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Are you afraid of God? / Is Jesus God? / Who is God?
eggi:
Hello all!
These latest studies that Ray has done are really inspiring, and they are so deep. At times I feel it's hard to follow what Ray is saying because of the magnitude of the subject, and I need to pay close attention and read/watch a section several times to be sure that I catch it all (I'm not even sure that I caught it all...). The questions he is raising now are really big, and yet, as usual, he is able to answer them in "layman's terms". A question such as "Who is God?" is so fundamental, and we have only scratched the surface of them.
In the last months, I've been doing a little thinking and studying on my own. A couple of months ago I ended up in a futile discussion with some JW's who came to my door. Their Watchtower doctrine says that Jesus is NOT God. Also, to steer clear of any reference to Jesus as God they always insert "Jehovah" (who they say is the Father), even though the Greek says "theos" or "kyrios". This discussion made me look closer at the question: Is Jesus God?
I found a connection in Revelation and Isaiah that to me shows with certainty that the Holy Scriptures teach that Jesus is God. However this certainty raises other questions...
Here goes, of course you will correct me if this is all wrong:
We all understand that it is CHRIST JESUS who speaks to John in Revelation, so the following is spoken by Christ, and He explains about Himself:
1. And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things said the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; (Rev. 2:8)
Again, this is clearly Christ speaking, as the Father has never been DEAD and then ALIVE again.
2. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Rev. 22:13)
The "first and the last" is not only that, but also "the beginning and the end", and the "Alpha and Omega". Although these are basically three ways of saying the same thing, it is important in this line of reasoning that we see the connection between these titles which are mentioned in the above verses. The one who is the first and the last (and Alpha and Omega, and the beginning and the end) is the same who was dead and is alive. This is Jesus Christ.
3. And he said to me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev. 21:6-7)
The Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end (and the first and the last) will be God to the one who overcomes all things. If Jesus is not God, then how can He be "his God"? We notice that Jesus didn't say: My father will be his God, and he will be His son... No, Jesus is talking about Himself as God.
Here are two other scriptures from Isaiah which speak of "the first and the last":
"Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. (Isa. 48:12)
"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6)
So, if the "first and the last" in the Old Testament is the same "first and the last" as in the New Testament, then there is no God apart from Him. So is Jesus the only God? Apparently not:
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)
But are there any other indications that Jesus is God? Yes, I think so, let's see:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, said the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev. 1:8)
The "Alpha and Omega", the "beginning and the ending", is the one "which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".
And I heard the angel of the waters say, You are righteous, O Lord, which are, and were, and shall be (see Rev. 1:8 to see that this is Christ), because you have judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are your judgments. (Rev. 16:5-7)
Who is doing the judging of the world? Why, Jesus Christ: Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:31) So the Lord God Almighty is judging.
Now the question remains; There is ONE GOD, the Father, but Jesus Christ is also God (as I concluded after the reasoning above and also from everything Ray has written about this!). As Ray has said; God is the family name, and God is an expanding family. The family includes the Father and Christ, but why then did Paul write: There is ONE God, THE FATHER. Doesn't this exclude everyone else from being God? No, as Ray has said in his message from April 2nd: The fact that Jesus and His Father are "ONE GOD," is only part of this enigma.
I wonder if the word "in" is giving us a closer indication as to what Paul meant:
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him (family again); and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)
So all things are OF the ONE GOD, THE FATHER, and we are IN HIM (THE ONE GOD), and we are in Him BY Jesus Christ (who is also part of the family of God).
Does anyone else see something hidden in this verse, something which relates to the relationship between Jesus Christ and His Father, the ONE GOD?
When God wills, we will understand this more fully!
The Father is God, Jesus is God - and: Even Universal Reconciliation becomes an axiomatic certainty and not even debatable when we understand just who "the ONLY TRUE GOD" (John 17:3) really is!
God bless you all!
Eirik
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: eggi on April 03, 2011, 05:18:21 PM ---Does anyone else see something hidden in this verse, something which relates to the relationship between Jesus Christ and His Father, the ONE GOD?
--- End quote ---
Excellent, excellent study Eirik...very well spoken. :)
While I don't have much to add to answer this question, I remember one thing Ray said that has stuck with me:
Excerpt from March 2011 bible study 'Is Jesus God?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):
I think we should do away or should have done away… well it’s pretty hard to do it now. But we should have never got in the habit of translating in English Yahweh and Elohim and Adonia, we should have never translated it god. God is a pagan heathen title. Why should we call the God of creation after some pagan title? Why should we? After all we know He’s not a pagan god, yet we’re strapped with the idea that the word Elohim is translated the true God and the god of the pagans. God of creation that was Elohim and Mohoc of the Canaanites that was elohim too.
I would have made a distinction. I would have translated it something like this, since we know what God is from other Scriptures and so on. I would have translated it something like this, in the beginning the Almighty Family created the heavens and the earth. What’s wrong with that? To me that’s what God is. Takes care of the ‘one,’ family, takes care of the plural, family has more than one unit.
Or we could say, the Almighty Divine Family, saying let Us make man in Our image. You could throw the word divine or divinity in there, that okay that’s a good word. It takes care of the plurality of the word Elohim. We could call Him the Almighty Divine Family. What’s wrong with that?
To me the pagan title god or in Germany gott, it doesn’t do justice to the God of creation.
We are familiar with lots of words anyway that are used with a singular pronouns and so on, but consist of multiple units. We speak of the United States of America, United States, plural. One nation under God or it used to be one nation, I don’t know what it is now. One nation, united, states plural. One nation, okay. This isn’t rocket science, it’s not hard to understand.
You can have an orchestra, one orchestra, 150 members. It doesn’t mean since you have more than one you have more than one orchestras? The accusation is, ‘if there is more than one talking then you are saying there is more than one God.’ No I’m not and neither is the Scripture saying that.
I think when Ray finally is ready to do this study, in as much detail as God gives, it will turn how we use the word 'God' on it's head. For so long, we have thought of God as a single, omnipotent being. I think what God really is, is an omnipotent family. A growing family in which we will be gathered into, as Christ is.
Jesus always spoke of 'the one true God' [John 17:3] as Father. A Father is the head of the household or family [Eph 5:23]. I think the unity Paul says we are to keep [Eph 4:3] is the family unit of God. Like Ray says in his Trinity paper heading: Is God a closed Trinity or an expanding family? I think it is more of a family than any of us have realized. Can't wait for the next study/paper!
Marques
eggi:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on April 03, 2011, 05:39:21 PM ---I think when Ray finally is ready to do this study, in as much detail as God gives, it will turn how we use the word 'God' on it's head. For so long, we have thought of God as a single, omnipotent being. I think what God really is, is an omnipotent family. A growing family in which we will be gathered into, as Christ is.
Jesus always spoke of 'the one true God' [John 17:3] as Father. A Father is the head of the household or family [Eph 5:23]. I think the unity Paul says we are to keep [Eph 4:3] is the family unit of God. Like Ray says in his Trinity paper heading: Is God a closed Trinity or an expanding family? I think it is more of a family than any of us have realized. Can't wait for the next study/paper!
Marques
--- End quote ---
I seem to think along these lines too, Marques. But of course, we need to have all the scriptures to back it up! Again, patience is needed as we pray and expect what God (should I use that word ?) reveals to us.
God bless you,
Eirik
Duane:
Eggi...If I were to "tackle" JW's, I would go to John 14 and John 15 as they are "peppered" with references where Jesus is trying
to express Himself to His disciples. Also, Jesus is very explicit about Himself with "the woman at the well" John 4:34 and John 7:14-52 with His explanation to the Jews re: Who He was and His relationship to the Father.
At 12 years of age, jesus told His "parents" that He was "about his FATHER'S business". The baptism of Jesus "this is my beloved SON in whom I am well pleased".
Only God can open their (and our) eyes to the truth of His word. Remember: It is NOT your responsibility to "gather the lost sheep"--but rather, that of the shepherd.
I am sure the moderators will direct you even more specifically--as they often do me!
gmik:
Good thread guys!!!
Hey Eggi, hope married life is treating you well!!!
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