we concerned that we might be braking or not keeping one of the commandments?

Mat 22:35  And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him:
Mat 22:36  Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37  And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39  And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

We follow all of the commandments if we follow these two. Personally, I don't get hung up on whether or not I'm slipping on a commandment or missing the mark here or there since knowing that I am striving to follow these two.

Where was Jesus when He answered the Scribes and Pharisees? I'd say right smack in the middle of the church. He loved them all, He went to church with what would some day be His wife. Knowing full well her weakness but enduring it all, suffering to the bitter end knowing the outcome will be glorious in that she would come around to the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus went the distance for a unbelieving bride. Can we not do the same for the weaker of the two in our marriages? I think so.

Are there consequences for going to church. Sure there are. It would not be a pleasant place to be for any of us that are believers of the truth. However, Jesus is the keeper of our salvation, not us. He is the builder of it all, the One that laid the ground work and the Finisher of the whole thing. We cannot guard against our salvation by not attending the church building. We cannot save our soul by keeping away from certain things, or this and that. Nope, Jesus is the keeper. In the end, it wont matter whether or not we attended church with our un-believing husbands or wives, why? Because,

Rom 8:38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39  nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am full aware that we are commanded to "come out of her". We ARE "out of her" whether we go to the church building or not. It makes no difference. God has dragged us out of her. That much is done. We cannot un-do that part by going to the church building.

Tau you ask,

 "I want to know is it okay to still go with my wife (show of support) even if I generally find church teaching a bit tolarable if taken with a pinch of salt."

My opinion is yes it is OK.
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Stacey
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