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Author Topic: Today in paradise?  (Read 6919 times)

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nightmare sasuke

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Today in paradise?
« on: July 09, 2006, 02:50:10 AM »

Does anyone have any evidence against the popular translation, besides other translations?
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Falconn003

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2006, 02:49:03 PM »

There is a very well written responce to an email by Ray on the web site if you would take the time to read it, I'm sure it would enlighten you somewhat to this mystery. And it is not just another translation but more of how translations lose the spiritual meaning of scripture.


Rodger
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nightmare sasuke

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2006, 08:29:57 PM »

There is a very well written responce to an email by Ray on the web site if you would take the time to read it, I'm sure it would enlighten you somewhat to this mystery. And it is not just another translation but more of how translations lose the spiritual meaning of scripture.


Rodger

I don't see why a dying Jesus would bother adding another word to his sentence. Why say "today" if the word was not important? That's what bothers me.
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orion77

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2006, 11:03:23 PM »

Mathew, Mark and John do not say anything about this, except that when they were crucifying our Lord, all the people were mocking Him, even the ones He was crucified with.

Here is the clv version of this verse, maybe this can shed some light:


Lk 23:43
And Jesus said to him,  "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."


Notice how it is stated in the clv..He is saying to him today, not necessarily that 'today' he would be with Him in paradise, but simply spoke those words today, not specifically saying when he would be in paradise.

Hope this helps.

God bless,

Gary
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prarrydog

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2006, 11:25:36 PM »

  Nightmare,

  You seem to be very confused on alot of issues.  I would suggest that you work on one topic until you have your answer and then move on to the next.  It sounds to me, with all the questions you have had here lately that you need to get back to the basics.  I think you are confusing yourself.  I know you are confusing me.  

You said

I don't see why a dying Jesus would bother adding another word to his sentence. Why say "today" if the word was not important? That's what bothers me.

I say

Joh 3:11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Why the second verily.  Why say "I say unto thee".  There are many words which Jesus said that we think can be eliminated because we think they are not important.

  Maybe the word "today" has to do with this...

Mar 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

The answer to your puzzle lies in the scriptures.  What do the scriptures support.  Are people dead right now or are they in paradise?

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing;
       they have no further reward,
       and even the memory of them is forgotten.


God be with you
with love
Scott
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nightmare sasuke

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2006, 12:23:26 AM »

 Nightmare,

  You seem to be very confused on alot of issues.  I would suggest that you work on one topic until you have your answer and then move on to the next.  It sounds to me, with all the questions you have had here lately that you need to get back to the basics.  I think you are confusing yourself.  I know you are confusing me.  

You said

I don't see why a dying Jesus would bother adding another word to his sentence. Why say "today" if the word was not important? That's what bothers me.

I say

Joh 3:11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Why the second verily.  Why say "I say unto thee".  There are many words which Jesus said that we think can be eliminated because we think they are not important.

  Maybe the word "today" has to do with this...

Mar 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

The answer to your puzzle lies in the scriptures.  What do the scriptures support.  Are people dead right now or are they in paradise?

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing;
       they have no further reward,
       and even the memory of them is forgotten.


God be with you
with love
Scott

I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."

By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs.
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prarrydog

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2006, 12:35:31 AM »



   Nightmare,

   Did you read Ray's response to his e-mail that Rodger pointed out. It explains it alot better than I can.  I like number 7:

AFTER Jesus was crucified, dead, and buried, and AFTER three days and three nights, and AFTER He was resurrected, He met to Merriam, "Do NOT TOUCH ME, for NOT AS YET HAVE I ASCENDED TO MY FATHER" (John 20:17). So even AFTER His resurrection, He was NOT IN A PLACE CALLED PARADISE WITH THE THIEF, but rather conversing with Merriam and the Disciples for forty days.

This blows the theory of 'TODAY" out of the water.

Good luck
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nightmare sasuke

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2006, 12:37:10 AM »



   Nightmare,

   Did you read Ray's response to his e-mail that Rodger pointed out. It explains it alot better than I can.  I like number 7:

AFTER Jesus was crucified, dead, and buried, and AFTER three days and three nights, and AFTER He was resurrected, He met to Merriam, "Do NOT TOUCH ME, for NOT AS YET HAVE I ASCENDED TO MY FATHER" (John 20:17). So even AFTER His resurrection, He was NOT IN A PLACE CALLED PARADISE WITH THE THIEF, but rather conversing with Merriam and the Disciples for forty days.

This blows the theory of 'TODAY" out of the water.

Good luck

There's two arguements Orthodoxy can present against that. Both are stupid, but they do not think so:

[1] The Father is not in paradise, but paradise is a section of hades.

[2] Jesus was talking about his physical ascent into the sky.
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prarrydog

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2006, 12:48:32 AM »



Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The tree of life is in the midst of paradise.  So if we find the tree of life we find paradise.

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Paradise is not in Hades.



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prarrydog

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2006, 12:53:26 AM »




[2] Jesus was talking about his physical ascent into the sky.
Quote

   Not sure what this means.  You will have to explain it to me.

Thanks
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 12:54:20 AM by prarrydog »
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nightmare sasuke

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2006, 01:24:32 AM »



Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The tree of life is in the midst of paradise.  So if we find the tree of life we find paradise.

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Paradise is not in Hades.





Thanks! Now I can shoot down that one arguement.
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nightmare sasuke

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2006, 01:26:17 AM »




[2] Jesus was talking about his physical ascent into the sky.
Quote

   Not sure what this means.  You will have to explain it to me.

Thanks

In other words, he was talking about a specific ascent, when he left the Apostles by ascending into the air.

They might argue Jesus was talking about a separate event.
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Chris R

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2006, 12:25:01 AM »

Hello, Night

No one will ever "convince" anyone of these truths....trying to "win" a argument with folks about these truths  is something you will soon find fruitless..

Chris R
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chumkin

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2006, 09:24:51 AM »

in luke it does not say today, it say to day,

lets translate chumkin style :D


on this day you will be with me in paridise.  what day????

Hemera

of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom


i could be wrong, but  you know me :P ;D ::)


but seeing this Jesus actully used the lest  amount of words he had to. he couldnt very well explain ressurection to the  guy.

he just got done teaching psalms 22, so he simply said" on hemera youll  be in  paridise.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 09:38:40 AM by chumkin »
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chrissiela

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2006, 10:33:55 AM »

I agree with you Chuck, if that is ok?  :o

I think it is a matter of knowing what "today" means, spiritually (not physically):

Heb 3:6-8 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:


Heb 3:13-16 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.


Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

My 2 pennies.  ;D

Chrissie
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nightmare sasuke

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2006, 12:10:51 PM »

Hello, Night

No one will ever "convince" anyone of these truths....trying to "win" a argument with folks about these truths  is something you will soon find fruitless..

Chris R

Why write a paper with holes in it?
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chumkin

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2006, 12:19:25 PM »

the holes are for the binder :P :D ;D :D :o
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gmik

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2006, 12:32:28 PM »

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TimothyVI

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2006, 02:31:56 PM »

in luke it does not say today, it say to day,

lets translate chumkin style :D


on this day you will be with me in paridise.  what day????

Hemera

of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom


i could be wrong, but  you know me :P ;D ::)


but seeing this Jesus actully used the lest  amount of words he had to. he couldnt very well explain ressurection to the  guy.

he just got done teaching psalms 22, so he simply said" on hemera youll  be in  paridise.

I don't think I understand this interpretation, but that is nothing new. I get lost quite often.
In Luke, to day was translated from the Greek word semeron, which means "this very day". Not from the word hemera.
Ray's answer seemed much clearer to me. The comma was in the wrong place. Jesus told the thief today, that he would be in paradise with Him some time in the future.

Tim
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chrissiela

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Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2006, 03:18:08 PM »

Tim,

That very well could be. I do not deny that.... but in looking at "today" and what/when that is, it just doesn't seem to matter (to me) where the comma is (which when moved, if used, changes the emphasis and meaning of the statement).

So rather than argue over where the comma goes, it just seems easier (for me) to see that it does not matter.

However. IF Christ said: "I tell you the truth today, ...."  Was he not then talking about a physical/earthly/24HR day?

And the only reason that bothers me is because Christ said that His words are SPIRIT.

SO.... IF Christ said: "..., today shalt thou be with me in paradise", I can see that he was not talking about a physical/earthly/24HR day. But was speaking a spiritual Truth as it relates to a particular "DAY".


The same word (sēmeron) is used in Hebrews where it mentions "While it is called TODAY":

Heb 3:12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:13  But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 3:15  While it is said, To day  if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.


And I see what Christ is telling the thief on the cross as a spiritual truth.... that it is "while it is called today" that IF WE HEAR HIS VOICE that we are to NOT harden our hearts.

It is not UNTIL "Today if ye WILL HEAR my voice" and "harden not your hearts" that we are allowed to partake of the Tree of Life.

I see this as true for me, for you, for the thief on the cross.... for ALL.

It's just how I reconcile it in my own mind and I how I support it with the scriptures. Right or wrong.

Blessings,
Chrissie
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 03:30:13 PM by Chrissie »
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